What Etrog should one use?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-ask-the-rav/57-shophar-lulav-sukka/80-etrog-type

  What type of ethrog should I buy?
      Answer
One should buy a Yemenite etrog.


 Also Q and A from this Rav (Rav Elbaz)

 Do you know if a number (2 or 3 for example) of people are able to all use 1 set (although not better still is it acceptable).
 Or put another way- is it better to own less quality or questionable Etrog (and whole set obviously) individually or share a higher quality set with someone else? 
  Do you consider for example a Moroccan Etrog set or another variety using it as making a Beracha Levatalah, or just better to have Yeminite species only as hiddur Misswah?
 
  Also let's say in a situation where their would not be any Teimani Etrogim available should people use other set's and with a Beracha?
__________________________________________________________________
Although Yemenite Etrogim are most certainly the most halachically preferred species of etrog, many Poskim consider moroccan Etrogim Meyuchas as well and kosher for the blessing. I would not go so far to say that making a Beracha on any other kind of etrog is a Beracha levatala, however, like the poskim say, it is preferable to take an etrog which is CERTAINLY not grafted.

Although it is preferable for each individual to have his own set of lulav and etrog, there are definitely halachic ways to permit several persons to share one set. First of all, from the third day of Sukkot on (in israel from the second day on) a borrowed lulav and  are perfectly kosher to make a blessing on. Even on the first two days (first day in israel), the owner may give his lulav and etrog to another (or several others) as a gift and tell the recipient "this is a gift to you on the condition that you return it to me." in this way, the recipient may recite a blessing on it with no problem. (for a synopsis of these laws, see Sukkah 41 and Shulchan Aruch chapter 658). This can surely be taken into consideration if one has money for only one etrog Meyuchas or several not such meyuchasim.

  Shabbat shalom and Gmar hatima Tova,

         Meir Gavriel Elbaz   


 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

www( DOT)
 torahanytime.com/scripts/media.php?file=media/Rabbi/Meir_Gavriel_Elbaz/2012-09-06/Sukkot:_Some_Laws_Regarding_the_Four_Species/Rabbi__Meir_Gavriel_Elbaz__Sukkot:_Some_Laws_Regarding_the_Four_Species__2012-09-06.wmv

[muman613]

I never heard of this....It would help if he would provide a reason for saying that it is only kosher to use a 'yemenite' etrog... where does he get this stuff?

PS: I have found some information about this decision..

http://www.chayas.com/ethrogpage.htm

[muman613]

1-   Talmud Bavli lists signs (simonim) for an Ethrog as follows: The ethrog is described as the only tree in which the fruit and the tree have the same taste. In addition, the ethrog is considered unique in that the fruit will stay on the tree past its "season" and continues to grow and thrive year-round.

2- RaMb"M: "If even the slightest amount of an Ethrog is missing, as a result of a hole, it is posul." (Hilchoth Shofar/Sukkah/Lulav 8)


There are other examples - like the chimaera - that should certainly warrant closer study,

Throughout the ages, our wise men were already aware of the alterations caused by grafting. In Yemen & certain places in Europe, they actually warned about it in Jewish (legal) codes/writings.

Some modern rabbis believe that grafting effects seed position (inside the fruit). Others believe that grafting creates spots and/or changes the indentation of the stem on the fruit. Many have suggested that an authentic ethrog should have ridges on it's exterior - and not be totally smooth. I am not sure if there is a basis to that or not. However, I know this. The citrus INDUSTRIES are most certainly monetarily motivated. To date, they have provided no evidence that grafting has no effect on the content of an ethrog. I believe the "onis probandi" rests on them to prove their case. Until they can 100% guarantee that their grafts have/had no effect on the ethrog, we will continue to avoid them (at all costs). Instead, we opt for Ethrogim (ie: seeds) that have a tradition of being "non-grafted". We also avoid using Ethrogim that exhibit features of being cross-hybrid-bread with lemons.

A full discussion of this topic appears here: http://www.chayas.com/sheela.htm#ethrog

[muman613]

The Etrog we use is from Israel, and my Rabbi just told me that it has the Hecsher Eida Hachareidis which ensures that our Etrogim are not grafted... Thus our Etrogs are Kosher according to Halacha...

[muman613]

The issue the rav from Machonshilo seems concerned with is 'grafting' which makes an Etrog impermissible for use in the mitzvah of waving the four species...


http://www.oztorah.com/2007/06/arbaah-minim-the-four-species/

THE ETROG - The Torah does not call the etrog by that name. It says, “Take for yourselves… the fruit of a hadar tree” (Lev. 23:40). Many translations render hadar as goodly, since hadar in other contexts means splendour. By tradition, the fruit the Torah is speaking of is the citron or etrog. It is not valid if the button-like tip (pitom) is missing, though some valid types of etrog grow without a pitom. Etrogim must be pure, not grafted (mur’kav).

Historically, etrogim tended to come from Corfu, but by the latter part of the 19th century there were fears that grafting was practised in Corfu and in 1876 Rabbi Yitzchak Elchanan Spektor of Kovno, joined by Rabbi Yisrael Salanter and other rabbis, insisted that etrogim be obtained from other sources. Thenceforth Corsican etrogim were used. A problem arose when, because they had a captive market, some suppliers inflated their prices; in addition, the early Zionist colonists in Israel urged that their etrogim should be used. Rav Kook authorised Israeli etrogim provided the growers guaranteed that there was no grafting and that supervisors oversaw the production.

Grafted etrogim tend to have a smooth skin as opposed to the bumpy skin of non-grafted etrogim and have a thin skin and a juicy interior whereas the non-grafted fruit is thick on the outside with a rather dry inside. An etrog should not be smaller than an egg, though some scholars believe eggs are now smaller than in the time of the Talmud and they make the minimum size the equivalent of two eggs. After the festival, etrogim go back to being merely citrons, hence the saying Esrogim nach Sukkos (something that has come too late).

[muman613]

I just got my Etrog yesterday... It is obviously not a grafted because of the bumpiness of the skin...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman- listen to the (very short)  shiur by Rav Elbaz. I posted it as well. Just follow the link and listen to what he said. I spoke to him and he and his whole Yeshiva (and I personally know some people there and learned/learn with someone there, use only a Teimani Etrog, because their is more certainty that the species is not grafted. With the rest their is some doubt. He also brings down R' Ovadia, the Chazon Eish and others.
 
 I personally got a Teimani etrog yesturday.

 By the way I'm not putting down your decision or anything, just making discussion and bringing down opinions and thoughts. Its not a "Daat Yachid" (one opinion) as you just claimed/ implied.

[muman613]

Teimanim are the most authentic with pretty much everything.

The issue with Etrogim have nothing to do with 'authentic'. It has to do with whether the fruit was grafted with other species...

And concerning whether there is doubt... There is supervision over the Israeli Etrogim, as I stated the Hecsher is Eida Hachareidis.

[muman613]

Obviously if it has to do with grafting, it has to do with being authentic.  Teimanim have the most authentic version of Torah observance and Hebrew, so it's no surprise to me that they are most trusted when it comes to etrogim.  By the way, Eda haCharedit (which simply means "the Haredi community") is apparently a group of raving Israel-hating heretics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaEdah_HaCharedis

Eda Hacharedie is a supervisor of Kashrut and according to that wiki page is one of the most stringent kashrut organizations.

The Edah HaChareidis is known for its high standards in rabbinical supervision of kosher food, and is considered to be one of the strictest hechsheirim in Israel. It is often simply known as the hechsher of the "Badatz", which stands for Beis Din Tzedek (literally "Court [of] Righteous Law"), the standard term for a rabbinical court. Products certified by the Edah are marked with the well-known logo of the Edah.

And indeed this issue of Etrogim is exclusively a matter of whether the Etrog has been grafted. Look at the Halacha...

As long as the Etrog is not from a grafted species it is 100% kosher no matter where it was grown.. The Hecsher on these Etrogim is proof that they have been supervised and the Rabbis ensured that the species is not grafted.


And you are incorrect in labeling them as Heretics... They are indeed against the current secular state of Israel as many Orthodox are. They are not related to the Nuta Karta and they also currently work with the Israeli government concerning Marriages and conversion.

You are very wrong, Dan, to call these Jews heretics. If you were a Jew you would be guilty of Lashon Hara, but we all know that you are not Jewish... So go on slandering Jews all you like... You 'apparently' know nothing about being Jewish, and I severely doubt you will ever be a yid.

[muman613]

Regularly posters here at JTF curse the leaders of Israel. Are they any less heretical than those Orthodox Jews who refuse to recognize the leaders of the criminal state? Is the 'State' of Israel acting in the best interests of the Jewish people when they 'disengage' Jewish towns and evict their Jewish citizens? Is it a Jewish state where Homo parades occur on Shabbat? I am conflicted with the entire state of Israel business, and my JTF experience makes me so sick of Bibi and the political system that sometimes I think it is wrong to keep this state going.

All Orthodox Jews want to establish a religious Jewish state. But the state which exists now does not deserve the support of truly religious Jews. It is better for Jews to sin in Chutz LaAretz than in the holy land. The punishment for Jews who violate Torah is worse if they live in the land.

Just being opposed to the current secular state DOES NOT make one a heretic... Sorry dan.. Go convert to Islam where your slander would be appreciated.

[muman613]

The Eidah HaCharedis settled the land LONG LONG before the establishment of the state.

The Edah is mainly formed by people whose ancestors arrived in Jerusalem and the Land of Israel long before the founding of the State of Israel. Many of them maintain the classical customs of Jerusalem — the Yerushalmi minhagim — such as the gold kaftan worn on Shabbos. Nowadays, the groups include: Satmar, Dushinsky, Toldos Aharon, Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok, Spinka, Brisk, Sanz-Tshokave, Perushim, a faction of Breslover hasidim led by Rabbi Yaakov Meir Shechter and Mishkenos HoRoim.

[muman613]

It says their conversions are not recognized by the State of Israel, and one of their head rabbis was Joel Teitelbaum, the Satmar Rebbe, who is a heretic.  And once again, the definition of lashon hara is not "that which is unacceptable to muman613".  Perhaps there is no major issue with their hechsher, but that doesn't negate the statements I made.

Lashon Hara is stating anything which denigrates a fellow Jew. You are incapable of Lashon Hara, which is my point, so you are free to slander righteous Jews all you want.

And who is it who labeled Teitelbaum a heretic? Can you find such a statement? I have searched several Jewish sources and your statement doesn't appear correct.

Again, a heretic is not someone 'who holds an opinion which is against the opinion of Dan Ben Noach'... It has a specific definition, if you want I will bring it...

[muman613]

Dan Ben Noach, according to your Rebbe Rambam the definition of a Heretic is below:

http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/LORch3-6.html

Regarding the World to Come:

"The following are the ones who do not have a portion in the World to Come, but rather are cut off, perish, and are judged for their great wickedness and sinfulness eternally. (1) Agnostics; (2) Heretics; (3) Those who deny the Torah; (4) Those who deny the Resurrection; (5) Those who deny the arrival of the Redeemer (i.e. the Messiah) (6) Apostates; (7) Those who cause the many to sin; (8) Those who separate from the ways of the community; (9) One who sins unashamedly (lit. 'with a high hand') and publicly such as Yehoyakim (Jehoiakim); (10) Those who give over [Jews to Gentile authorities]; (11) Those who place fear on the community not for the sake of heaven; (11) Murderers; (12) Those who regularly engage in evil speech (lit., 'masters of evil speech'); (13) One who stretches out his circumcision (making him appear uncircumcised)."

http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/LORch3-8a.html

"There are three types of heretics ('apikorsim').

(1) One who says there is no prophecy at all and there is no knowledge which comes from the Creator to the hearts of man.

(2) One who denies the prophecy of our teacher Moses.

(3) One who says that the Creator does not know the deeds of man.

Each of these three is considered a heretic."

[muman613]

Dan,

I apologize for getting upset at you about this. But basically it seemed to me you were insulting my Etrog which was certified Kosher by this organization. I spoke with Chaim about this and he assured me that no matter what concerning the organization, their hecsher is valid and my Etrog is indeed Kosher and my mitzvah is valid.

You are entitled to think what you want. While the organization may not be ideal it's Hescher is still considered valid by all Jews around the world.

I should not let anyone upset me like this, and I apologize but it is important to me to do the mitzvah correctly. I felt you were attempting to invalid my mitzvah and the mitzvah of my entire community.

[muman613]

I didn't mean to insult your etrog, or say it was invalid, I was just expressing support for the Teimanim and their tendency to be on target all the time.  It is possible for groups like Eda haCharedit to be right on some things and wrong on others.

Thank you very much Dan for understanding. I really apologize for my harsh reply. I really have a temper when it comes to some things. I hope you can forgive me. I really believe that on most things, you and I, we agree. We have various things which we disagree but it should not be allowed to get in the way of what I believe is our greater goal.

I appreciate all you do for JTF and as I said to Chaim I have no desire to allow these kinds of things to fester and become a wedge which breaks down our community. I really am sorry about some of the things I wrote, but I can only ask for your understanding and your forgiveness. I don't believe you intentionally attempted to insult my Etrog... But it appeared to me to be the case. Let us let this pass.

Thank you,
muman613

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

My Teimani Etrog