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The Disputation - Nachmanides Debates Before King James.....

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muman613:
I don't think what Ramban said was revolutionary. I don't know who it is who teaches that Moshiach will be a divine being {except for Christianity}. And concerning the Medrashim which are discussed in the Talmud, as we all know that there is debate between the Rabbis of the Talmud, and we {at least I was taught} have to take from each Rabbi the wisdom which was intended. This wisdom is not always literal, but it is true on some level, and through our understanding we can discover what this wisdom is.

This is why it can be said that Moshiach has already been born, and yet we do not see him today.

The Ramban, in this movie, does say that things will change in the Messianic age. I do believe that things will be quite different, not through physical miracles, but through a basic change of heart of the Jewish people. This change of heart is miraculous, considering how difficult it is to get Jews to agree on anything, and this change will be what indicates that Moshiach is here.

Rambam in this movie says that the era of peace itself will be the sign that Moshiach has come, that when we 'beat sword into plowshare' this will be the sign that Moshiach has come. Mankind has not been peaceful since we were placed into Gan Eden, with one fight leading to another leading to all out war. When the Jews are able to bring about the understanding that Hashem is the ONE G-d who has love for his creations, can the Moshiachs mission begin. I think it will take both our effort, and strength given from above, to achieve these changes.

muman613:
Another issue concerning the nature of the final redemption...

It is also related that the final redemption will be similar to the redemption of the Jewish people from Egypt. What does this mean? Does it mean that Hashem will permit the Moshiach to bring plagues on the nations? Does it mean that we will again witness something akin to the splitting of the sea?

Some think this is so... And there is reason to consider it...

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/cgi-bin/calendar?holiday=pesach104218


--- Quote ---The First and Final Redemption

The last day of Passover, known as Acharon Shel Pesach, concludes the theme of liberation and redemption from exile. While the first night of Passover commemorates the redemption from exile in Egypt, the final day celebrates the future Redemption, which G-d will bring about through Moshiach. [ 1 ]

The connection between the first and the last redemptions is also gleaned from the verse: [ 2 ] "As in the days when you left Egypt, I shall show you wonders [during the final Redemption]."

Our Rabbis ask: [ 3 ] Why does the verse say "As in the days when you left Egypt," when the Exodus took place on one day, as the verse states: [ 4 ] "Remember this day on which you left Egypt."

On the day the Jewish slaves left Egypt they achieved the status of free people. [ 5 ] This transition, however, is an ongoing experience that requires constant meditation on the concepts of slavery and freedom. A person's ruminations must have a salutary effect on his daily conduct.

This is why spiritual redemption from all straits and limitations that constitute spiritual Egyptian exile is an ongoing process, notwithstanding the fact that the Jews' physical Exodus took only one day.

This is expressed by our Sages when they state: [ 6 ] "In each and every generation and on each and every day, every man is obligated to see himself as if he had gone out from Egypt on that very day." Man's viewing the Exodus from Egypt as a continuous process will lead to daily improvement in conduct as well - as befits a free man.

Both the first and the final redemption involve the liberation of all the Jewish people. Just as the Exodus encompassed the entire nation and resulted from the Jews' collective service, so will the future Redemption liberate all Jews from exile, and it too will result from our collective efforts.

This collective liberation and effort came about during the Exodus as a result of the effort of each Jew, who first liberated himself from his own spiritual exile. And so with the final liberation: the efforts of each and every Jew in redeeming himself from spiritual exile will result in the collective redemption of all Jews from the final exile.

In practical terms, the lesson from the above is that each and every Jew is entrusted by G-d with a unique mission that he, and only he, is capable of accomplishing. He cannot rely on someone else to fulfill that mission for him, for the other individual is entrusted with his own mission.

On the other hand, each person must also realize that he is part of a collective - the Jewish nation. His mission is thus of vital importance not only to himself but to all the Jewish people. Fulfilling his mission as an individual thus helps the Jewish people fulfill their mission as a collective whole. Ultimately, each Jew's personal redemption from spiritual exile leads to the collective redemption of all Jews from the final exile.
--- End quote ---

Tag-MehirTzedek:
Muman- before reading what you posted (last) you hould know that their are many sources saying the redemption will be like the one in Purim. "Hidden miracles". This is said both in Bavli and Yerushalmi sources.

muman613:

--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on October 30, 2012, 03:32:34 PM ---Muman- before reading what you posted (last) you hould know that their are many sources saying the redemption will be like the one in Purim. "Hidden miracles". This is said both in Bavli and Yerushalmi sources.

--- End quote ---

Let me find these quotes... But this is still fine... I believe that a lot of things are miraculous, and it doesn't bother me that it will be like Purim... Purim is a great day, like Yom Kippur...

Kahane-Was-Right BT:

--- Quote from: Zelhar on October 30, 2012, 01:27:29 PM ---I think Rav Bar Haim is a Yemenite rambamist isn't he ? They have very little influence in the Torah world. Quite unfortunately in my opinion but this is how it is. The highest authority lies in the hands of the Charedi liitvak rabbis, and the most prestigious yeshivas are theirs.

--- End quote ---

He is not a "rambamist" although he generally paskens in line with Rambam on the majority of issues.  He is also not yemenite, but he studied as a close talmid under Rav Kapach for many years so there will be things in common between him and the Yemenites.

However you are mostly correct that he doesn't have that much influence on the Torah world (really, the haredi world) since he is seen mainly as a religious zionist Rav (although he is not firmly of that "camp" either since he feels they have strayed from the approach of Rav Kook (the father) ).  He studied in Mercaz Harav for 15 years.  But I noticed that there is a collection of haredim in addition to religious zionists who are attending his shiurim.  Usually these were people who think somewhat differently than the society around them and that was how they were drawn to Rav Bar Hayim's Torah.   This is what I gathered from attending his shiur myself.

I tend to believe his way of thinking will spread to more people and more rabbis as the haredi society evolves and deals with certain emerging issues.

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