Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea

Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)

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Tag-MehirTzedek:

 
 My reply
 
 1)Writing to a dead Rebbe does not sound Jewish to me
 2) Got banned for 1
 3) he replied (In link)
 
 4) What my reply would be (and did send him email with this reply as well)

No as well. But with a person it is different and borderline Avoda Zara. The best way is to address G-D directly and not even write a note into the wall. Secondly even the people who do that write the note to G-D and not to a person. In this case you are saying to write a note to a dead person (any person Rabbi, or Rebbe including) is wrong because we are supposed to pray to and worship only the 1 and only G-D and no intermediaries.

muman613:
You are correct. I have never heard of anyone claiming that we are supposed to pray through intermediaries. I do not know the rabbi you posted here so I cannot comment on his response or his outlook. But I find it hard to believe that anyone who claims to be a Jewish Rabbi would suggest that we pray to a man.

The concept of the Tzadik is a complex one and often many people misunderstand what it going on. The Torah does express the concept that some of our fore-bearers were righteous and if we prayed at their kever we would benefit in the merit of the tzadik, and our prayers would be received with the tzadiks merits. I can understand this, and I can understand how an observer who was not fully aware of this could misunderstand the practice.

Here is an explanation from Torah.org @ http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5760/shlach.html


VISITING GRAVES of TZADDIKIM: HOW and WHY?

The ancient minhag yisrael of visiting and davening at graves of tzaddikim during times of tribulation has many sources in Talmudic literature(1). Indeed, Shulchan Aruch records in several places that it is appropriate to do so on certain public fast days in general(2) and on Tishah B'av after midday in particular(3). Erev Rosh ha-Shanah, too, is a day when it has become customary to visit graves(4). But what is the reason for this? How does it help us(5)?

The Talmud(6) cites two explanations: 1) To serve as a reminder of man's immortality so that one repent while he still can; 2) To ask the dead to pray for mercy on our behalf. [A practical difference between these two reasons, says the Talmud, is whether or not it is appropriate to visit graves of non-Jews [when there are no Jewish graves near by] since even a non-Jew's grave reminds man of his immortality. Nowadays, however, when non-Jews mark their graves with religious symbols, it is no longer appropriate to visit non-Jewish graves even if there are no Jewish graves in the area(7).]

The second reason quoted in the Talmud - to ask the dead to pray for mercy on our behalf - demands clarification. Many people assume that this means that we are allowed to pray to the dead to ask them to help us. This is a serious mistake and strictly forbidden. One who prays with this intent transgresses the Biblical(8) command of "You shall not recognize the gods of others in my presence"(9). It may also be a violation of the Biblical(10) command against "one who consults the dead"(11).

If so, what does the Talmud mean when it says that we "ask the dead to beg for mercy on our behalf"? We find two schools of thought concerning this matter:

Some(12) hold that it means that it is permitted to speak directly to the dead to ask them to daven to Hashem on our behalf. This is similar to the prayers that we find throughout Selichos which are addressed to the malachim. Although the malachim - who are merely G-d's messengers - do not posses the ability to do anything of their own accord, still we may ask them to "deliver" our prayers to Hashem. So, too, it is permitted to address the dead directly and ask them to intercede on our behalf at the heavenly throne.

Others(13) strongly disagree and maintain that this, too, is strictly forbidden. In their opinion, addressing a dead person is a violation of "consulting the dead". What the Talmud means by "asking the dead to pray for mercy on our behalf" is that we daven directly to Hashem that in the merit of the dead He should have mercy on us. We visit the graves only to remind Hashem of the merits of the holy tazddikim who are interred there.

The practical halachah is as follows. Most of the classical poskim(14) rule in accordance with the second view. Mishnah Berurah(15) also clearly writes: We visit graves because a cemetery where tzaddikim are interred is a place where prayers are more readily answered. But one should not place his trust in the dead. He should just ask Hashem to have mercy on him in the merit of the tzaddikim who are interred here.

But other poskim rule that it is permitted to talk to the dead [or to angels] to intercede on our behalf. In a lengthy responsum, Minchas Elazar(16) proves from a host of sources throughout the Talmud and Zohar that not only is this permitted but it is a mitzvah to do so.

But as we said before, all opinions - without exception - agree that it is strictly forbidden to daven directly to a dead person [or to angel] so that they should help us. The most that is permitted [according to the lenient views] is to ask them to act as our emissaries to Hashem, so that Hashem will look favorably and mercifully upon us.

THE VISIT: PROPER CONDUCT

Upon entering a cemetery, the blessing of Asher yatzar eschem badin is recited(17). The full text is found in many siddurim. This blessing is recited only once within any thirty day period(18).

Before visiting at a grave, one should wash his hands(19).

Upon reaching the grave, one should place his left hand on the marker(20).

It is forbidden, though, to lean on it(21).

Within four amos [7-8 feet] of a grave(22):

The tzitzis strings should be concealed(23).

Levity, eating, drinking, greeting a friend or engaging in business is prohibited(24).

Learning, davening or reciting a blessing is prohibited(25). Many poskim, however, hold that it is permitted to recite Tehillim(26) or the burial Kaddish(27).

One should be careful not to step on any grave(28).

Before taking leave of a grave it is customary to put a stone or some grass on the marker(29).

The same grave should not be visited twice in one day(30).

Upon leaving the cemetery, it is customary to take some soil and grass from the ground and throw it over one's shoulder(31). There are many different reasons for this custom. On Shabbos, Yom Tov and Chol ha-Moed this may not be done(32).

After leaving a cemetery and before entering one's home(33) or another person's home(34), one should wash his hands three times from a vessel, alternating between the right and left hands(35). There are different customs concerning the method of washing(36): The water should drain into the ground and not collect in a puddle. After washing, any water that remains in the vessel is poured out. The vessel is turned upside down and placed on the ground, not handed to the next person(37). Some let their hands air dry and do not use a towel(38). Some wash their face as well(39).


FOOTNOTES

1 Yosef cried at his mother's grave before going to Egypt (Sefer ha-Yashar); Before being exiled, the Jewish people wept at Kever Rochel (Rashi, Vayechi 48:7); Kalev prayed at Meoras ha-Machpeilah before confronting the meraglim (Sotah 34b). See also Ta'anis 23b.

2 O.C. 579:3.

3 Rama O.C. 559:10.

4 Rama O.C. 581:4. Some go on Erev Yom Kippur as well (Rama O.C. 605:1) while others oppose going on that day; Elef ha-Magen 605:39 quoting Ya'avetz; Divrei Yoel 99:4.

5 Our discussion focuses on visiting graves on fast days and at other times of strife. Do not confuse this with the custom of visiting graves of parents and other relatives (on their yahrzeits and other occasions) whose primary purpose is to elevate the soul of the deceased and to give it "pleasure".

6 Ta'anis 16a.

7 Mishnah Berurah 579:14. See also Kaf ha-Chayim 559:81.

8 Shemos 20:3.

9 Sefer ha-Ikarim, mamar 2, quoted in Gesher ha-Chayim 2:26.

10 Shoftim 18:11.

11 Eliyohu Rabbah 581:4.

12 See Shalah (quoted by Elef ha-Magen 581:113), Pri Megadim O.C. 581:16 and M'haram Shick O.C. 293.

13 The source for this view among the Rishonim is Teshuvos R' Chaim Paltiel (quoted by the Bach and Shach Y.D. 179:15) and Maharil, Hilchos Ta'anis, (quoted by Be'er Heitev O.C. 581:17).

14 Including the Be'er Heitev, Chayei Adam, Mateh Efrayim and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch.

15 581:27.

16 1:68. See also Gesher ha-Chayim 2:26 and Minchas Yitzchak 8:53.

17 O.C. 224:12. This blessing is recited only at a burial plot that contains at least two graves.

18 Mishnah Berurah 224:17.

19 Mishnah Berurah 4:42.

20 Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 128:13. See there also for the text that should be recited at that time.

21 Shach Y.D. 363:3.

22 Note that according to the Arizal (quoted by Mishnah Berurah 559:41) one should never go within four amos of a grave [except at interment]. In Igeres ha-Gra he writes that one should never enter a cemetery at all, and especially not women. [It is commonly accepted that a woman who is a niddah does not go to a cemetery at all (Mishnah Berurah 88:7). Under extenuating circumstances a rav should be consulted; see Beis Baruch on Chayei Adam 3:38.]

23 Mishnah Berurah 23:3. Tefillin, too, must be concealed.

24 Y.D. 368:1; Rama Y.D. 343:2.

25 Y.D. 367:3; 368:1.

26 Birkei Yosef Y.D. 344:17.

27 Gesher ha-Chayim 1:16-4.

28 Taz Y.D. 363:1.

29 Be'er Heitev O.C. 224:8.

30 Mishnah Berurah 581:27.

31 Y.D. 376:4. Some do this only after an interment.

32 O.C. 547:12.

33 Kaf ha-Chayim 4:80.

34 Mishnah Berurah 4:43. It is permitted, however, to enter a shul or another public place before washing; Harav M. Feinstein (Moadei Yeshurun, pg. 58).

35 Mishnah Berurah 4:39.

36 Some of these customs do not have an halachic source; they are based on Cabalistic writings and customs.

37 R' Akiva Eiger (Y.D. 376:4). See Zichron Meir, pg. 450.

38 Several poskim write that this does not apply during the cold winter month when the hands will become chapped; see Kaf ha-Chayim 4:78.

39 Mishnah Berurah 4:42.

Tag-MehirTzedek:
Deviant Jews – Praying to the Dead
 
Moshe Ben-Chaim
 
Reader: By the grace of G-d. Shalom u’Brocha! Perhaps you have no obligation to believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe or the Besht were prophets, but those who witnessed their prophecies and miracles have such an obligation. Brocha ve’hatzlocha!  Ariel
 
Mesora: First off, let me offer you a sampling of reality regarding the Rebbe: a close friend went to the Rebbe and asked him a question about the condition of her sick relative. The Rebbe told her that her relative would live, but she died. The Rebbe was wrong. All humans are bereft of absolute knowledge, and of future events.
 
Furthermore, to suggest the Rebbe, the Besht or anyone is a prophet, never having produced the Torah’s required proofs of prophecy; you display a severe lack of adherence to the Torah, which destroys Torah. For you will most certainly follow your self-proclamation of their prophecy with the view that “all they said is Torah.”  Suggesting man is infallible and is always speaking “prophetic truths” leads many astray. These men were never proven as prophets, so your claim exposes you as a very poor judge of Torah principles. Based on God’s words, we do not accept what an unproven prophet speaks, lest he mislead Jews from God. So until a man produces the phenomenon required by Torah to be a prophet, he is not considered one. You seem to be living in a fantasy world, simply to maintain your idols as leaders of “holy” status. Be mindful: when Moses died, the Jews accepted his death. They did not say he was returning. So why do you place your Rebbe higher than Moses?
 
I visited your website “www.kingmessiah.com” where under a picture of the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, you write, “The Lubavitcher Rebbe - King Messiah may he live for ever”. You feel the Rebbe is Moshiach, but he never satisfied any requirements that he might be considered the messiah. Your credibility as a voice of Torah is thereby completely stripped from you. But the most disgusting element of your website is where you encourage others to violate a Torah prohibition of consulting the dead, where you write, “Write to the Rebbe and Behold Miracles.” You openly tell Jews they may consult the dead, and that they will receive miracles. You are no different than a devout Christian waiting for Jesus to perform miracles from HIS grave. You do not practice Judaism, but idolatry. We just celebrated our liberation from the idolatrous, Egyptian culture, but you intend to return the Jews to the Egyptians’ primitivism.
 
In contrast, what is accurate Torah? What does God say? God tells us “[do not] inquire of the dead. For it is an abomination to God, all who do such things, and on account of these abominations, Hashem your God wiped them out from before you.” (Deut. 18:11,12) God also says, “do not lie” (Lev. 19:11) but you violate this too, and lie by telling others they may talk to the dead. Not only can the dead not hear our words, they cannot do anything. They know nothing, as King Solomon said, “for the dead know nothing.” (Ecclesiastes, 9:5) This is why God prohibited this action, for it is useless, false, and breeds hope in that which cannot be. Your views cause many to become distressed.
 
You suggest that a minority, which claims to have seen a miracle, may be believed, such as with regards to the Rebbe or the Besht. If so, may I believe anyone today who says he saw someone perform a miracle? Perhaps someone today, I will claim, outperformed the supposed miracles of the Besht and your Rebbe. According to your view, you must allow me to believe this new miracle worker has surpassed the Besht and your Rebbe. Let us say this new miracle worker, I claim, outperformed Moshe Rabbeinu. Again, you must defend your position that I must be right in following this new miracle worker. According to you, I must then be allowed to believe a Christian, who believes he saw Jesus do a miracle, or a Muslim, that Mohammed is a true prophet. You see, your opinion allows anyone to attain a status of a prophet. But this is not Judaism. You are following your devotion to the Besht and the Rebbe and fake stories, and not a devotion to truth and Torah. As a Rabbi once said, you are attached “man”, not God.
 
God created the event of Har Sinai – precisely in the eyes of ALL Jews – that such ‘mass witnesses’ be the singular proof of His will and selection of the Jews, and no others. But your opinion negates the need for this mass event of Sinai, as you suggest, one may believe miracles, even with few “witnesses”.
 
What is the Torah’s position? It is this: we must deny all stories of the Besht’s and the Rebbe’s miracles – of anyone’s miracles – (Jew or gentile) and follow what God intended through His miracles at Sinai: we are to follow only that which is “comprehensively proven in front of masses”. This is the story God wishes all mankind to follow, and to abandon all other impostors. Only such a phenomenon removes all possibility of fabrication and ignorance. And when fabrication and ignorance do not enter a story, the story must be true, as there is no other possibility that a massively attended event, communicated throughout history, can be false. When all possibilities of falsehood have been removed the story must be true. Regarding Sinai, all possibilities have been removed: fabrication is refuted, as masses cannot all share one common motive to lie. Ignorance is refuted, as the event was simple in nature: all know what fire is, and what mountains are. Thus, regarding Mount Sinai’s fiery revelation, there is no possibility that this event was false. It must have occurred. But regarding other stories of reported miracles, if there are no masses, we know that the story may have been fabricated. This applies to your stories of the Rebbe and the Besht performing miracles. God does not demand that we accept any story some religious Jew reports, be he a Rabbi or less. It is precisely because God desires we live based on proof, that He orchestrated Sinai: an event, which cannot be shown to be false.
 
There is no excuse for your blatant Torah violation, as you entice Jews to violate idolatry, the prohibition of “consulting the dead”. It is essential that others condemn the views of such factions who freely malign God’s Torah and cause Jews to violate not merely small sins, but sins that God refers to as “abominations”.

muman613:
Tag,

What you posted is a straw man argument, in my opinion. Who is claiming that the Rebbe was a prophet? Who is claiming he is a miracle worker? Who is claiming that we should pray to him? I have never seen such things, nor do I understand who the writer of the piece you posted is addressing.

As I posted above, there is a Torah precedant which says that one may pray at the grave of a tzadik, in the merit of the Tzadik. That was your original comment. What you just posted has no connection to this question. What this piece you just posted states is the obvious.

But why post it? Who is saying that we are supposed to pray to the dead? Could you please show that these ideas are expressed anywhere?

I also disagree with the idea that a miracle can only happen if it is before all of Israel. We all experience miracles {as I have} which pertain to us personally. Just because a miracle was not seen by all of Israel doesn't mean it did not happen. There are many miracles in the Torah which were not witnessed by many people. For instance it is said that the fact that Sarah had Yitzak was a miracle, because she was barren and did not even have the biological ability to bear children, yet she had Yitzak. The Torah also doesn't mention the event when Abraham was thrown into the fiery furnce, yet the story is related in the midrash and was surely a miracle yet not many people witnessed it.


--- Quote ---http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5768/toldos.html

Avraham Avinu wanted to sanctify the Name of G-d (Kiddush Hashem) and publicize the great miracle that G-d did for him. Avraham made this big celebration for just that purpose, but the cynics were sitting there having a field day. They joked that Yitzchak could not possibly be Avraham's child. Sarah must have become pregnant from Avimelech. We know how it goes: A roll of the eyes, a twist of the n ose, a mocking smile.

In truth, this cynicism was illogical. They were saying that "Sarah was pregnant from Avimelech" because he could not possibly be Avraham's child. The wonder here wasn't that Avraham had fathered a child. Avraham had already fathered a son from Hagar! The wonder was that Sarah, barren all her life, indeed conceived after she reached the age of ninety!

What then was the nature of this cynicism? Why did G-d respond in such a miraculous fashion to counteract this patently false type of mocking?

The point is that cynicism (leitzanus) has exactly this power. Cynicism does not need to be precise or accurate. The effect of a "one-liner" is basically that of a pin that, in a moment, bursts the balloon. The "press" will write it up. The fact that anyone with intelligence who thinks about this for 30 seconds will recognize it as nonsense is irrelevant. The damage has already been done. Such is the power of leitzanus.
--- End quote ---


Could you please show me that there are those who suggest we should pray to the dead? I have never seen these people..

muman613:
Another thing the writer of that piece neglects to account for is that we celebrate another miracle, the miracle of Chanuka... But according to the Talmud there is a question as to what the miracle of Channukah was. Was it the fact that the oil burned eight days, or was it the war? In the case of the Candles , which most conclude was the reason we celebrate Chanukah, was not a miracle that all of Israel witnessed. It is a miracle which we were told about by the sages. Thus the premise of the Moshe Ben-Chaim seems to evaporate. Here a miracle which all of Israel did not witness is celebrated every year. Are we to conclude that the sages of the Talmud too were wicked?

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