Was the Temple Destroyed Because of Hatred?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/328-was-the-temple-destroyed-because-of-hatred

Some claim that it was, and that the way to rebuild it is to study the Halakhoth of Lashon HaRa.  This approach is spurious. What else did Hazal say about the reasons for the Temple's destruction?

Why don't we have the Temple today? Could the fact that we have not built it have something to do with it?

[muman613]

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/328-was-the-temple-destroyed-because-of-hatred

Some claim that it was, and that the way to rebuild it is to study the Halakhoth of Lashon HaRa.  This approach is spurious. What else did Hazal say about the reasons for the Temple's destruction?

Why don't we have the Temple today? Could the fact that we have not built it have something to do with it?

Even if a building was built today do you really think that the building would stand? I don't think that a vast majority of Jews are prepared to accept the repercussions of having a realy true Holy Temple where the Shechina dwells. I am all for taking steps to rebuild the Temple and look forward to the day when we have it. But I also don't think that by just building a building that the Shechina will dwell in it as she did in the two Holy Temples.

I have heard many Rabbis address what needs to be done to ensure that the third Temple will be the Final Temple which will stand till the end of time, and certainly be the Temple of the times of Moshiach.

I will add that I think that we should be prepared to build it and not allow others to occupy it, as the muslim waqf is doing currently. We should be taking the steps to remove all impediments to rebuilding so that when we have the required unity of the nation of Israel, we will be able to build it.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Even if a building was built today do you really think that the building would stand? I don't think that a vast majority of Jews are prepared to accept the repercussions of having a realy true Holy Temple where the Shechina dwells. I am all for taking steps to rebuild the Temple and look forward to the day when we have it. But I also don't think that by just building a building that the Shechina will dwell in it as she did in the two Holy Temples.

I have heard many Rabbis address what needs to be done to ensure that the third Temple will be the Final Temple which will stand till the end of time, and certainly be the Temple of the times of Moshiach.

I will add that I think that we should be prepared to build it and not allow others to occupy it, as the muslim waqf is doing currently. We should be taking the steps to remove all impediments to rebuilding so that when we have the required unity of the nation of Israel, we will be able to build it.

 Of course it will stand if we do the necessary things to ensure that. Dont the Mooslims want all of Israel destroyed? Why is some tall building in Tel-Aviv standing (while they want to destroy it) and yett the Temple wont stand if we rebuilt it? We should obviously drive gthe enemies out of Israel, re-built the Temple and do what is necessary to protect it and the nation from any harm.
  This is the real solution and not the fantasy we unfortunalty hear too often. I suggest you hear the shiur before commenting on it.

[muman613]

Tag,

I really try to like this rabbi, I was listening to it and unfortunately he lost me. He seems to see the worst in all Jews, ascribing all kinds of intentions which are not there. He saw a sign saying that "Ahavat Chinam" is the rectification for the destruction and then he went on to assume that they believe the Temple will fall from the sky. These kinds of things are the very problem with the Jewish people today, always looking at the other and ascribing things which are not there to them.

I would rather just go back to ignoring this rabbi, if you find this enlightening, then I will not complain. But sincerely I do believe that Jewish unity is essential for rebuilding the Temple and having the divine presence dwell there. I cannot see Hashem dwelling with the Jewish people today. I do not want to imagine his rage at the state of the Jewish people today.

The evil prophet Bilaam attempted to curse the Jewish people and all that Hashem allowed him to say were blessings. So many Jews today engage in the very same sin that they did when the second Temple was destroyed. I believe that the sages of the Talmud genuinely believed that this is what led to the destruction of the Temple. Because if they were more united, and did not hate each other, they would have been strengthened against the Romans.

I do not believe that the Temple will 'fall from heaven' but in a way Hashem will strengthen the people to want to rebuild it. It is a combination of factors, we must make the effort and Hashem will respond measure for measure...

I am not criticizing but I do not find this approach helpful in my case...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Tag,

 He saw a sign saying that "Ahavat Chinam" is the rectification for the destruction and then he went on to assume that they believe the Temple will fall from the sky.

  Tell me that you did not hear this word at least 1ce today? I could bet you a million bucks that you did. And I have heard some of these people before and yes they do advocate that the Temple will fall from heaven and other similar things. I can also almost bet that in none of the shiurim you heard today was it mentioned that the Temple should be physically built by us. I'm not hating on them, but these are facts of that type of Haskaffa that is prevalent. Their is no such thing as "Ahavat Hinam" their are the laws of the Torah including loving one's fellow Jew when it is appropriate.

[muman613]

  Tell me that you did not hear this word at least 1ce today? I could bet you a million bucks that you did. And I have heard some of these people before and yes they do advocate that the Temple will fall from heaven and other similar things. I can also almost bet that in none of the shiurim you heard today was it mentioned that the Temple should be physically built by us. I'm not hating on them, but these are facts of that type of Haskaffa that is prevalent. Their is no such thing as "Ahavat Hinam" their are the laws of the Torah including loving one's fellow Jew when it is appropriate.

I was listening to the speakers from TorahAnyTime, Chazzak, and Naaleh and none of them said the Temple will fall from heaven. I listened from 10AM-5PM to all the Rabbis. I would not listen to them if they said this because I believe that we must make the effort to build it otherwise it will never be built.

But this is an aside. I do believe that baseless hatred was a primary cause of the destruction. If you could please explain to me what the Rabbi said was the real reason for the destruction I would like to know. Maybe I will listen to this tomorrow just to discover what he believes the reason for the destruction was.

Here is the list of Rabbis I listened to:

http://torahanytime.com/index.php?s=Tisha-Bav-Schedule-2012

• R. Label Lam
• R. Zecharia Wallerstein
• R. Shimon Kessin
• R. Nasan Tzvi Sherman
• R. Label Lam
• R. Bentzion Shafier
• R. Zecharia Wallerstein
• R. Yitzchak Oelbaum
• R. Motti Miller
• R. Eliezer Krohn
• R. Akiva Rutenberg
• R. Israel Itshakov
• R. Mordechai Kraft
• R. Igal Haimoff
• R. Label Lam
• R. YY Rubenstein
• R. Shmuel Skaist

And I have said that there are some that believe this and I understand that there are sources which support such belief. I don't throw out the idea because it is possible, though improbable that that will be how it happens. I believe Hashem wants us to take the initiative.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I was listening to the speakers from TorahAnyTime, Chazzak, and Naaleh and none of them said the Temple will fall from heaven. I listened from 10AM-5PM to all the Rabbis. I would not listen to them if they said this because I believe that we must make the effort to build it otherwise it will never be built.

But this is an aside. I do believe that baseless hatred was a primary cause of the destruction. If you could please explain to me what the Rabbi said was the real reason for the destruction I would like to know. Maybe I will listen to this tomorrow just to discover what he believes the reason for the destruction was.

Here is the list of Rabbis I listened to:

http://torahanytime.com/index.php?s=Tisha-Bav-Schedule-2012

• R. Label Lam
• R. Zecharia Wallerstein
• R. Shimon Kessin
• R. Nasan Tzvi Sherman
• R. Label Lam
• R. Bentzion Shafier
• R. Zecharia Wallerstein
• R. Yitzchak Oelbaum
• R. Motti Miller
• R. Eliezer Krohn
• R. Akiva Rutenberg
• R. Israel Itshakov
• R. Mordechai Kraft
• R. Igal Haimoff
• R. Label Lam
• R. YY Rubenstein
• R. Shmuel Skaist

And I have said that there are some that believe this and I understand that there are sources which support such belief. I don't throw out the idea because it is possible, though improbable that that will be how it happens. I believe Hashem wants us to take the initiative.

 I know most of them, and I know what they have been saying this year and the past as well. Not saying everything they said was bad or wrong, but am saying that their definitely is the missing of some things that need to be said. What did they speak about? The internet and its dangers, about getting along in personal lives/relationships, stories from the holocaust. All good things and all have points but what was not mentioned is the physical rebuilding of the Beit Hamikdash, the expelling of our enemies, the setting up of a Jewish kingdom in the Land. Am I wrong?

[muman613]

No you are not wrong. They did not discuss removing the arabs. While I agree that this is a necessary step in rebuilding, and it is a primary obstacle to rebuilding, I also understand that we have Jews who need to have more emmunah and bitachon before they are prepared to take these steps. We need to strengthen ourselves, the Jewish people, and I believe that the reason the Rabbis spend more time talking about repairing our own spiritual connection is because without this we will never have the courage to look our physical enemies in the face and say "This is Ours" and "Get your filthy hands off my Temple".

I think both you and I agree that getting rid of the arabs is a major step in rebuilding the Temple. But can we really expect a miracle of such large proportions without having the majority of our people along with us...

[edu]

My reply to muman613 who said:

Even if a building was built today do you really think that the building would stand? I don't think that a vast majority of Jews are prepared to accept the repercussions of having a realy true Holy Temple where the Shechina dwells. I am all for taking steps to rebuild the Temple and look forward to the day when we have it. But I also don't think that by just building a building that the Shechina will dwell in it as she did in the two Holy Temples.

There are many Torah commandments connected to the building of the Temple and the offering of sacrifices, burning the ketoret, lighting the Temple Menora, etc.
Just like any commandment that we do have access to today, I would like it to be done at the highest level, but if it's a choice of a low level fulfillment of the commandment or nothing at all, I will take the low level option, so too, regarding the Temple, sacrifices, Ketoret, Menora, etc.
I would like to have them at the highest quality level but if it is a choice of doing the bare minimum or nothing at all I will choose the bare minimum.
Another point to raise, is that our sages said there were 5 ways that the 2nd Temple was inferior to the 1st  Temple. In fact the survivors from the 1st Temple period cried when they saw that the 2nd Temple was rebuilt in a much inferior way and their cries overcame the expressions of Joy of the younger generation, who had only experienced the newer Temple. But nevertheless, our Sages went ahead and built, to fulfill whatever commandments were in their ability and they also knew, that it is easier to jump from an intermediate stage of a mediocre Temple to a high quality Temple, than it is to jump from nothing at all to a high quality Temple.
Also read the book of Ezra. At the start of the 2nd Temple period we see that much of the Nation of Israel were on a low spiritual level. This did not hold back the building project.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Even if a building was built today do you really think that the building would stand?

As long as they don't use faulty engineers, it should be fine.    Do you see other buildings that "can't stand" when people try to build them?   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Tag,

I really try to like this rabbi, I was listening to it and unfortunately he lost me. He seems to see the worst in all Jews, ascribing all kinds of intentions which are not there. He saw a sign saying that "Ahavat Chinam" is the rectification for the destruction and then he went on to assume that they believe the Temple will fall from the sky. These kinds of things are the very problem with the Jewish people today, always looking at the other and ascribing things which are not there to them.

But that is there.  Why don't you talk to them and ask them?   They will tell you.  They don't hide it.     

'If we just do enough mitzvahs to "tip the balance" (so to speak), it's going to appear there.'    Either you do not realize just how many thousands of Jews believe this, or you simply don't want to hear it!

How about this one, when someone says (on the day of tisha b'av, or the day before tisha bav) something like 'if we wake up tomorrow and moshiach hasn't come yet' then we'll do xyz.   As in, some halacha that is for tisha bav, or for the day after tisha bav.     
In what way could moschiach magically appear in one day when he's not known or heard of the day before, except in a miraculous whirlwind that probably involves a temple landing too?   This is just the mindset, the magical mindset.   That all the problems are going to be swooped away in some instantaneous event that overturns the entire world order.   And of course they misinterpret an aggadic statement about moshiach being born on tisha bav and they transform it into something literal.   Wait, so a baby will appear tomorrow and we'll be morphed into Eretz Yisrael somehow?   Or an adult?  lol.     

That's the same mindset that goes with temples falling from skies, appearing instantly, and us not having to do the practical steps that would lead to us building an actual temple.

I would rather just go back to ignoring this rabbi, if you find this enlightening, then I will not complain. But sincerely I do believe that Jewish unity is essential for rebuilding the Temple

Jewish unity is not achieved by ignoring people.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I was listening to the speakers from TorahAnyTime, Chazzak, and Naaleh and none of them said the Temple will fall from heaven.

Saying this is kind of nondescript.   There is a big difference between openly saying, "We will build the temple physically"
or "The Temple will fall from the sky"

vs.   IMPLYING either of these things by saying other things.     Sometimes people hear what they want to hear.   But just because someone didn't say point blank "The Temple will fall down from heaven" they could still have given an entire lecture based on that premise.

[muman613]

Saying this is kind of nondescript.   There is a big difference between openly saying, "We will build the temple physically"
or "The Temple will fall from the sky"

vs.   IMPLYING either of these things by saying other things.     Sometimes people hear what they want to hear.   But just because someone didn't say point blank "The Temple will fall down from heaven" they could still have given an entire lecture based on that premise.

You are making an assumption. I have heard most all of these Rabbis explain that we need to make the effort to rebuild the temple. Often some of them say that the arabs will have to be dealt with. I know several of those Rabbis are zionist and pro rebuilding the Temple.

[muman613]

Here is my question. Assuming we all said that we want to rebuild the Temple now is there any way in reality we could take it at this time. Today a group of Jews wanted to daven at the mount and they were denied entry. Do we have the weapons to overthrow the authority?

I would like to see the Temple cleansed of the muslim abomination. I dream about it every day and I would fully support any organization which is working toward the goal of re-establishing Jewish sovereignty on the Temple mount.

But I fail to see the practical way of achieving it. Maybe some of you could propose a method to reclaim the Temple mount?

[edu]

But I fail to see the practical way of achieving it. Maybe some of you could propose a method to reclaim the Temple mount?

I will answer a question with a question. What will you tell the Charedi who says to you, "I see no practical way of retaining Judea and Samaria. Maybe you could propose a method"?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman I know some of them personally. And some others I have meet. If you don't believe me in describing that haskaffa then go ahead and ask them (besides knowing what they believe in and focus on from their lectures as well). I have no personal "beef" with any of them, but my point is that the "other" point needs to be addressed and spread as well.
 And you asked about how to achieve things- for starters start talking about it and getting it into people's consciousness. That is the very least and first step. Once enough people realize and know these "controversial" things we are closer to actually doing something about it.