conversion

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Just soo I see this post and not forget, I will post this on future ASK JTF show.

 Shalom Chaim,
   
 Do you believe that the current conversion process is too strict upon the converts and wrong? Or do you believe it should be done or even stricter? Please share your thoughts upon this important issue.

Also to everyone else, here is a video I am watching on this (in the middle of it) shedding some (I would guess for today would be the "lenient" opinion on this issue).
 (First Hebrew then in English, back and forth translation)

 I am not here to say which is correct or which is wrong right now, perhaps in some time I will post different opinions on this from Meza (who says to preach and convert) to Syrian community (who basically do not convert others today at all)

 

[muman613]

Personally I think the current Orthodox method of conversion is satisfactory.

As we know we don't want everyone to convert to Judaism because as religious Jews we recognize that keeping commandments is a demanding lifestyle. To increase the number of Jews may seem like a good thing, but if these Jews are of low spiritual quality they may end up doing more damage than good.

I believe this is one of the lessons we learn from the Erev Rav. These were Egyptians who recognized Hashems 'hand' in the world, as expressed through the revelation of the Ten Plagues. These Egyptians realized that when Moshe told them that Hashem would unleash a plague on the land, that it was going to come true because Hashem is in control of nature and everything. So these Egyptians asked Moses to leave Egypt with us and Moses acquiesced. The Midrashim state that Hashem advised against taking these Erev Rav (The Mixed Multitude) out of Egypt because they only wanted to convert because they were impressed with the spectacular events of the plagues (Frogs, Fire/Ice Hail, Darkness, Death) and not because they desired to do the will of Hashem.

The Erev Rav did not join the Jews with the right intentions. When Moses was late coming back from Sinai with the Aseret HaDibroth (Ten Commandments) these Erev Rav insisted that the people build the Golden Calf. This sin virtually destroyed the Jewish people in the 'eyes' of Hashem. If not for Moses love the the people we would have been dust in the wind.

So Orthodox conversion requires the person to be turned away or told that being a Jew is not something to take lightly. They are told that if they do not keep the commandments they may bring punishment to themselves, and the Jewish people as a whole. With this in mind the convert has to really desire being a Jew, and being reminded that in the eyes of the nations we are loathed.

I agree with this because I agree with the idea that we need more high-level Jews, ones who truly desire to observe commandments. A true Jew wants to be given the chance to perform the mitzvot with love and reverance. And when we sin we regret, and go through a teshuva process, and in the time of the Temple we bring Korbanot. A convert may not truly understand these deeper concepts of what a Jew should yearn for.

The reformers may just want to have more people attend their synagogues. This is the way it is with reform or progressive synagogues. When I started my return I found a local synagogue which is progressive and they allow anyone to be counted in the minyan, and they Bar Mitzvah non-Jews too.

[muman613]

Some information in support of my comparison to Erev Rav:


http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5758/beshalach.html

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Who were the Erev Rav anyhow?

First of all, we have it on tradition that every time the Torah refers to ha'umm (the people; heh, ayin, mem), it is referring to the Erev Rav ("umm" itself refers to the Jewish people;ayin, mem). The first time we see this usage is back at the beginning of Parashas Shemos, Chapter 1, Verse 20:

G-d dealt well with the midwives, and the people (ha-umm) multiplied, and become very mighty.

According to the Arizal, the Erev Rav were Egyptian converts to "Judaism" (or at least what they saw of it through Ya'akov and his family). They lived in a community of their own, and did not act like the rest of the Egyptians around them. Paroah knew about them, but was less concerned about them than the real sons of Ya'akov and their descendants. According to the Arizal, Paroah felt that they would return back to Egyptian ways after the Jewish people had been "appropriately" dealt with.

In fact, according to the Ohr HaChaim HaKadosh on the first verse of this week's parsha, the reference to ha-umm refers to the Erev Rav, who had been sent along with Moshe and the Jewish people-by Paroah. He had done this so that they could act as spies and to sow dissension among the Jews, to make sure they would want to return to Egypt after serving G-d in the desert for three days. They certainly acted their part (they were the ones to antagonize Moshe at the Red Sea and just about everywhere else)!

But why would any Egyptian, in advance of the plagues, want to convert to Judaism?

The answer to this question also comes from the Arizal, but it is a little beyond the scope of this parsha page to go into such (Kabballistic) detail. In short, the Erev Rav were Egyptians who possessed special souls that had been reincarnated several times, on their way to becoming fully rectified for something that had gone wrong during Adam HaRishon's lifetime. Moshe knew this, and this is why he had hoped to finish the process by bringing them along with the Jewish people.
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[muman613]

More on the Erev Rav:

http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5770/kisisa.html

Parshas Ki Sisa - Parah

G-d told Moshe, "Go down. Your people which you brought out of Egypt have corrupted themselves." (Shemos 32:7)

Ah, the Erev Rav, where would the world have been without them? Where would the world be without them today? In Yemos HaMoshiach, that's where. All that went wrong for the Jewish people in the desert was instigated by the Mixed Multitude, just as G-d had forewarned Moshe Rabbeinu back in Egypt, on the way out.

And now, in this week's parshah, their coupe de grace: the golden calf. Had it not been for the Erev Rav, the Jewish people would have waited peacefully at the foot of the mountain in their camp below for Moshe Rabbeinu to return with the Word of G-d. Maybe they would have asked, "What's taking him so long?" and been a bit concerned.

But, they certainly would not have responded with idol worship and licentious behavior. Only the Erev Rav, as intelligent as some of them may have been at the time, could do something so dumb at Mt. Sinai. It is always amazing how a bad trait can lay waste to intelligence, even use it to engineer one's own destruction. We're watching the very same thing happen today as well.

Interestingly enough, another name for the Erev Rav was "HaAm," or "the people," as noted above. In fact, Chazal say that every time the Torah refers only to HaAm, which, on a simple level, can apply to the Jewish people as well, it is really a direct reference to the Erev Rav themselves. Hence, when the verse says:

After Pharaoh sent the people away. G-d did not lead them through the land of the Philistines . (Shemos 13:17)

the Ohr HaChaim HaKadosh says that it refers to the Erev Rav, whom Pharaoh sent along with the Jewish people to cause precisely the kind of trouble they cause in this week's parshah.

[muman613]

One more on the Erev Rav:

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/parsha/dimension/archives/kisisa60.htm

"And Hashem said to Moshe: Go, descend, for your nation that you brought up from Egypt has corrupted their ways." (Shmos 32:7)

"It does not say 'the nation has become corrupted', but, rather, 'your nation' - the Erev Rav that you accepted on your own, and converted, without consulting Me...." (Rashi, ad. loc.)

As Chazal explain, while the B'nai Yisrael did not prevent its occurrence, it was only the mixed multitude that actually worshipped the Egel.

What was their motive?

"We see, that you, Israel, you have everything dear and precious in the world, while we are pushed aside. With you - 'V'Hashem Holech Lifneihem' - we also want 'Elohim Asher Yelchu L'Faneinu' - just as G-d walks before you." (Zohar)

To all appearances, Moshe Rabbeinu is gone. The man who brings the nation and its followers under the canopy of G-d, taking them across a bare and barren desert and teaching the D'var Hashem will no longer lead us to the promised land. What are we to do?

The Chet HaEgel is this: when Moshe Rabbeinu, the agent of G-d, is no longer here to guide us, we will create a substitute of our own.

They fail to realize that only one man can bring G-d down to earth, there are no surrogates for Moshe Rabbeinu. It is the Torah that he brings down to earth that directs our life, and in its absence, nothing else will do.

Though the B'nai Yisrael merely watch with amusement the raucous laughter of the Erev Rav, something undetected rubs off, and the Jewish people are tainted forever with a foreign idea. After the death of Moshe Rabbeinu, when his voice can no longer be heard, the descendants of the Dor HaMidbar are destined to wander in strange pastures. Adopting varied guises, the impure sound of the Egel echoes still: we can find our way to G-d without Moshe Rabbeinu.

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"The clouds of glory that traveled in the Midbar surrounded only the B'nai Yisrael, and the Erev Rav traveled outside the camp....and they said: 'either we will all be one nation, and we will join together with you, or, we should also have someone to walk before before us, as G-d who walks before you."

"Said Aharon: G-d forbid that these people should join together with the Am Kadosh. Rather, it's best to separate them from the Am Kadosh until Moshe returns. And Aharon meant well..." (Zohar)

The Erev Rav is not truly Klal Yisrael. Though they are taken out of Egypt, escaping the wrath of G-d, they are unable to accept the Luchos, the tablets that bind G-d and His people.

Moshe descends from the mountain, and as Aharon surmised, the sin of the Egel destroys this connection between man and his creator. Unfortunately, Klal Yisrael themselves fall prey to the insidious rebellion, and Moshe must ascend once again to bring down Luchos of a different sort.

After breaking the tablets, Moshe was pained by his actions:

"...Hashem said to him: Do not feel bad over the first tablets, which contained only Aseres HaDibros, the second tablets which I will give you have Halachos, Midrash, and Aggados..." (Shmos Rabbah 46:1)

Why were the Luchos destroyed if the same commandments were destined to be replaced in any case? Is there a difference between the first and second tablets?

The Midrash is saying this: In the first tablets, all the Torah existed as one; both the written and oral components of G-d's word were perceived as one self-contained whole.

In the second tablets, the Torah SheBa'al Peh exists as an independent entity, one that needs to be accepted in its own way, on its own terms.

The written Torah is presented by G-d as a fait accompli - a pure, uncorrupted vision of the world as it is meant to be.

When Klal Yisrael is shown to be undeserving of this gift, Moshe breaks the Luchos, for they cannot be erased, and returns with a Torah of a different sort, accessible only to those who strive to be worthy of its demands.

Unlike the Torah SheB'Ksav, the Oral Law is acquired only through toil and strife, hours upon hours of unceasing struggle.

The sin of the Egel separates the men from the boys, those who look for a free ride to utopia, from those who recognize that Torah is not acquired automatically.

The Erev Rav has left their mark on Klal Yisrael. In one family, from the same parents, one son may choose the path of Moshe Rabbeinu, while his sibling chooses to dance with the Egel.

The Egel is a rejection of Kabbalas HaTorah, the inability to commit one's life to one all-encompassing task, and the unwillingness to focus his efforts and energy and decipher the hidden will of Hashem.

This golden calf brings suffering and despair to each generation, but, ironically, it provides a silver lining - casting off those who don't belong.

The Torah is ours for the taking - but, only for those willing to stay the course.

"Lech Rade, Ki Shecheis Amcha Asher He'elisa MeiEretz Mitzraim"

[muman613]

This site seems to confirm some of my points:


http://www.milknhoney.co.il/new/conversion.new.html

Judaism's Acceptance of Converts

Is it possible to reconcile the following Rabbinic sources?

The Only Reason G-d exiled the Jews among the nations was so that converts could be added (Pesachim 87b)

Continuous evil comes to those who accept converts (Yevamot 109b)

Converts are hard for Israel like a nasty soar. (Yevamot 109b)

'The Souls they made in Charan' These are the converts which Avraham and Sarah converted. This teaches us that whoever brings a gentile close and converts him it is as if he created that person (Bereshit Rabah 39)

The names of Gerim are dear to me like idolatrous wine poured on the alter. (Vayikra Rabah 1)

Even a gentile who converted and busies himself with Torah is considered like the Cohen Gadol. (Bamidbar Rabah 8)

Come and see how beloved converts are to G-d... (Ruth Rabah 2)

Although most of the laws of conversion to Judaism are straight forward, the reality of the matter can be as difficult as reconciling the above.

Yitro was Moshe Rabienu's Father in-law. According to many he was one of the first Gerey Tzedek - True Convert. However, the familial relation between him and Moshe was probably not the smoothest since Yitro was a Median idolatrous priest before his conversion.

And Moshe said to Chovav Ben Reuel the Midyanite, Moshe's Father In-Law, We are traveling to the place which G-d said he would give us, come with us and we will be good to you because G-d has spoken well of Israel. (Bamidbar 10-29)

The Midrash informs us that Moshe's father In-Law had many names. He was called Chovav because of his love for doing Mitzvot. His more popular name was Yitro. He was called Yitro because his suggestion added an extra paragraph to the Torah. The Pasuk and the Midrash demonstrate how accepting Judaism can be of converts. The Perasha containing the Ten Commandments is called Yitro.

However, Moshe Rabienu's relationship with his father in-law who is so beloved to the Jewish people did not necessarily start out in the most kosher way. Another Midrash which seems in opposition to the one above says that Yitro only agreed to give Moshe his daughter to marry if their first born was to be dedicated to Idolatry. Some say that this is the reason why Moshe did not circumcise his first born son until Moshe's life was endangered. (Torah Shelemah ?)

Building on this particular Midrash is Avot of Rabbi Natan and Baba Batra 109b which says that Yehonatan Ben Gershom Ben Menasheh who served as an Idolatrous priest (Shoftim 18-30) was really Moshe Rabienu's Grandson. Since the king Menasheh was terribly evil the Tanach made a play on words but "in reality" this Idol Worshipping Levite was really Moshe's Grandson.

These three Midrashic sources are not necessarily historic. However, they do accurately portray Jewish attitudes towards the assimilation of converts into the Jewish people.

They refer to Moshe Rabbienu who was the greatest man in Jewish history. They discuss his father In-Law who, as a convert, had a tremendous positive impact on the Torah's Judicial system and Judaism as a whole.

The Midrash is actually saying that Moshe in some way agreed to have his child dedicated to sick idolatrous practices. In saying that Moshe Rabbienu agreed our Rabbis of Blessed Memory touch on the negative side of relations between a Jew and his spouse's relatives. While trying to keep family relations Jews are usually flexible towards "that" part of the family.

The Statement in Avot of Rabbi Natan is saying that Yehonatan's great grandfather, Yitro, had an effect on him which "opened his mind" up to pagan customs. Is it possible that a convert as great and devout as Yitro could have a negative effect on his progeny?

What we have discussed until now refers to very devout converts to Judaism. However, not all converts to Judaism are whole hearted. Towards converts like Yitro we must be accepting. What should we do about those with ulterior motives? Throughout the ages accepting people with ulterior motives too seems to be an argument, although there does appear to be a lenient attitude.

In Bamidbar (11-4) we meet the Asafsuf. "The Asafsuf lusted for meat." These troublemakers riled up the whole nation to complain about the lack of meat. According to our Rabbis these  people were trouble maker Gerim. They were the Erev Rav - a group of Egyptians who were impressed by the miraculous defeat of Egypt. They decided to follow the Jewish people. Their complaints about the Epicurean situation in the desert caused very many people to die.

Many converts and their offspring have done tremendous good for the Jewish people. Onklus the Convert comes to mind first. He translated the Torah into Aramaic so that the masses could understand it. Rabbi Akivah's grandparents were converts. Although he started out having great hatred for Rabbis he subsequently became one of the greatest leaders in Jewish History and was punished for this with a slow death at the hands of the Romans.

Our Rabbis of Blessed Memory have said that the prophet Ovadiah was an Edomite convert to Judaism. (Sanhedrin 39b) His prophesy predicts the downfall of Edom whose spiritual forebearers are the Christians.

However, Encyclopedia Judaica points out that according to Josephus during the time that the Bet Hamikdash was being destroyed many converts turned Jews into the Roman Authorities. I met several converts who when they converted were very honest about Judaism and Torah. However, after a while they got fed up with it and now hate most things which smell of Judaism.

The last two chapters of The Book of Ezra discusses the annals of the Jews who returned from the Persian exile. The last two chapters discuss how Ezra forced all of the returned exiles to divorce their gentile spouses and to disown their children. Ezra did not give the spouse's any option to convert.

Our Rabbis of Blessed Memory have said that no two prophets prophesy in the same way even if they are discussing the same issue. This seems true when we view some of Ezra's early contemporaries.

And many nations and great societies will come to look for the G-d of Hosts in Jerusalem and to seek G-d's favor. This is what the  G-d of Hosts says, during those days 10 people of all of the foreign tongue will grab onto the corner of a Jew's garment and say let us come with you because we have heard that G-d is with you. (Zechariah 8-22,23)

From the East all the way to the West my name is great among the nations.... (Malachi 1-11)

The attitude discussed by these prophets seems to be welcoming of Gentiles who are seeking G-d and Torah. It seems difficult that these prophets spoke of universalism just a few years prior to many people being forced to divorce their loved ones. However, it must be noted that Ezra viewed the gentile spouses as ordinary idolaters. They continued to practice idolatry and were still filled with the filth of the gentiles. (Ezra 9-1 using the word "To'eva")

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The Rambam is very central to this discussion of accepting Converts. (Isurie Biah ch. 13)

14. Do not entertain the thought that Shimshon the Savior of Israel or Shlomo the King of Israel who was called "friend of G-d" married foreign women while they were still gentiles. Instead the real reason is as follows: The correct mitzvah is that when a potential convert, whether man or woman, comes to convert he needs to be checked after. Perhaps he wants to convert for money that he will get,  or an authoritative position or out of some fear he would like to convert. If he is a man it should be checked whether he is converting in order to marry a Jew. And if she is a woman then it should be checked whether her eyes have been put on a Jewish boy. If no motive is found then they should be informed about the yoke of following the Torah and how difficult it is for the ignorant to follow the torah. This is done in order to convince them not to convert. If they accept this and are not turned off and we see that they are returning out of love [for G-d] as it says [in The Book of Ruth] "Because she was stubborn to go with her and she stopped trying to convenience her."

15. Therefore, The Bet Din did not accept any converts during the days of David and Shlomo. During the days of David because they might have returned out of fear. During the days of Shlomo because they might be converting to participate in the majesty, the goodness and greatness which Israel had in those day. Because whoever returns from being a gentile due to the vanities of the world is not part of those considered righteous converts. However, during the days of David and Shlomo there were still many converts in front of Hedyotot. (ordinary people) Then  the Great Bet Din would be concerned and would not turn them away after they immersed. However we do not come close to these converts until we see their lot.

16. Since we see that Shlomo converted many women and married them. Also Shimshon converted them and married them.  And we know that these [converts] returned out of ulterior motives. They were not converted through a Bet Din therefore the Tanach considers them gentiles and that they are still forbidden. Additionally, their end demonstrates what they really believed when they converted since they worshiped idols and built for themselves alters. the Tanach considers it that he (Shlomo) built them as it says "then Shlomo built an alter."

17. A convert who was not checked after or was not informed of the mitzvot and their associated punishments yet he circumcised and immersed  in front of three ordinary people. He is still considered a convert. Even if it is subsequently clarified that he converted out of ulterior motives since he was circumcised and immersed he is no longer considered a gentile, however we still suspect him until his righteousness is proven. Even if he went back and worshipped idols he is considered as a rebellious Jew who performs idolatry whose marriage is considered a marriage. And it is a Mitzvah to return his lost articles since he immersed and is now part of Israel. Therefore Shimshon and Shlomo kept their wives even though their true [idolatrous] attitude was uncovered.

18. Therefore Our Rabbis of Blessed memory have said  "converts are worse for Israel than soars" since most of them return for a reason and then they cause Israel to stray. It is difficult to get rid of them once they have immersed. Just look what happened in the desert with the Golden Calf and in the "tombs of lust"  and so it is with most of the trials that the Asafsuf were a part of them.

Ch. 14 Hal 1.  How do we accept converts? When someone who is a gentile comes to convert then he is checked after and no ulterior motive was found. They should say to him "what have you seen that caused you to come and convert? Do you not know that during these days Jews are lowly and pushed around, wanderers and trampled on? And that tribulations are brought on them? If he says "I know and it does not matter" he is immediately accepted.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  Muman soo we are to assume any person wanting to convert is part of or likely to be from the "Eruv Rav"?  This seems (from what you posted especially) to be more of a Kabbalistic/ perhaps Midrashic concept. Also Doesnt Rebbe Nachman MiBreslov teach in one of his lessons in Likutei Moharan  that G-D's name is magnified and made great especially when either their are converts made or Baale Teshuva Jews come closer to the Torah.

[muman613]

  Muman soo we are to assume any person wanting to convert is part of or likely to be from the "Eruv Rav"?  This seems (from what you posted especially) to be more of a Kabbalistic/ perhaps Midrashic concept. Also Doesnt Rebbe Nachman MiBreslov teach in one of his lessons in Likutei Moharan  that G-D's name is magnified and made great especially when either their are converts made or Baale Teshuva Jews come closer to the Torah.

Indeed, as the article I posted above, there are pros and cons even according to the Medrash and Talmud. I believe that in general we should be open to converts, if they convert sincerely. As it is commanded of us to "Love the Convert".

But I am all for making sure that the prospective convert is doing it out of the right reasons. I deal with people who want to convert all the time and I am supportive of their efforts. But I also don't want to create converts who revert to questionable beliefs and teachings concerning Judaism (mixing in foreign theology with Jewish belief).

I am not against converts at all, but I just wanted to bring the reason (according to my understanding) that we should not rush to convert people to Judaism otherwise we may face negative judgement for their transgressions.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

But I also don't want to create converts who revert to questionable beliefs and teachings concerning Judaism (mixing in foreign theology with Jewish belief).

I am not against converts at all, but I just wanted to bring the reason (according to my understanding) that we should not rush to convert people to Judaism otherwise we may face negative judgement for their transgressions.

 We have a lot of that as it is now. And we are not responsible for the actions of converts. I hope to find and post the source for this some time later.

[muman613]

We have a lot of that as it is now. And we are not responsible for the actions of converts. I hope to find and post the source for this some time later.

You are right that we are not expressly held accountable for converts, but we are held accountable for the entire Jewish people. There is collective judgement on all of us, just as there is individual judgement on each of us. If we bring in low-quality converts we are diluting the entire people.

[muman613]

http://www.torah.org/learning/yehoshua-reflections/ch6no7.html
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(6:18) - Additional Thoughts on Collective Responsibility

"But you should guard the ban lest you destroy yourselves by violating it through which you will condemn the Jewish camp and ruin it."

Radak comments on the repetitive nature of this verse and explains that it includes a stern warning regarding collective responsibility. Every Jewish person was obligated to secure that no one violate the ban. They were forewarned that even the slightest violation by one person would yield devastating results. Why was this collective responsibility treated so severely? Should masses of righteous people suffer because of the frivolity of a few misdirected sinners?

It seems that the Jewish people were taught here an important lesson about Eretz Yisroel. Moshe Rabbeinu warned the people time and time again against the influence of idolatry. The Torah states: "If you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land all who will remain will be pegs in your eyes and thorns in your sides" (Bamidbar 33:55).

The task of ridding Eretz Yisroel of idolatry was all-encompassing. Idolatry's influence was so poisonous and contagious that any trace of it threatened the spiritual fiber of the entire Jewish nation.

This lesson was clearly expressed through the spoils of Yericho. We have learned earlier that the total destruction of Yericho served as a tribute to Hashem. Yericho was treated as an idolatrous city and, bar a few items preserved for the Sanctuary, the city and all therein was totally devastated. A strict ban was placed upon the remaining spoils because of their association with idolatrous people. Any involvement in or benefit from the city would, in some way, validate its existence and bring back memories of its inhabitants.

The Jewish people were therefore sternly warned against any violation of this ban. Even if one person partook of the spoils, this would associate him and ultimately his surroundings with idolatry. So severe was this threat to the nation's spiritual existence that Hashem held everyone responsible for this with their lives. And indeed when one person did violate the ban the entire Jewish camp was endangered and suffered serious losses. This severe response undoubtedly drove this message home and reminded the people of the dangers of even slight influences of idolatry.

From this point onward the Jewish people would be motivated to do their utmost to preserve their spirituality thereby securing their physical existence in the land of Hashem.

With so many winds blowing across the land it is so important to maintain this perspective. Eretz Yisroel is a land of spirituality and does not tolerate foreign influences. We must do our utmost to rid the land of such influence and realize that potential threat to our spirituality is, by definition, a serious threat to our physical existence in the land, as well.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Okay so Sunday, J Witnesses showed up at my house for the second time, I told them that I follow Judaism and I would not talk about Yeshua. They were very nice people, and we had a nice long talk, but during our conversation they called me Jewish a couple times. I did not feel like trying to explain to them what a Noachide was, so I did not say anything. Is that a sin?

[muman613]

The Lubavitcher Rebbe discusses conversion and Moshiach: