Orthodox Jews get glasses to blur out women

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You think they would actually have a death wish? I see what your saying, but that's not what I meant. What I meant was that it's preposterous to think that they would just openly commit suicide as you say.

No but they are putting themselves in a sakana, and I think that's a really obvious point.   How can it be denied?   

I asked you the suicide question merely as a rhetorical device.

[The One and Only Mo]

But by saying it's a really dumb idea, I'm not telling anyone to not stay away from bad things.

And Judaism is not machiavellian.  halacha operates by accounting for both the means and the ends.   We cannot just do things any way we want because we think it's a good end.      Tzedek Tzedek Tirdof is often explained how we have to pursue justice properly, not just pursue justice (why the word is repeated).

What do you suggest as an alternative? Just have the women come into their field of vision and let whatever happens happen?

[The One and Only Mo]

No but they are putting themselves in a sakana, and I think that's a really obvious point.   How can it be denied?   

I asked you the suicide question merely as a rhetorical device.

A sakana=suicide. Putting yourself in a dangerous situation on purpose is self-destructive. Why would you think they would want to do that?

[The One and Only Mo]

Never mind. You're right. We should all just figure out a different way, and they are all willingly and knowingly endangering their own lives in happiness. I'm sure they didn't think about the all of the danger and safety hazards, and they will be happy to kill others and themselves. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What do you suggest as an alternative? Just have the women come into their field of vision and let whatever happens happen?

Why can't women be in the field of vision?    Men need to learn how to control themselves.    Men should not be walking around with the intention of oogling whatever is around.    I've been secular and now religious.  I know there are two different kinds of walking around.  And going around with that intention or not - is definitely in the person's control.   If a guy is walking around "looking for material," (so to speak) a pair of glasses isn't going to help them anyway, they are being negligent and of course that leads to sin and at least sinful thoughts.     

If you are leaving bet midrash and walking home and there happens to be a lady passing you on the sidewalk, so what?   On shabbos, when I'm alone and a woman by herself passes me by I greet them "good shabbos."   Same as if it was a man.   But if you are walking around waiting for the moment any lady will pass or come near so you'll have the chance to check out her goods, of course you're going to stare/look in a bad way.      I just don't get why the fact that women are around means men have to sin.   That's not the case.   

If you are talking about women walking around in bikinis, then that makes sense, but most places on earth that is not happening.

And if a woman just "in the field of vision" is a problem, then how can someone do business with a woman, or shop in a supermarket, or have to TALK to a woman (like a shadchan for their kid or friend/relative, or maybe a rebitzen to inquire about their rabbi) etc etc. 
See, it starts with walking in the street, then it will go to buses, then schools, then shopping malls, then supermarket, etc.   This is how this crazy stuff gets started.    Because it's an easy "jump" to all those other things once it's accepted for walking on the sidewalk.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

A sakana=suicide. Putting yourself in a dangerous situation on purpose is self-destructive. Why would you think they would want to do that?

They want to do that because they think the ends justifies the means.  Just as you said before!     

That is how most stupid behaviors are committed.    Most people are not malicious, even if misguided.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Never mind. You're right. We should all just figure out a different way, and they are all willingly and knowingly endangering their own lives in happiness. I'm sure they didn't think about the all of the danger and safety hazards, and they will be happy to kill others and themselves. 

Well let's see.   They are walking around with purposely distorted and obstructed vision.     Yes, that endangers their lives.  Therefore they are purposely endangering their lives.   They just think it's for the "greater good" of blocking out the sight of any women.

Killing others and themselves?   ....you're getting emotional again.

And by the way, No, Sakana does not = suicide.   Sakana is danger.



See this is what happens when you have frum papers that edit pictures to remove women (including women who are dressed modestly) so we cannot see the image of any woman or woman's face in a newspaper, and they take out a modestly dressed married lady from an old picture of the chofetz chaim which is blatant stalinism and revisionist history.   It gives people (apparently people like you) the impression that even SEEING a woman is a sin.    Even if it's just her face or she's completely modest.    That's not a sin.

[The One and Only Mo]

Why can't women be in the field of vision?    Men need to learn how to control themselves.    Men should not be walking around with the intention of oogling whatever is around.    I've been secular and now religious.  I know there are two different kinds of walking around.  And going around with that intention or not - is definitely in the person's control.   If a guy is walking around "looking for material," (so to speak) a pair of glasses isn't going to help them anyway, they are being negligent and of course that leads to sin and at least sinful thoughts.     

If you are leaving bet midrash and walking home and there happens to be a lady passing you on the sidewalk, so what?   On shabbos, when I'm alone and a woman by herself passes me by I greet them "good shabbos."   Same as if it was a man.   But if you are walking around waiting for the moment any lady will pass or come near so you'll have the chance to check out her goods, of course you're going to stare/look in a bad way.      I just don't get why the fact that women are around means men have to sin.   That's not the case.   

If you are talking about women walking around in bikinis, then that makes sense, but most places on earth that is not happening.

And if a woman just "in the field of vision" is a problem, then how can someone do business with a woman, or shop in a supermarket, or have to TALK to a woman (like a shadchan for their kid or friend/relative, or maybe a rebitzen to inquire about their rabbi) etc etc. 
See, it starts with walking in the street, then it will go to buses, then schools, then shopping malls, then supermarket, etc.   This is how this crazy stuff gets started.    Because it's an easy "jump" to all those other things once it's accepted for walking on the sidewalk.

You've just described their world, by the way. There are people who don't do any of those things. I'm not here to judge them. That said, it's not about self-control. It's about looking at a woman. That's it. It's not about anything else but looking at a woman. Plain and simple.

[The One and Only Mo]

Well let's see.   They are walking around with purposely distorted and obstructed vision.     Yes, that endangers their lives.  Therefore they are purposely endangering their lives.   They just think it's for the "greater good" of blocking out the sight of any women.

Killing others and themselves?   ....you're getting emotional again.

And by the way, No, Sakana does not = suicide.   Sakana is danger.

yes, sakana=danger which is life threatening. According to you that's what they are doing intentionally. Not caring about who gets harmed.

[The One and Only Mo]

Well let's see.   They are walking around with purposely distorted and obstructed vision.     Yes, that endangers their lives.  Therefore they are purposely endangering their lives.   They just think it's for the "greater good" of blocking out the sight of any women.

Killing others and themselves?   ....you're getting emotional again.

And by the way, No, Sakana does not = suicide.   Sakana is danger.



See this is what happens when you have frum papers that edit pictures to remove women (including women who are dressed modestly) so we cannot see the image of any woman or woman's face in a newspaper, and they take out a modestly dressed married lady from an old picture of the chofetz chaim which is blatant stalinism and revisionist history.   It gives people (apparently people like you) the impression that even SEEING a woman is a sin.    Even if it's just her face or she's completely modest.    That's not a sin.

Seeing a woman is wonderful. We should all do it. Every piece of Torah advocates that we should look at women. Judaism evolves with the times, get with the times and start looking at women.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You've just described their world, by the way. There are people who don't do any of those things.

It depends what kind of neighborhood.   Chasidim won't say hello to a woman and a chassidic woman won't say hello to them.   But other neighborhoods people will greet each other and it's considered normal.   Even very frum people.

But a person who doesn't go around "scoping out babes" doesn't need fuzzy glasses.   For example, those chassidim who woulnd't even say hello to a woman and would barely even look at a woman in the street.   They really don't have need for glasses.    And the perverted guy that is going around looking to oogle women on the street will not be helped by fuzzy glasses because he is negligent.   The whole thing is pointless.   

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What do you suggest as an alternative? Just have the women come into their field of vision and let whatever happens happen?

 One does not need to stare and not everyone on the street is dressed like a $!&^. I know their are men who stare, whistle and even say stupid things on the streets to women passing bye, I have seen this and some do not even have shame doing that. On the other hand the majority of people would not and do not stare and do these stupid things at the very least because of shame. Now someone wanting or getting these glasses wouldn't they be getting them because of fear of G-D (and not wanting to make sin) if soo why cant they look away if they happen to see an immodest lady on the street, or on the bus or something? Wouldn't at the minimum the way a normal person would behave be applicable to such a person? And by the way its the second look that is problematic and not the first where you happen to be exposed to immodesty. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

yes, sakana=danger which is life threatening. According to you that's what they are doing intentionally. Not caring about who gets harmed.

Yes, they are prioritizing making sure a woman never enters their field of vision OVER the possible harm it does to themselves and the danger it puts themselves in by obstructing their vision.    That's a description of the reality, not an opinion.

[The One and Only Mo]

It depends what kind of neighborhood.   Chasidim won't say hello to a woman and a chassidic woman won't say hello to them.   But other neighborhoods people will greet each other and it's considered normal.   Even very frum people.

But a person who doesn't go around "scoping out babes" doesn't need fuzzy glasses.   For example, those chassidim who woulnd't even say hello to a woman and would barely even look at a woman in the street.   They really don't have need for glasses.    And the perverted guy that is going around looking to oogle women on the street will not be helped by fuzzy glasses because he is negligent.   The whole thing is pointless.   

A 17 year old with raging hormones who never spoke to a girl on his life will be unaffected by the woman in front of him? Even if he looks away, if she comes into his field of vision for a split second, it still triggers a small thought.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Seeing a woman is wonderful. We should all do it. Every piece of Torah advocates that we should look at women. Judaism evolves with the times, get with the times and start looking at women.

So a frum lady should be edited out of a photo of the Chofetz Chaim?    This is a famous example of stalinish censorship where they wiped out a frum lady from the picture to pretend that Chofetz Chaim would only be surrounded by men.   But a woman being in his vicinity is not a sin.   Women and men alike always used to go to big rabbis and get brachas and advice, etc.   Or just happen to live next door and be in the picture lol.  And seeing a frum woman in a picture is also not a sin, she's completely modest and nothing sexual about it, you can barely even make out the faces in the photo its an old black and white fuzzy picture.   

You're not making any sense.   You're just putting words in my mouth to make me appear frei.    That's how you win an argument? 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also the extreme separation of the sexes leads to greater problems including the shidduch crises where people are not getting married. Also in some cases to homos and child abuse.
 Also making a bad reputation for the Torah and Judaism which do not advocate such insane things.

[The One and Only Mo]

Yes, they are prioritizing making sure a woman never enters their field of vision OVER the possible harm it does to themselves and the danger it puts themselves in by obstructing their vision.    That's a description of the reality, not an opinion.

If that is, indeed, the case, do you really think the gedolim would allow that? It's worse to do cause harm than to look at a chick for a second. If they are that crazy, then they aren't religious at all. Anybody who commits an act like that is just as treacherous as the suicidal sickos who run the country and would rather have Arabs live there and take away Jewish land.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

If that is, indeed, the case, do you really think the gedolim would allow that? It's worse to do cause harm than to look at a chick for a second. If they are that crazy, then they aren't religious at all. Anybody who commits an act like that is just as treacherous as the suicidal sickos who run the country and would rather have Arabs live there and take away Jewish land.

 Who? allow what?

[The One and Only Mo]

So a frum lady should be edited out of a photo of the Chofetz Chaim?    This is a famous example of stalinish censorship where they wiped out a frum lady from the picture to pretend that Chofetz Chaim would only be surrounded by men.   But a woman being in his vicinity is not a sin.   And seeing a frum woman in a picture is also not a sin, she's completely modest and nothing sexual about it, you can barely even make out the faces in the photo its an old black and white fuzzy picture.   

You're not making any sense.   You're just putting words in my mouth to make me appear frei.    That's how you win an argument?

You think they shouldn't do what they feel most comfortable doing? Just understand their society for a second. They are as against anything that has to do with a woman as we are against Obama. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying the reality in their society is that do whatever it takes to not see women. Period. However, if it causes danger to people, it's obviously aveira gorerres mitzva, which of course is assur.

[The One and Only Mo]

Who? allow what?

The gedolim would allow them to endanger themselves and others? Why would the gedolim paskin that it's allowed to do something which is assur?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

A 17 year old with raging hormones who never spoke to a girl on his life will be unaffected by the woman in front of him? Even if he looks away, if she comes into his field of vision for a split second, it still triggers a small thought.

If you buy yourself a small trunk like the one Houdini used to lock himself in, get a straight jacket and tie yourself up, then have your friend lock the trunk with you inside, you will never encounter a single woman, not even your grandma.    Is that the solution to life's problems?

a 17 year old with raging hormones is normal - God made it that 17 year olds will experience that.   part of growing up is learning to deal with that and behaving properly despite those hormones.      a woman "entering the field of vision" is something a grown man has to be able to deal with because there are women in the world and you can't hide.   

And one day you will have a wife.  She will be woman.   You will have to deal with her in ways other than just sexual stuff!  She's a person.  And so is the 65 year old lady you see in the corner of your eye on the street pushing a stroller.   A woman, not a sexual object.   By erasing women from historical pictures, and putting glasses so that woman will not be seen in the street, you are actually making them into purely sexual objects.   By learning to deal with the emotions and hormones, a 17 year old has to teach himself that women are not just sexual objects.    I don't know how to explain it but it seems like something so obvious.      But since you have been culturally influenced that even a woman's face in a photograph is a sinful temptation, there is really no way to explain reality to you I guess.

[The One and Only Mo]

If you buy yourself a small trunk like the one Houdini used to lock himself in, get a straight jacket and tie yourself up, then have your friend lock the trunk with you inside, you will never encounter a single woman, not even your grandma.    Is that the solution to life's problems?

a 17 year old with raging hormones is normal - G-d made it that 17 year olds will experience that.   part of growing up is learning to deal with that and behaving properly despite those hormones.      a woman "entering the field of vision" is something a grown man has to be able to deal with because there are women in the world and you can't hide.   

And one day you will have a wife.  She will be woman.   You will have to deal with her in ways other than just sexual stuff!  She's a person.  And so is the 65 year old lady you see in the corner of your eye on the street pushing a stroller.   A woman, not a sexual object.   By erasing women from historical pictures, and putting glasses so that woman will not be seen in the street, you are actually making them into purely sexual objects.   By learning to deal with the emotions and hormones, a 17 year old has to teach himself that women are not just sexual objects.    I don't know how to explain it but it seems like something so obvious.      But since you have been culturally influenced that even a woman's face in a photograph is a sinful temptation, there is really no way to explain reality to you I guess.

I don't believe in that stuff, I just believe you gotta do what you believe is right. If they believe it's right, then let them do it. I'm not in their shoes. Just let them do whatever they need to do to survive.

[The One and Only Mo]

That said, I commend anybody who acts in the interests of Shomayim, so long as it is purely Lishma, and not some crazy aveira gorreres mitzva which you seem to think it is. If it truly is, then it's not a mitzva at all. Rather it IS murder, and you can't argue that it's not murder.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not a bizarre fringe practice carried out by a few extreme Charedi that is being blown up to make religious Jews look like a bunch of loons?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If that is, indeed, the case, do you really think the gedolim would allow that?   

What gedolim?   Allow what?

There are gedolim who are in control of what glasses get sold in stores and what things people buy?   You have been misled to believe that Jewish society is run like the wizard of Oz where some rabbis sit behind the curtain and direct everything.

That is another thing you have to learn.   People behave as they wish and gedolim do not control it.   If enough people do something it becomes a fait accompli.   Whether a gadol originally said "Do this" or not.    And similarly even if only a small amount of people are doing something, it's a free economy, even if a gadol says "Do not buy xyz" there will still be people who do because they don't follow that gadol, or some other gadol said it's ok, or their personal rav.  Or they see others doing it so they accept it.   Etc.


Consider crox.   When they came out, it became a big fad that orthodox Jews wear crox on yom kippur.    Very very popular and common.  Because it's decent footwear but it's clearly not fancy shoes and no leather.   But you can stand and pray in it for hours.   So lots of people got it.  Remember a few years ago Rav Eliashiv ZT"L said crox are forbidden for YK?   Consider how many Jews still wear it.   Because people have their own rabbis and most did not ever say you can't wear crox.   And very few people sat down and said, well since that big gadol said it, I have to decide now maybe I can't really wear them.  Some people reacted like that but many ignored it actually.