Author Topic: Michelle Obama sings "Movin' On Up" from The Jeffersons (hilarious JTF video)  (Read 5123 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
There are various opinions about whether Kol Isha is a complete prohibition for men to listen to women singing...

Here is a good discussion of the parameters concerning this question:



http://koltorah.org/ravj/The%20Parameters%20of%20Kol%20Isha.htm


The Parameters of Kol Isha
by Rabbi Howard Jachter

The Gemara (Berachot 24a) records the prohibition of Kol Isha. In this essay, we shall outline the parameters of this issue, as delineated by twentieth century Halachic authorities. We shall discuss the source of the prohibition and its applicability in our times. Then we shall discuss the questions of whether this prohibition applies to Zemirot, tape recordings, and radio broadcasts. We shall conclude with a brief discussion regarding husband-wife restrictions, and men hearing young girls sing.

The Source of the Prohibition

The Gemara (Berachot 24a) states, “The voice of a woman is Ervah, as the Pasuk [in Shir Hashirim 2:14] states ‘let me hear your voice because your voice is pleasant and appearance attractive.’” Rashi explains that the Pasuk in Shir Hashirim indicates that a woman’s voice is attractive to a man, and is thus prohibited to him. Rav Hai Gaon (cited in the Mordechai, Berachot 80) writes that this restriction applies to a man who is reading Kriat Shema, because a woman’s singing will distract him. The Rosh (Berachot 3:37) disagrees and writes that the Gemara refers to all situations and is not limited to Kriat Shema. The Shulchan Aruch rules that the Kol Isha restriction applies to both Kriat Shema (Orach Chaim 75:3) and other contexts (Even Haezer 21:2). The Rama (O.C. 75:3) and Bait Shmuel (21:4) clarify that this prohibition applies only to a woman’s singing voice and not to her speaking voice.

The Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 20:1) rules in accordance with the view of the Rambam (Hilchot Issurei Biah 21:1) that a couple is biblically forbidden to have physical contact if they are forbidden to live with each other. The Acharonim (summarized in Teshuvot Yabia Omer 1:6) debate whether the Kol Isha prohibition is also a biblical level prohibition. Rav Ovadia Yosef (ibid.) rules in accordance with the opinions that it is only a rabbinical prohibition.

Both Rav Ovadia Yosef (ibid) and Rav Yehuda Henkin (Teshuvot Bnei Banim 3:127) reject the claim that this prohibition does not apply today since men nowadays are accustomed to hear a woman’s voice. These authorities explain that since the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch codify this prohibition, we do not enjoy the right to abolish it. The Gemara and its commentaries do not even hint at a possibility that this prohibition might not apply if men become habituated to hearing a woman’s voice. Thus, all recognized Poskim agree that the prohibition of Kol Isha applies today.

Zemirot

There is, however, considerable disagreement regarding the scope of the Kol Isha prohibition. For example, the question of its applicability to Zemirot has been discussed at some length in the twentieth century responsa literature. Rav Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg (Teshuvot Seridei Eish 2:8) notes that traditionally women refrained from singing Zemirot when there were males who were not family members sitting at the Shabbat table. However, he records that the practice in Germany was for woman to sing Zemirot in the company of unrelated men. Rav Weinberg records that Rav Azriel Hildesheimer and Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch (two great German Rabbis of the nineteenth century) sanctioned this practice. Rav Weinberg reports that they based their ruling on the Talmudic rule (Megila 21b) that “Trei Kali Lo Mishtamai,” two voices cannot be heard simultaneously.

Rav Weinberg writes that he does not find this explanation satisfying (perhaps because the Gemara (Sotah 48a) writes that men and women singing together is a major impropriety). Rav Weinberg instead defends the German Jewish practice by citing the Sdei Chemed (Klalim, Maarechet Hakuf, 42) who quotes the Divrei Cheifetz who asserts that the Kol Isha prohibition does not apply to women singing Zemirot, singing songs to children, and lamentations for the dead. This authority explains that in these contexts men do not derive pleasure from the woman’s voice. In fact, the Pasuk (Shoftim 5:1) records that Devora the prophetess sang a song of praise to Hashem together with Barak the son of Avinoam. According to the simple reading of the text, Devora was married to Lapidot and not Barak. The Sdei Chemed writes that he believes that it is proper to be strict and not follow the approach of the Divrei Cheifetz, but he regards the lenient opinion as a viable approach.

Rav Weinberg writes that we should not pressure women who wish to follow the traditional practice to join Zemirot in a mixed group. Indeed, many Poskim oppose this practice of German Jewry (see Otzar Haposkim E.H. 21:1:20:3). However, some cite the Gemara (Megila 23a) that states that women are forbidden to receive an Aliyah to the Torah because of Kavod Hatzibbur as proof to the German practice. They argue that the fact that the Gemara does not mention Kol Isha as the reason to forbid women’s Aliyot proves that the Kol Isha restriction does not apply when a woman sings sacred texts. Others reply that the Gemara might be speaking of a woman reading the Torah to her immediate family members or may be speaking of a female child reading the Torah (see comments of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Eliezer Waldenberg, and Rav Yosef Shalom Eliashiv cited in Nishmat Avraham 5:76-77). These suggestions might also explain the Gemara (Berachot 57b and Rashi s.v. Kol) that states that hearing a woman’s voice is a soothing experience.

Accordingly, the question of whether the Kol Isha prohibition applies to Zemirot remains unresolved. Chareidi communities in Israel and North America generally follow the stringent view on this matter and Modern Orthodox communities in Israel and North America generally follow the tradition of German Jewry in this regard. It seems appropriate, though, not to expand this leniency and permit situations beyond that which the German Poskim specifically authorized – a group of men and women singing Zemirot together. Interestingly, I asked Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik in July 1985 whether he agrees with this ruling of Rav Weinberg. The Rav replied, “I agree with everything that he wrote, except for his permission to stun animals before Shechita” (see volume one of Teshuvot Seridei Eish). Rav Soloveitchik related his great appreciation of Rav Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg. Rav Shalom Carmy later told me that Rav Soloveitchik and Rav Weinberg had been close friends during the years that Rav Soloveitchik studied in Berlin.

Recordings and Radio Broadcasts

Twentieth Century Halachic authorities have also debated whether the Kol Isha prohibition applies to recordings and radio broadcasts. Rav Eliezer Waldenberg (Teshuvot Tzitz Eliezer 5:2) rules leniently based on two considerations. The first is that the Gemara (Sanhedrin 45a) states, “The Yetzer Hara is not interested in what the eyes do not see.” The second is that technically he does not hear the woman’s voice because radio broadcasts and recordings are mere electronic reproductions of the woman’s voice. Rav Waldenberg writes that if we cannot fulfill Mitzvot such as Tekiat Shofar and Kriat Megila when hearing them on the radio, then the prohibition of Kol Isha does not apply over the radio. Rav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin (cited by his grandson Rav Yehudah Henkin, Teshuvot Bnei Banim 2:211 and 3:127) agrees with this position. Rav Y.E. Henkin was unsure whether the prohibition applies to hearing a woman’s voice broadcasted on television (ibid.). This might be because only one of the two lenient considerations that apply to the radio question is relevant to the television issue. Rav Waldenberg cautions, though, that listening to a woman’s voice on the radio is prohibited “if his intention is to enjoy her singing.”

Rav Yaakov Breisch (Teshuvot Chelkat Yaakov 1:163), on the other hand, forbids a man to listen to a female voice on the radio. He reasons that the aforementioned Gemara in Sanhedrin 45a does not apply when there is some form of connection with the woman. He argues that a man’s Yetzer Hara is interested even if he only hears a woman’s voice. He rules strictly even in case where the listener is not acquainted with the singer. Rav Shmuel Wosner (Teshuvot Shevet Halevi 3:E.H.181 and Rav Binyamin Silber (Az Nidberu 9:9) also rule strictly on this question.

Rav Ovadia Yosef (Teshuvot Yabia Omer 1:6) and Rav Chaim David Halevi (Teshuvot Aseh Lecha Rav 3:6) adopt a compromise approach to this issue. They permit listening to a female voice on the radio only if the listener is not acquainted with the singer. They both rule strictly, though, even if the listener once glimpsed a picture of the singer. Rav Ovadia rules that the prohibition applies even if the singer is not alive.

Rav Chaim David Halevi asserts that there is absolutely no basis to permit Kol Isha merely because the woman is singing into a microphone. He writes that the prohibition applies even if the man is not, technically speaking, hearing the woman’s voice. Rav Waldenberg’s aforementioned lenient ruling applies only when the man does not see the woman. Rav J. David Bleich (Contemporary Halachic Problems 2:152) notes that no recognized Halachic authority rules that the use of a microphone alone mitigates the prohibition of Kol Isha.

Husband and Wife

The Pitchei Teshuva (Yoreh Deah 195:10) is uncertain whether a husband is forbidden to hear his wife singing during the time when the couple must separate. The Aruch Hashulchan (Y.D. 195:23) and Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe Y.D. 2:75) rule strictly and Rav Ovadia Yosef (Taharat Habayit 2:167-170) rules leniently, but writes that one who is strict on this matter will be blessed. Rav Mordechai Willig (in a Shiur delivered at Yeshiva University) ruled that a couple is permitted to rely on the lenient ruling of Rav Ovadia Yosef.

A Young Girl
Rav Moshe Feinstein (Teshuvot Igrot Moshe O.C.1:26) and Rav Ovadia Yosef (Taharat Habayit 2:270) rule (based on the Mishna Berura 75:17) that in case of need, one may rely on the ruling that the prohibition of Kol Isha does not apply to girls who are not Niddot. Rav Moshe writes (in 1947) that one may assume that there is no question with girls below the age of eleven. Rav Moshe writes that men must be strict regarding girls older than the age of eleven, since there are girls who “nowadays” become Niddot at the age of eleven.

Conclusion
Observance of the Kol Isha prohibition is quite challenging for us as this prohibition runs counter to the prevailing Western culture. In today’s promiscuous society where outrageous behavior is deemed acceptable, a woman’s singing voice appears innocuous. Moreover, the general culture views this prohibition offensive and demeaning to women. We are challenged to hold firm to our beliefs against the flow of the general cultural tide. This is one of the issues that we must part company with the rest of society, just as Avraham Avinu and Yitzchak Avinu parted with their two servants on the road to Akeidat Yitzchak. Rav Yehuda Amital told me that we should strictly observe the Kol Isha prohibition today precisely because of the deterioration of the moral standards of western society.



Is it a coincidence that yesterday we were discussing Talmud Brachot 24?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Chaim Ben Pesach

  • Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5782
בס''ד

If there is one thing that I despise, it is a hypocritical liar. You are not interested in kol isha. You signed on to this forum with evil intentions from the start. You want to sabotage our holy work on behalf of Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael. You do nothing constructive on behalf of klall Yisrael, which is in itself an avon. But even worse, you attempt to sabotage the work of those who are trying to save our people from catastrophe. Your actions are a true chillul Hashem. The fact that you use Torah as your excuse for trying to prevent us from helping Israel and the Jewish people is רשעות לשמה.


Offline TruthSpreader

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8755
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/WeThePeopleZeb
בס''ד

If there is one thing that I despise, it is a hypocritical liar. You are not interested in kol isha. You signed on to this forum with evil intentions from the start. You want to sabotage our holy work on behalf of Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael. You do nothing constructive on behalf of klall Yisrael, which is in itself an avon. But even worse, you attempt to sabotage the work of those who are trying to save our people from catastrophe. Your actions are a true chillul Hashem. The fact that you use Torah as your excuse for trying to prevent us from helping Israel and the Jewish people is רשעות לשמה.

Exactly. I think he just signed up just to cause trouble on the forums.
Dan - Stay calm and be brave in order to judge correctly and make the right decision

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Chaim is right, euclaire is anti-Zionist heretic "jewishwarrior".
Exactly what I was thinking.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • proud christian & kahanist
    • the urban grind
Haha, obvious apikores...

Offline AsheDina

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5665
  • PSALMS 129:5 "ZION" THE Cornerstone.
בס''ד

If there is one thing that I despise, it is a hypocritical liar. You are not interested in kol isha. You signed on to this forum with evil intentions from the start. You want to sabotage our holy work on behalf of Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael. You do nothing constructive on behalf of klall Yisrael, which is in itself an avon. But even worse, you attempt to sabotage the work of those who are trying to save our people from catastrophe. Your actions are a true chillul Hashem. The fact that you use Torah as your excuse for trying to prevent us from helping Israel and the Jewish people is רשעות לשמה.

Thank you, Chaim.
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל
I endorse NO Presidential Candidates

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
lol at 1:16

Who is the court jester over his shoulder?

I think it's Joe Biden

Offline euclaire57thstate

  • New JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Haha, obvious apikores...

i'm an apikores because i believe in obedience to G-d's Torah, which Mr. Ben Pesach has no interest in.  Interesting. 

Offline AsheDina

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5665
  • PSALMS 129:5 "ZION" THE Cornerstone.
i'm an apikores because i believe in obedience to G-d's Torah, which Mr. Ben Pesach has no interest in.  Interesting.

Garbage.

You are just that 'frum yid' who lies and says he lives in Israel when he really lives in Saratoga.
You troll me around on the net, are socialist and worship Obama.

Why not just get lost.

Chaim is an extremely observant Jew and you are just UNDERMINING him.

YOU support Obama and his evil wife. Making your observance a LIE.

At least I say WHO I am.

You probably HATE Israel and its people, support the NAZI anti Israel movement, too.
Slob.

YOU need to show just WHO YOU are.
Instead of coming here as a nobody and making demands like the little fascist jerk you are.
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל
I endorse NO Presidential Candidates

Offline AsheDina

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5665
  • PSALMS 129:5 "ZION" THE Cornerstone.
i'm an apikores because i believe in obedience to G-d's Torah, which Mr. Ben Pesach has no interest in.  Interesting.

BTW Crazy man...
I found you on the net:
You are a Lesbian that pretends to be a Rabbi.

http://www.aol.com/video/youve-got-rabbi-sharon-kleinbaum/517441229/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chp-laptop%7Cvideo-module%7Csec1_lnk1%7C193702
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל
I endorse NO Presidential Candidates

Offline Chaim Ben Pesach

  • Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5782
i'm an apikores because i believe in obedience to G-d's Torah, which Mr. Ben Pesach has no interest in.  Interesting.

בס''ד

Everything you represent is the antithesis of Torah.

You deny the ניסים ונפלאות (miracles and wonders) that הקב''ה (the Holy One Blessed Be He) has performed in returning His people to ארץ הקודש (the Holy Land) after nearly 2000 years just as His prophets ע''ה זי''ע promised He would do. Your evil denial of G-d's great miracles is most certainly apikorsut.

You are also a מלשין (informer) because you publicly side with Israel's enemies in seeking to destroy our sacred Jewish homeland. We are required to curse Jewish informers in our prayers three times a day.

You are guilty of שנאת חינם (needless hatred) toward your fellow Jews who do not share your treasonous views. חורבן בית המקדש (the destruction of the Holy Temple) and our nearly 2000 year exile was caused by needless hatred from self-hating Jews like you.

If you do not want to receive a very severe punishment on יום הדין (the Day of Judgement), you had better do תשובה (repentence) with complete sincerity.

Offline JTFenthusiast2

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2828
It's interesting how some people are able to discern the true identity of the trolls right away.   How are you able to do this?  IPs?

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
It's interesting how some people are able to discern the true identity of the trolls right away.   How are you able to do this?  IPs?
I think that's how they do it, but I'm not sure!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline euclaire57thstate

  • New JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
בס''ד

Everything you represent is the antithesis of Torah.

You deny the ניסים ונפלאות (miracles and wonders) that הקב''ה (the Holy One Blessed Be He) has performed in returning His people to ארץ הקודש (the Holy Land) after nearly 2000 years just as His prophets ע''ה זי''ע promised He would do. Your evil denial of G-d's great miracles is most certainly apikorsut.

You are also a מלשין (informer) because you publicly side with Israel's enemies in seeking to destroy our sacred Jewish homeland. We are required to curse Jewish informers in our prayers three times a day.

You are guilty of שנאת חינם (needless hatred) toward your fellow Jews who do not share your treasonous views. חורבן בית המקדש (the destruction of the Holy Temple) and our nearly 2000 year exile was caused by needless hatred from self-hating Jews like you.

If you do not want to receive a very severe punishment on יום הדין (the Day of Judgement), you had better do תשובה (repentence) with complete sincerity.

You cause other Jews to be nichshal by posting a clip of a woman singing, which is asur min ha Torah.  By posting this, you are guilty of causing other Jews to sin, a very grave aveirah for which one cannot do teshuva.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
You cause other Jews to be nichshal by posting a clip of a woman singing, which is asur min ha Torah.  By posting this, you are guilty of causing other Jews to sin, a very grave aveirah for which one cannot do teshuva.
Go to Hell troll! I just sent you a message with a Kabbalah curse! Enjoy my friend!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Chaim Ben Pesach

  • Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5782
You cause other Jews to be nichshal by posting a clip of a woman singing, which is asur min ha Torah.  By posting this, you are guilty of causing other Jews to sin, a very grave aveirah for which one cannot do teshuva.

בס''ד

1. The following was your very first post which you made using your current phony user name:

Quote
the word is spelled "separate"

You corrected my spelling of the word "separate".

Since you want to make corrections of my English, I am going to correct your Hebrew, which for a Jew is much more important.

Jews (plural) cannot be נכשל nichshal (singular). The proper verb and/or adjective is נכשלים nichshalim (plural).

2. Many leading rabbis have ruled that kol isha does not apply to television or radio or recordings. This is especially true when we do not see the woman who is singing and do not know her personally.

When you claim that this is an indisputable isur min haTorah, you are lying. You know very well that there has always been a machloket (disagreement) among both Chazal and current talmidei chachamim over this subject. For you to knowingly lie about a Torah issue instead of honestly presenting the differing views is a grave sin.

3. You state that I have caused Jews to sin חס וחלילה and that there is no tshuva for this. You are the one who is trying to convince Jews to commit the most atrocious sin - to become traitors like you who work to destroy Israel חס ושלום. The standard you have set against me will be the standard that you are judged by. You will now be judged as you have judged your fellow Jews מידה כנגד מידה (measure for measure). You not only condemned your fellow Jews, you also closed the door to tshuva. How we judge our fellow Jews is how we are judged on יום הדין. When I rebuked your evil behavior (as I am obligated to do), I still urged you to do tshuva. In other words, I still demonstrated ahavat Yisrael (love of my fellow Jews). But you are so filled with ugly needless hatred שנאת חינם that you not only unjustly condemned, you also stated that there is no tshuva.

4. The rabbis who agree with your interpretation of kol isha would also forbid you from using the internet. There is far more temptation and danger of ערבה from the internet than from listening to a recorded satirical song about Barack and Michelle Obama. What are you doing on the internet?


Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
If this is the guy that corrected Chaim on his spelling, than this troll is Joshua Rosenberg.

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
I just sent you a message with a Kabbalah curse! Enjoy my friend!

Lol :D

Offline AsheDina

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5665
  • PSALMS 129:5 "ZION" THE Cornerstone.
You cause other Jews to be nichshal by posting a clip of a woman singing, which is asur min ha Torah.  By posting this, you are guilty of causing other Jews to sin, a very grave aveirah for which one cannot do teshuva.

Shut up, moron.

You are 'frum yid', stalker and liar extraordinaire. 
Obama-worshipper who loves socialism.

Remember you were going to phone the attny general on me? 
That was 2 years ago... I'm waiting....

At least everyone knows I am a half breed.
But:
You are not a Jew, you are nothing but an Erav Rav skunk.
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל
I endorse NO Presidential Candidates