Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
Tag-MehirTzedek:
And only in the most obvious cases of heresy or self-hatred, is it permitted to openly speak derogatorily of another Jew.
Muman- I did contact him personally and privately. By the way what I wrote (I believe first response here is exactly word for word that I wrote to him). I also later sent him an email (after being banned). But the banning is not the issue, not at all.
This guy speaks publicly. He gave at least a couple of lectures in public and at least in this video his message is to the public. The public many times includes ignoramuses who withh either accept these things and do them or think that these things are Judaism itself and laugh and ridicule all of Judaism because of what they see being said or done by some in the name of Judaism.
About wanting Moshiah etc. Who does not want that here? Of-course we (me, you, KahaneWasRightBT) and most people want that, but the way to move forward is to discard those things that are actually holding us back. Besides this thing for example being a form of heresy it definitely does not bring us forward to the complete redemption process of having a complete Jewish state, run under Jewish law and with Sanhedrin and national leader directing it appropriately. Sitting and propagating and believing in fairy tales (I'm being blunt) takes us back and not forward.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
Very related from the Rambam. Read it, re-read it again and again. Internalize it and understand.
(Except in today's case, the list would include more things besides astrology, which is also still around today). For astrology you can and should add all "superstitious" beliefs and practices- red strings, "segulot", etc.)
This is what abolished our kingdom, destroyed our Beit HaMikdash, prolonged our exile, and brought us to our present predicament. Our fathers sinned and are no more.
For they found many astrology books, followed them, and went astray. They imagined that these wisdoms were glorious and greatly beneficial, and they did not study warfare and land conquest. Instead, they imagined that these wisdoms would help them. Therefore, the prophets called them fools; and they certainly were fools, for they followed vanities which cannot avail nor rescue, for they are vain. (Iggrot U'Teshuvot LeRambam, Iggrot Shonot, p. 21. 204)
Ephraim Ben Noach:
Serious question... Rambam lived in the 1100's, were there other Torah scholars before him that spoke about the minim? Rambam was a man, so why does his teachings of oral law override the others before him, that's if they do? I hope this doesn't come off rude!
muman613:
--- Quote from: Ephraim on October 23, 2012, 12:58:15 PM ---Serious question... Rambam lived in the 1100's, were there other Torah scholars before him that spoke about the minim? Rambam was a man, so why does his teachings of oral law override the others before him, that's if they do? I hope this doesn't come off rude!
--- End quote ---
I have posted about what the minim were in previous threads. The word 'minim' basically means 'kind' as it is also the word for the species which we shake on Sukkot (The Four Species/Arba Minim).
http://www.akhlah.com/holidays/sukkot/sukkot_arba_minim.php
But in the context of this discussion the word 'minim' refers to the three specific kinds of heretics which are described as having no place in the world to come.
Here is the law according to Rambam, who doesn't exactly provide the sources for his laws... But I believe they come from the Talmud...
--- Quote ---http://www.shemayisrael.com/rabbiforsythe/personalgrowth/tshuva.htm
6. These are those who have no portion in the world to come, who are cut off, eternally lost and judged according to the enormity of their evil and sins, dead forever and for eternity: heretics, those who deny G-d; those who deny prophesy or G-d's omniscience; those who deny or replace Torah; deny resurrection of the dead, coming of the redeemer [Mashiach]; rebellion against or abandoning Torah; those who cause the public to sin; those who separate from the ways of the Torah community; those who sin with a high hand and impudent attitude in front of other people, like Yehoyakim; those who inform or turn a Jew in to non-Jewish authorities without advance Torah-sanctioned permission; those who frighten a community without Torah-sanction and purpose; murderers; speakers of loshon hora (slander, gossip, defamation - even if the harmful speech was true); and one who undoes his circumcision.
7. There are five who are called minim (heretics, those who deny G-d). The one who says that there is no G-d or that the world has no Leader. The one who says that the world has a leader but there are two or more [i.e. not one]. The one who says that there is One Ruler but that He has a body or a form. The one who says that He is not the First Cause and the Rock Of The Universe alone. The one who worships any idol, star, constellation, ideology or anything besides G-d, or to be any intermediary between any human being and the Master of the universe. All of these five are guilty of being a heretic.
8. There are three who are called apikorsus (those who deny prophesy or G-d's omniscience). Those who say that there is no prophesy at all and that there is no knowledge that reached from the Creator to the heart of man. Anyone who contradicts the prophesy of Moshe our Rabbi. The one who says that the creator does not know the deeds of human beings. All three of these are guilty of being an apikorus. There are three kinds of people who are deniers or replacers of Torah. The one who says that the Torah is not from Hashem, even one verse, even one word. Or if he said that Moshe said on his own [and not from prophesy from G-d], this is one who denies Torah. Likewise, anyone who denies [the Torah's] explanation, being the Oral Torah; anyone who contradicts its instructors; as, for example, Tzadok and Baitus did. The one who says that the Creator exchanged one commandment for a second commandment and this nullified or replaced the first unit of Torah, even though the "first Torah" was from Hashem, for example Christians or Moslems, all of these are deniers of Torah.
9. There are two categories of Jew who are called those who rebel against or abandon Torah [moraid, mumar, meshumad - different terms in different manuscripts; in any event, Rambam is about to clearly define exactly what he means]. The mumar le'avaira achas [one who removes one commandment to "legitimize," in his mind, violation of the one commandment to permit one sin] and mumar lekol haTorah kula [one who removes the entire Torah to "legitimize," in his mind, violation of all of the commandments, to permit any and all sins]. One who abandons one commandment to permit one specific sin to himself is one who determines in his mind to do a given sin intentionally and to be habituated in it and has become well known for it. This even includes relatively light transgressions, such as being characterized as continually wearing shatnez [a garment containing wool and linen, Deuteronomy 22:11] or lihakif pe'ah [he cuts the hair at the corner of his head, Leviticus 19:27]; so that it is as if he nullified the particular commandment out of the world, as far as he is concerned. He is a "mumar" with respect to that thing, if he did it with intent to spite the Torah. A mumar lekol haTorah kula [is one who abandons the entire Torah]. For example, those who pursue idolatry or who convert to another religion. This might happen at a time that there is decree of legislation [demanding abandonment of Judaism for another religion] and then the Jew joins them [if there is no decree, moving to another religion is all the more unjustifiable because there is no jeopardy contributing to the motive]; and the Jew says, "What profit do I have to cling to Israel? for they are downtrodden and chased after; it is better for me to leave the Torah and to cling to these other people because they have more power." One who does the likes of this is an apostate against the entire Torah.
--- End quote ---
Talmud Sanhedrin 38 has good discussion of how to deal with heretics concerning certain misquotes of Torah.
http://www.halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_38.html
Ephraim Ben Noach:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on October 22, 2012, 10:27:26 PM ---Very related from the Rambam. Read it, re-read it again and again. Internalize it and understand.
(Except in today's case, the list would include more things besides astrology, which is also still around today). For astrology you can and should add all "superstitious" beliefs and practices- red strings, "segulot", etc.)
This is what abolished our kingdom, destroyed our Beit HaMikdash, prolonged our exile, and brought us to our present predicament. Our fathers sinned and are no more.
For they found many astrology books, followed them, and went astray. They imagined that these wisdoms were glorious and greatly beneficial, and they did not study warfare and land conquest. Instead, they imagined that these wisdoms would help them. Therefore, the prophets called them fools; and they certainly were fools, for they followed vanities which cannot avail nor rescue, for they are vain. (Iggrot U'Teshuvot LeRambam, Iggrot Shonot, p. 21. 204)
--- End quote ---
Tag, Could I get some more resources on this please?
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