Author Topic: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)  (Read 23876 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2012, 08:36:12 PM »
Tag, Could I get some more resources on this please?

 What exactly? Would you like the whole letter of the RambaM ?

.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2012, 08:41:16 PM »
Serious question...  Rambam lived in the 1100's, were there other Torah scholars before him that spoke about the minim? Rambam was a man, so why does his teachings of oral law override the others before him, that's if they do? I hope this doesn't come off rude!

 Yes, the minim were mentioned in the Talmudh. The sages some time later as well established the prayer against the minim in the Shemono Esri prayers. Rambam came some time later and codified the laws in his book Mishna Torah.
 Not rude at all, and his laws don't necessarily override anyone else's. Just that he codified the laws very well and codified ALL of the laws dealing with probably every issue that his work hold's a lot of weight. He was also a great genius both in Torah -or "religious" and "secular" realms.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2012, 08:41:53 PM »
What exactly? Would you like the whole letter of the RambaM ?
No, I would like to know where the Rambam derived his response to astrology from?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2012, 08:43:28 PM »
Yes, the minim were mentioned in the Talmudh. The sages some time later as well established the prayer against the minim in the Shemono Esri prayers. Rambam came some time later and codified the laws in his book Mishna Torah.
 Not rude at all, and his laws don't necessarily override anyone else's. Just that he codified the laws very well and codified ALL of the laws dealing with probably every issue that his work hold's a lot of weight. He was also a great genius both in Torah -or "religious" and "secular" realms.
Ok, thank you!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2012, 09:05:47 PM »
No, I would like to know where the Rambam derived his response to astrology from?
The reason I ask is... Using astrology to tell the future is inappropriate, I understand that, but in a simple form it can be very useful. You kind of can tell the future with astrology, by paying attention to the moon phases and the seasons, represented by the Stars. You can tell the affects on the earth, and the habits of animals and their movements.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2012, 09:25:24 PM »
The reason I ask is... Using astrology to tell the future is inappropriate, I understand that, but in a simple form it can be very useful. You kind of can tell the future with astrology, by paying attention to the moon phases and the seasons, represented by the Stars. You can tell the affects on the earth, and the habits of animals and their movements.

 I think your describing ASTRONOMY, this is talking about ASTROLOGY. These are different things. In fact Astronomy and the movements of the stars etc. is highly praised and actually needed and used in Jewish law. Astrology on the other hand (those who say that this and this is going to happen because the stars are positioned in a certain way is wrong).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2012, 09:50:51 PM »
Tag, Could I get some more resources on this please?

That is from the Rambam... Look it up on the Chabad site...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2012, 09:55:23 PM »
That is from the Rambam... Look it up on the Chabad site...
No, I want the original teachings! I want to know where the Rambam got it from!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2012, 09:57:32 PM »
Regarding Astrology there is some support for it in the Talmud. I have also posted this before...

A Jew must never put his trust in Astrology because a Jew is above nature. This is the reason we must not consult the stars...

Quote

It is fascinating to note that the rabbis of the Talmud gave considerable credence to astrology. The Talmud states that “upon entry into the month of Adar one should become increasingly joyous. Rav Papa said: ‘Therefore a Jew should avoid litigation with gentiles in the month of Av, because his mazal is bad; and he should move the court case to the month of Adar, when his mazal is good.’”1 The Hebrew word which Talmud uses here, mazal, is usually translated “luck” but literally means “constellations.”

Astrology is not only a factor to be taken into account when planning future events—it also influences human nature. According to the Talmud, one born under the constellation of the sun will achieve eminence, and one born under Venus will become wealthy and immoral. One born under Mercury will be wise and have a retentive memory. One born under the Moon will suffer evil. One born under Saturn will suffer frustration, one born under Jupiter will be righteous, and one born under Mars will become either a surgeon or a slaughterer.2 A birthday is therefore viewed by the rabbis as a day on which personal astrological fortune is at its most potent.3

.
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2.   Talmud, Shabbat 156a. Although rabbinic consensus holds that Jews are not affected by mazal, the great medieval Talmudist Ritva (Rabbi Yom Tov ibn Asevilli, circa 1300) suggests that in this context the word mazal is to be understood as a generic term for “decree” rather than constellations. He thus suggests that when the rabbis of the Talmud say that Jews are not affected by mazal, they mean that they can subvert divine decrees through the performance of good deeds (Taanit 29a).
3.   See Jerusalem Talmud, Rosh Hashanah 3:8, regarding the Amalekites: in their war against the Israelites they used soldiers who were celebrating their birthday that day, so that they would have an astrological advantage over the enemy.



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2012, 10:00:20 PM »
No, I want the original teachings! I want to know where the Rambam got it from!

Thank may be difficult... Rambam died many centuries ago...

He also, regretfully, did not source a lot of his halachas...

Read this for some background on Rambams writings:

http://www.tzemachdovid.org/gedolim/rambam.html

Quote
OPPOSITION TO YAD HACHAZAKA

In Yad Hachazaka, the Rambam cites only halachic rulings, without presenting the sources from which he derived them, or the shakla ve'tarya surrounding them. His purpose was to enable all Jews, even those who were not outstanding scholars, to learn how to conduct themselves in daily life.

Even though the sages of the Rambam's time were aware of his intentions, some still opposed the Yad Hachazaka, fearing that many scholars might lose their initiative to probe the Gemara in depth.

The Rambam, however, stated that he never said that Torah scholars should refrain from engaging in deep Gemara study, and that Yad Hachazaka was meant for those unable to probe the Talmud's depths.

Still, gedolim such as the Raavad staunchly opposed it. He published his comments on Yad Hachazaka in a special book called Hasagos Haraavad.

Despite his opposition to the Rambam's approach, the Raavad held the Rambam in high esteem. In turn, the Rambam was not offended by the Raavad's opposition to him.

Although the Rambam didn't respond to the Raavad's claims, his student, Yonasan of Lunil, wrote a treatise in which he proved that the Rambam's rulings, as opposed to the Raavad's, were correct. Rav Yosef Caro also defended the Rambam in Kesef Mishneh.

Despite the criticism, Mishneh Torah was accepted all over the world, in all generations, as the seminal sefer of Halacha.

Quote
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/75991/jewish/Maimonides-His-Life-and-Works.htm

In this area, Maimonides was more than a trailblazer; to this very day the Mishneh Torah remains the only work of this scope. No other work – authored beforehand or afterwards – covers the entire corpus of Jewish law. (Even the commentaries on Jewish law authored before Maimonides omit the laws that were not germane at the time.)

Maimonides also placed great emphasis on making his works available and understandable to all Jews, scholars and laymen alike. He also omitted sources, for brevity's sake, though later scholars compiled sources for every statement in the Mishneh Torah. Because of his unique style and clarity, he became known as "The Golden Tongue."

Since Maimonides, many subsequent scholars have analyzed every word and even letter in his volumes. They discuss at length why Maimonides chose to include certain laws, wrote one law before another, and why he chose to include laws in one volume but not the other. Some have speculated that the body of commentary on Maimonides' volumes could reach the same quantity as Talmudic commentary.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2012, 12:25:08 AM »
Serious question...  Rambam lived in the 1100's, were there other Torah scholars before him that spoke about the minim? Rambam was a man, so why does his teachings of oral law override the others before him, that's if they do? I hope this doesn't come off rude!

Rambam gets his halacha from the Talmud.   Jews follow the Talmud because it's the embodiment of the other part of Torah (Oral Torah) which was given along with written Torah.
He quoted Rambam's opinion about the destruction of the Temple, not about minim.   So your question was unclear.   However, we can quote Rambam about minim too if you like.

Offline muman613

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2012, 01:03:47 AM »
Rambam gets his halacha from the Talmud.   Jews follow the Talmud because it's the embodiment of the other part of Torah (Oral Torah) which was given along with written Torah.
He quoted Rambam's opinion about the destruction of the Temple, not about minim.   So your question was unclear.   However, we can quote Rambam about minim too if you like.

I believe I reproduced it above...
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,64653.msg565775.html#msg565775

See also:
Quote
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/911896/jewish/Chapter-Three.htm

Halacha 7
Five individuals are described as Minim:

a) one who says there is no God nor ruler of the world;

b) one who accepts the concept of a ruler, but maintains that there are two or more;

c) one who accepts that there is one Master [of the world], but maintains that He has a body or form;

d) one who maintains that He was not the sole First Being and Creator of all existence;

e) one who serves a star, constellation, or other entity so that it will serve as an intermediary between him and the eternal Lord.

Each of these five individuals is a Min.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2012, 07:38:27 PM »
Rambam gets his halacha from the Talmud.   Jews follow the Talmud because it's the embodiment of the other part of Torah (Oral Torah) which was given along with written Torah.
He quoted Rambam's opinion about the destruction of the Temple, not about minim.   So your question was unclear.   However, we can quote Rambam about minim too if you like.
KWRBT, I was talking about two different things. What I'm wondering is if Rambams interpretation of the Talmud may have been influenced by the times in which he lived, or he was competing with other Jewish scholars, and he didn't know anything about astrology or Kabbalah, therefore he put a negative spin on it.

 Just a thought...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2012, 08:03:01 PM »
KWRBT, I was talking about two different things. What I'm wondering is if Rambams interpretation of the Talmud may have been influenced by the times in which he lived, or he was competing with other Jewish scholars, and he didn't know anything about astrology or Kabbalah, therefore he put a negative spin on it.

 Just a thought...

I have said this a million times in the forum. A JEW is NOT to put his trust in the stars, no matter if the Astrology is real or imagined. The issue, according to my understanding, is that the Talmud implies that there is something to the effect the stars have on events. This is evident in the Torah in the story of Exodus where the Pharaoh consulted his astrologer and it was predicted that the Jewish redeemer would be born, and they knew his downfall would be caused by water, so they threw all the Jewish boys into the Nile.

The reason we are commanded to not consult astrology is because Jews are supposed to believe that we are not influenced by the MAZAL (Constellations) because HASHEM is the ultimate source of everything, so even if the MAZAL indicates a bad omen a Jew should pray to Hashem to over-turn the bad mazal (sometimes translated as luck).

The idolatrous cults established the heavenly bodies as something to pay homage and worship to. Judaism rejects this practice because Hashem has made his will known through the giving of the Torah to the Jewish people. He has told us to ignore the stars as signs and place our entire trust in him.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2012, 08:06:19 PM »
http://ohr.edu/ask/ask044.txt
Quote
The word Mazal does not literally mean "luck."  "Mazal" is literally associated with the 12 signs of the Zodiac, which are called the "Mazalot," but we use the word in a way which means more than just the Zodiac.  Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto explains that there is a multi-leveled conceptual system through which G-d interacts with the physical Creation.  In other words, "energy" which originates with Hashem travels through this system and eventually reaches us.  At some point along the way, this energy is said to pass through the Mazalot, the stars and the planets, which then transfer it to the rest of Creation.  This explains how people trained in astrology may know what will happen to an individual in the future.  They are "reading," through the configuration of the Mazalot, the energy that is yet to be delivered.  However, we are actually forbidden to engage in the prediction of the future via astrology even though it may work.  The source of this prohibition is, "You shall be tamim (pure, perfect, simple) with the L-rd your G-d."

The Talmud cites three life-issues which are directly affected by the Mazalot:  life, children and livelihood.  Elsewhere the Talmud seems to contradict this and states that "There is no Mazal regarding the Jewish People."  The classical sources explain this to mean that the influence of Mazalot can be overcome by the Jewish People through prayer and other great merits.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2012, 08:08:13 PM »
It is Rambam who asserts that there is nothing to Astrology. I am not sure of the sources he uses for this.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2012, 08:41:12 PM »
KWRBT, I was talking about two different things. What I'm wondering is if Rambams interpretation of the Talmud may have been influenced by the times in which he lived, or he was competing with other Jewish scholars, and he didn't know anything about astrology or Kabbalah, therefore he put a negative spin on it.

 Just a thought...

 No, not at all. He said (in his letter on astrology-search it and if you need it and cant find it let me know I'll get it for you), that he investigated this matter deeply and found that it has absolutely no validity.
  By the way the Talmudh mentions many ideas that are rejected by the sages themselves. If you read further from those sources you brought about "mazal"  the decisive conclusion is "Ein Mazal LeIsrael"- their is no Mazal for Israel. Some take it to mean that for Israel their is not, but for others their is, but it is open to interpretation of what it was meant exactly. Fine. But in those cases the conclusion that the Rabbis came with is NOT to rely on astrology/zodiak etc. and that Teshuva and good dead's triumph any and all "Mazal" or luck. (for example the story of Rabbi Akiva's daughter) .
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2012, 08:46:14 PM »
The Month of Av: Unlucky or Misunderstood?
 
Matt Schneeweiss
 
 
 
 
Introduction
 
This past Shabbos was the first day of the month of Av. There appears to be a fairly prevalent belief that the month of Av is an "unlucky time." People rearrange their plans, pushing off certain "risky" endeavors until after the month of Av (or, at least, until after Tisha b'Av). They avoid things like traveling, surgery, and business ventures because they feel that undertaking these activities during the month of Av are dangerous and destined for failure. I have even heard and read the words of rabbis who refer to the month of Av as an "inauspicious (i.e. unlucky) time of the year for Jews."
 
But as we know, it is unwise to assume that a belief or practice is correct just because it is widespread. Let's see what the Torah has to say on this topic.
 
The Source of the Misconception
 
As far as I can tell, the source of this notion is a statement in the Gemara: "a Jew who has a court appointment at a non-Jewish court should try to avoid it during the month of Av because it has a bad mazal" (29b-30a). This statement is not just aggadah, but an actual halacha (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 551:1). On the surface, this halacha would seem to support the popular belief. Why else would we be cautioned to avoid non-Jewish courts during the month of Av if not for the fact that Av is an inauspicious time for Jews? It even uses the word “mazal,” which OBVIOUSLY means “luck”! (hint hint: that was intended to be facetious and thought-provoking)
The first step in investigating such a statement is to analyze it in its context. The full statement of the Gemara reads: “At the onset of the month of Av, we diminish our rejoicing: Just as we diminish rejoicing at the onset of the month of Av, so too, we increase rejoicing at the onset of the month of Adar. Rav Pappa said: Therefore, a Jew who has a court appointment at a non-Jewish court should try to avoid it during the month of Av because it has a bad mazal, but he should be present in court during the month of Adar because it has a good mazal.”

Even before we analyze this statement, we can see that the popular notion is not supported by the Gemara. According to the popular belief, we avoid court appointments with non-Jews because the month of Av has some unlucky quality. We see from the Gemara, however, that this is not the case. Rather, the month of Av generates a halachic obligation to diminish rejoicing, and THEREFORE we avoid court appointments with non-Jews. In other words, avoiding non-Jewish courts is an expression of our diminished rejoicing during the month of Av - not a precaution that we take in response to some harmful property inherent to the month itself. Granted, we must still explain the meaning of "bad mazal," but it is clear from the Gemara that avoiding non-Jewish courts stems from the obligation to diminish rejoicing.

Moreover, the Gemara only says to avoid non-Jewish courts. It does not say to avoid all "risky" ventures. Not only that, an exhaustive search throughout the halachic literature reveals no support for the common practice to avoid all “risky” activities during the month of Av. If the month of Av were truly "unlucky," the halacha would certainly tell us to avoid all forms of perilous activity, not just appointments at non-Jewish courts. According to halacha, there is no more reason to avoid "risky" activities during the month of Av than any other time of year.

Thus, although we haven't explained idea behind the Gemara's statement, we clearly see the lack of support for the popular interpretation. But before we try to understand the meaning of the Gemara's statement, I would like to discuss a major problem with the popular belief. According to my understanding, the popular belief is not only false, but may actually violate a biblical prohibition.

The Prohibition of Meonein
 
There is a bibilcal prohibition called "meonein." I haven't managed to find an adequate English translation of the term "meonein," so we'll stick with the Hebrew. The Sefer Ha'Chinuch (Mitzvah #250) provides the following definition of meonein, based on the words of the Sages: “The explanation of this subject is as it was given in the Midrash Sifra: [the Hebrew verb, te'oneinu, denotes] the sense of onah, a designated time - i.e. that we should not determine set times, to say that this hour is ‘good’ for doing that activity in it, and whoever does it at that time will succeed, and whoever does it at this other time will not succeed - as the deluding masters of sorcery say.”
 
In other words, meonein is the prohibition to designate a period of time as "good" or "bad" for certain activities; one who acts in accordance with this designation is liable for the penalty of whiplashes. The Rambam, in the Mishneh Torah (Laws of Idolatry and the Statutes of the Gentiles 11:9), elaborates on this prohibition of "designating times," and mentions additional examples: one who says that a specific day is a "good" or "bad" day for doing a particular activity, or a particular year, or a particular month.
 
The most common form of meonein is astrology. One who consults horoscopes or astrologers and acts on the basis of their counsel transgresses the Biblical prohibition of meonein. According to the Sefer Ha’Chinuch’s definition, not only astrology but any designation of a time period as "good" or "bad" for a certain activity falls into the scope of this prohibition.
 
Thus, the problem with the popular belief is clear. If a Jew believes that the month of Av is an “unlucky time” (thinking that this is what the Gemara meant) and avoids certain activities based on this belief, then he would seem to be in violation of the Biblical prohibition of meonein. In order to appreciate the severity of this transgression, let us analyze the harm of meonein.
 
What is Wrong with Me'onein?
There are several other Biblical prohibitions which belong to the same class as meonein. These include nichush (omen reading), koseim (fortune telling), chover chaver (reciting incantations), doreish el ha'meisim (consulting the dead), kishuf (sorcery), and others. The Rambam concludes his exposition of these prohibitions with the following explanation: 

“These practices are all false and deceptive and were means employed by the ancient idolaters to deceive the people of various countries and induce them to become their followers. It is not proper for Israelites, who are highly rational, to allow themselves to be deluded by such inanities or imagine that there is anything in them, as it is said, "For there is no enchantment with Jacob, neither is there any divination within Israel" (Bamidbar 23:23), and further, "For these nations that you are to dispossess hearken to soothsayers and diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God, has not suffered you so to do" (Devarim 18:14). Whoever believes in these and similar things and, in his heart, holds that they are true and scientific but forbidden by the Torah, is nothing but a fool with a deficient mind, who belongs to the same class with others whose intellects are immature. Intelligent people, however, whose rationality is intact, know by clear proofs that all these practices which the Torah prohibited have no scientific basis but are senseless and empty; and that only those with deficient minds are attracted by these follies and, for their sake, leave the ways of truth. The Torah, therefore, in forbidding all these follies, exhorts us, "You shall be wholehearted with the Lord your God" (ibid. 18:13).”

The Rambam's characterization of these prohibitions can be summed up in one phrase: all of these beliefs and practices are forms of magical thinking. There are three major problems with magical thinking: magical thinking constitutes a denial of the laws of nature, a denial of hashgacha pratis (particularly, reward and punishment), and a withdrawal from reality into the world of infantile fantasy. Let's examine each of these problems in detail.
 
Denial of Natural Law
 
The Torah maintains that Hashem created the entire universe with wisdom, as it is stated, "How great are your works, Hashem, You make them all with wisdom" (Tehilim 104:24), "Hashem founded the earth with wisdom; He established it with understanding" (Mishlei 3:19). The Torah refers to this concept as “Malchus Shamayim” (Kingship of Heaven) - the universal lawfulness that governs all of nature, including man. The premise of every scientific inquiry is that there is a universal lawfulness underlying all natural phenomena.
 
Magical thinking constitutes a denial of Malchus Shamyim because it posits the existence of supernatural forces which undermine Hashem's natural law. Magical thinking leads a person away from objective scientific knowledge into the realm of subjective imagination. The Rambam, far ahead of his time, recognized that these magical beliefs and practices have no scientific basis, and modern science supports his conclusion. Today the mainstream scientific community regards magic as a primitive product of human imagination and does not grant it any legitimacy.
 
A person who, in spite of his practical precautions, is afraid of the influence of harmful forces lacks trust in God. After Tisha b’Av we will recite the blessing over the moon, "Blessed are You, Hashem, our God, King of the universe, Who with His utterance created the heavens, and with the breath of His mouth all their legion. A decree and schedule did He give them that they not alter their assigned task." Natural law was created by the Word of Hashem, and the Word of Hashem is trustworthy and reliable. To assume that supernatural forces can overpower or undermine His law is to deny His Malchus, and to lack true emunah in His Word.
 
Denial of Reward and Punishment
 
The Sefer Ha'Chinuch agrees with the Rambam, but takes one step further. In his explanation of the prohibition of meonein (which can be found under the prohibition of menacheish, Mitzvah #249) the Sefer Ha'Chinuch writes:
 
“At the root of this mitzvah lies the reason that these things are matters of utter lunacy and folly, and for the truly holy people that God chose, it is not fitting that they should pay regard to false words. Moreover, they are a factor that thrusts a man away from conviction in the Eternal Lord and from His sacred Torah, to set him going from their midst to complete heresy: For he will reckon that all his good and bad fortune, all that happens to him, is a matter of chance occurrence, not by the hashgachah of the Creator. In consequence, he will thus abandon all the principles of the religion. Therefore, since the Eternal Lord desires our good, He commanded us to remove this thought from our heart, and to set firmly in our heart that all evil and good issue by the word of the One on high, according to a man's deeds, be they good or bad. And omens [and all forms of magic] neither help nor hinder - as it is written, "For there is no augury with Jacob, nor divination with Israel" (Bamidbar 23:23).”
"The Eleventh Fundamental Principle," according to the Rambam, is that Hashem "rewards with good those who fulfill the commandments of the Torah and punishes the one who transgresses its admonitions, and that the ultimate reward is the World to Come, and that the ultimate punishment is kareiss." Everything that happens to us is in accordance with Hashem's perfect justice, from which we can neither hide nor escape.

According to the Sefer Ha'Chinuch, one who subscribes to magical thinking ipso facto denies the principle of reward and punishment. What, exactly, does the meonein hope to accomplish by planning his activities around his so-called "unlucky" time? Does he believe there is some evil force out there that will harm him, contrary to Hashem's system of reward and punishment? Does he think that he can avoid Hashem's reward and punishment by simply rescheduling his activities for a different period of time? Either way, his maneuvering is premised upon a denial of reward and punishment. “Ein ohd milvado” – there is no other force out there which acts contrary to His Will and Wisdom.

Retreat into Infantile Fantasy

The Rambam writes that "only those with deficient minds are attracted by these follies and, for their sake, leave the ways of truth." On the surface, this doesn't seem to follow: Does the Rambam mean that just because a person believes in a false, unscientific idea, he will end up forsaking the "ways of truth"? Would the Rambam say the same thing about one who believes that the earth is flat, or some other theory that has been falsified by science?

In my opinion, the Rambam is referring specifically to those beliefs which can be described as magical thinking. All magical thinking caters to the egotistical, infantile fantasy that "I am the center of the universe, and everything revolves around my desires." This belief is infantile because it hearkens back to the period in one’s life in which this was, to some degree, true. In the infant’s world, he IS all-important. If the infant desires anything, reality (i.e. his parents) will respond to that desire. All he has to do is wish and cry, and all of his needs will be addressed.

Just as the infant exists in a world where his own existence has a primary importance, so too, the meonein views his own existence as having primary, cosmic significance. His belief in lucky and unlucky times is premised on the notion that the whole universe revolves around him. He believes that TIME ITSELF takes interest in his personal aspirations and plans, and aims to thwart them or to bring them to success.

This delusion is far from the truth. In reality, we humans are very insignificant. The days where we were the center of the world and where our desires were of primary importance have long since passed. "Olam k'minhago noheig." The laws of nature continue to operate in accordance with their set patterns, regardless of our personal strivings and ambitions. The period of time which the meonein believes is lucky or unlucky is nothing more than a position in the orbit of the earth around the sun. Our planetary position has no bearing on whether we will succeed or fail in our personal endeavors.

Thus, I do not believe that the Rambam would say that any scientifically disproved theory leads to a forsaking of the "ways of truth." The Rambam refers specifically to those unscientific beliefs which reinforce our deep desire to return to a state in which we are at the center of the universe. This is the root of avodah zarah.

For all these reasons (and more), Hashem – in His Wisdom and Kindness – sought to distance us from all forms of magical thinking, and to firmly establish in our hearts and minds the concept of Malchus Shamayim: there is no power other than Hashem, and everything happens in accordance with His Wisdom.

The Explanation of the Gemara

Unfortunately, it looks like I won’t have time to write an explanation of the Gemara’s statement in this issue. Check out my blog (http://kankanchadash.blogspot.com/) later on in the week. God willing, I will merit to understand the halacha and will write about it there. May we merit to do teshuvah from this and all other forms of avodah zarah, and bring about the restoration of Malchus Shamayim in the minds of all human beings.

http://mesora.org/UnluckyAv.htm
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2012, 08:48:34 PM »
Predictions
 
Rabbi Moshe Ben-Chaim
 
 
Reader: Could you tell me what is the Jewish opinion and belief of Nostradamus and his writings?
 
 
Mesora: If you ask, what is Judaism's view on man's ability to predict the future, the response is as follows: Man's mind is limited, primarily to the functions of comprehension, memory, comparison, analysis, induction, deduction, reason, intuition and imagination. Man cannot function outside of his limitations. Just as man cannot fly, as flight is outside our range of physical ability, so too is knowledge of the future outside the range of our mental ability. Without God informing us of the future, it is impossible for us to know it.
 
The reasons why predictions are impossible are three;
1) Foreknowledge: Our minds can only work with knowledge, and knowledge is always about something which already exists. The future does not exist, so we cannot know it with our minds' design.
2) Cause and Effect: We reason based on cause and effect relationships, and our minds cannot grasp the vast number of factors contributing to future events.
3) The Freewill Factor: The future of Earth is most certainly centered around man, who functions outside of cause and effect, as we each have freewill. This precludes our cause and effect reasoning from arriving at any accuracy of prediction.
 
 
Reader2: I read your answer to the question about Nostradamus (I have copied it below). I was surprised to read the answer. The 1st paragraph was correct but left out the possibility that man can predict the future, although that future is changeable. We say that Adam HaRishon told Hashem that he would not have children and he learned this from the Mazalot. We have cases in the gemara where men predict the future. The whole idea of MAZAL applies to individuals (eyn mazal l'yisrael is only applicable as a nation). We know of Rabbi Akiva's fear about his daughter's possible death on her wedding night... The list goes on. We now shy away from learning from the Mazalot but they were a way of telling the future even though they were not 100 percent effective.
 
Mesora: 3 Points:
1) You take midrashim literally, this is an error.
2) You also contradict yourself when you say, "even though they were not 100 percent effective..." Prediction, by definition, means 100% accuracy. Anyone can be partially correct. This is precisely why the Torah demands 100% accuracy for determining one a prophet of God. The Torah realizes that people can be partially correct, and that foreknowledge is humanly impossible. The Torah thereby teaches that the only valid proof that one has future knowledge, is that it is divine in origin.
3) You have also not shown any flaw in my reasoning.

http://www.mesora.org/predictions.html
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2012, 08:55:51 PM »
Astrology (With sources)
http://www.mesora.org/astrology.htm

Pharaohs astrologers 1
http://www.mesora.org/pharaohsastrologers.html

part 2
 http://www.mesora.org/PharaohsAstrologersII.html


 for more related posts go to
 http://www.mesora.org/search/
 
 and put in search either "Astrology" or " predictions" or any related words.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2012, 09:58:51 PM »
I disagree with Rambam and this rabbi on several topics.

The revealed miracle is a change in the natural laws, so that we can see the hand of Hashem revealed in this world. We learn that the generation of the Exodus witnessed things at Mount Sinai which even the highest prophet was unable to see. The splitting of the sea was so powerful that even the hand-maid said "This is my G-d" and pointed with their finger, so much they could feel the presence of Hashem.

The Jew is above the natural law. This is learned from next weeks Parasha where G-d takes Abraham out of his tent, and tells him to count the stars, the point being that the Jewish people are above the stars {and through this we learn that all of Israel has no Mazal {The Astrology has no real power over the Jew}}.

Quote
http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/578569/jewish/Above-the-Stars.htm

"Mazal" does not mean "luck", as is usually understood. Rather it refers to the sefira of keter from which divine energy flows forth (in Hebrew, "nozel", directly related to the word "mazal") to the other sefirot, and ultimately to the physical world. The practical implications of this outflow can be foretold using the science of astrology (as known to the Sages), which examines the position of the heavenly constellations (mazalot) at the time of a person's birth.

We deduce that Abraham saw in his constellation that he would not have a son. But the Holy One "took him outside", which the Rabbis interpret as meaning: "Dissociate yourself from your astrological predictions." He thus raised Abraham above the stars [i.e. beyond the realm of reason and nature] and told him, "Now gaze at the heavens and count the stars…," promising him that his offspring would be as numerous as the stars.

We must now explain these words of the Rabbis: Before the Torah was given to Israel all creatures were dependent upon their mazal, including children, health and livelihood. But when G-d gave the Torah to Israel, He removed the control of the stars and constellations over them [for the Torah itself transcends the world].

This we learn from Abraham, for his descendants would in the future receive the [Hebrew letter] hei from his name, alluding to the five books of the Torah.

I do believe that there is power of the stars over the activities of man. It is a rational belief, not an irrational one as some suggest. It is obvious that everything in the world has some influence over other things, we are all inter-related. To say that my neighbor doesn't have influence over me and my world is ignoring the fact that we don't exist in a vacuum.

Our planet is influenced by gravitational forces, by x-ray radiation, and spiritual forces which we cannot even measure. Science has only recently discovered some of these forces, and even the quantum physics are discovering forces which have an effect on all of life. The fact is that these are natural forces. Hashem has instructed us, the Jewish people, to not rely on these natural forces, and to look to him to be able to save us from the effects of nature.

So I disagree with a good deal of what was posted above..

Here is Rabbi Lazer Brody explaining some of these ideas (in relation to the miracle of Purim):
http://www.breslev.co.il/video-stream/asx/brody51.asx
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2012, 10:24:36 PM »
Ephrain- What, What and again what? I didnt understand anything you said.

 Muman-You contradict yourself from what you said in the beginning (of the last post) and later on in that same post.
 "The splitting of the sea was so powerful that even the hand-maid said "This is my G-d" and pointed with their finger, so much they could feel the presence of Hashem."

 Exactly it was G-D and not no star or constellation. That is precisely the point.

  "{The Astrology has no real power over the Jew}}."

  Great point. and you know why? First off even by your claims the astrologers have no real power period. It is the stars that supposedly do. Secondly your answer, answers the point. The astrologers have no real power, and real power over the Jew because the Jew is not supposed to believe in their soo-called "power". They are powerless, and the only "power" that they do get is the power of influence on the people's mind's that accept their influence. It is very connected to the "power of suggestion" if you will. That is why a Jew who follows the Torah and realizes that this is non-sense cannot be influences by them in the slightest way. The nations of the world, traditionally believed in all of these "powers" and the vast majority were literally star worshipers. It is those silly beliefs that actually gave "power" to the astrologers and those who spoke and speak cryptically with things extremely open to interpretation.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2012, 10:31:23 PM »
I disagree with Rambam and this rabbi on several topics.


 Disagreement of the Rambam on this is not just a matter of outlook. It also deals in the realm of Halacha and the RambaM and sefer Hachinuch for example bring things connected to this in the laws against "Avoda Zara" -foreign worship.  p.s. ( I know their are those who try to claim, well avoda zara is real, but we are not allowed to "tap into that power" I heard this first hand from a "rabbi") What a foolish statement, because our Torah ridicules anything and everything connected to idolatry in the extreme. 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2012, 11:51:06 PM »

 Muman-You contradict yourself from what you said in the beginning (of the last post) and later on in that same post.
 "The splitting of the sea was so powerful that even the hand-maid said "This is my G-d" and pointed with their finger, so much they could feel the presence of Hashem."

 Exactly it was G-D and not no star or constellation. That is precisely the point.

  "{The Astrology has no real power over the Jew}}."

  Great point. and you know why? First off even by your claims the astrologers have no real power period. It is the stars that supposedly do. Secondly your answer, answers the point. The astrologers have no real power, and real power over the Jew because the Jew is not supposed to believe in their soo-called "power". They are powerless, and the only "power" that they do get is the power of influence on the people's mind's that accept their influence. It is very connected to the "power of suggestion" if you will. That is why a Jew who follows the Torah and realizes that this is non-sense cannot be influences by them in the slightest way. The nations of the world, traditionally believed in all of these "powers" and the vast majority were literally star worshipers. It is those silly beliefs that actually gave "power" to the astrologers and those who spoke and speak cryptically with things extremely open to interpretation.

Shalom Tag,

Im sorry you feel I contradicted myself, but obviously that could not be the case. What it seems is that I was not clear enough to express my thought to you.

1) I have never discussed 'Astrologers' or those who engage in Astrology. I am just pointing out that I do believe that there is a thing called 'Mazel' or an influence on this world by the Constellations and Heavenly bodies.

2) I do not consult the stars, nor do I ascribe any power of their own to them. My belief is not avoda zara but the belief that everything Hashem created is inter-related and has an influence on its surroundings, both physically and spiritually.

3) I was trying to explain, against what it seems the Rabbi you posted says, that miracles are not just the big events which the Torah brings (such as the Abraham being rescued from the fiery furnace, or the fact that Noah was able to fit all the animals in the Teivah, or even the Ten Plagues and the Splitting of the Sea). Miracles happen at a personal level (at least according to my experience) if a person merits such providence in the 'eye' of Hashem.

So let me re-iterate my understanding, in case there is confusion:

1) It is PROHIBITED to consult with the dead, this is clear from the commandments.

2) It is PROHIBITED to consult the stars, or other ways of discovering the future, as this too is a clear commandment.

3) It is PERMITTED for a Jew to pray to Hashem in the merit of a righteous Jew.

4) The Jew must have absolute trust and faith in Hashem which is why, according to my understanding, that we are prohibited from engaging in the practices the nations engage in to determine providence. A Jew can, through Teshuva, alter any 'decree' which Hashem has on our people {this too is learned from Purim}.

If I have not been clear about my understanding, please allow me to clarify.

Thank you,
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2012, 06:35:45 PM »
KWRBT, I was talking about two different things. What I'm wondering is if Rambams interpretation of the Talmud may have been influenced by the times in which he lived, or he was competing with other Jewish scholars, and he didn't know anything about astrology or Kabbalah, therefore he put a negative spin on it.

 Just a thought...

There is nothing up for debate about there being such a thing as minim and a role for such people in halacha.

About astrology:  if I remember correctly, there were statements throughout the Talmud, some in acceptance of astrology or at least seemingly certain aspects of it, and some clearly against.  Rambam used his sound judgment to reject astrology entirely as a worthless endeavor.  And he was way ahead of his time intellectually.  It was only in a later period in history that the world at large came to reject astrology as a baseless "witch craft" like farce and not real science.

Rambam described "kabalah" as the transmission of the Oral Torah (ie talmud and mishnaic halachic parameters were the kabalah accepted by the Jewish people upon themselves).  Kabalah you refer to and referred to today is something else entirely.  He could certainly be unaware of something that was not in written form until at least a century after he died!   But the presumption of certain people that had he become aware of the modern day kabalah he would "accept it" is absurd.  He had his own hashkafic system and not all of us have to follow the worldview of modern day kaballah.   And he very clearly did not preach those concepts.