The Gaza War - Why Are The Rabbis Silent?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

[muman613]

My Rabbi is not silent. When I spoke with him the other day he clearly said that Halacha is to never give an inch of Holy Land. He says this to me knowing I am right wing to begin with. He is giving a class in a few weeks when he will teach this to the class...

[muman613]

In our discussion we brought up the famous Gemara which is expressed in Rambams Halacha 23 in Mishne Torah, volume Zemamin (Shabbat)


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/935201/jewish/Chapter-Two.htm

Halacha 23
[The following rules apply] when gentiles lay siege to Jewish cities:89 If their intent was financial gain, the Sabbath laws should not be violated because of them, nor are we allowed to wage war against them.90 If a city is located near the border, however, we should march against them with weapons and wage war against them even when they are demanding hay or straw.91

In any location, if the gentiles' intent was Jewish lives, or if they engaged in battle with a city or laid siege to it without stating a specific intention,92 we must wage war against them, and the Sabbath laws should be violated because of them. It is a mitzvah93 for every member of the Jewish people who can come [to their assistance] to go out and aid their brethren who are under siege and save them from the gentiles [although it is the] Sabbath. It is forbidden to wait until Saturday night.

After they have saved their brethren, they may return home with their weapons on the Sabbath, so that a dangerous situation will not be created in the future.94


91) The rationale is that if a border city is conquered, the enemies will have a vantage point from which to conquer the entire land. This concept has relevance beyond the Sabbath laws. For example, the Lubavitcher Rebbe Shelita has explained that these principles are relevant to the territorial disputes between Jews and gentiles in Eretz Yisrael today. Returning any territory to the Arabs would jeopardize the safety of the entire land.

92) War must be waged against them because it is possible that their intent is to kill. Hence, we follow the principle that the Sabbath laws may be violated even where there is merely a question of a threat to life.

93) I.e., an obligation. See Hilchot Rotzeach UShemirat HaNefesh 1:14, which describes the mitzvah (Leviticus 19:16): "Do not stand by idly while your neighbor's life is in danger."
It is told that in the Maccabean revolt, the Greeks once attacked the Jews on the Sabbath. The people, unaware of this law, refused to take up arms in defense and thousands died. Afterwards, the Rabbis publicized this ruling.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Did you listen to the shiur?

[muman613]

Did you listen to the shiur?

I just got home from work.. After I eat I will have a listen/watch...

[muman613]

Very interesting indeed...

I have to admit he has said things which would be controversial if I typed them out (concerning non-Jews)... But I already knew most of this...

Still have 1h20m to go..

[edu]

A side point brought up in the lecture, was the question if Rabbi Shimon is called Bar Yochai outside of the Zohar.
Yoma 26a, Megilla 19a, Midrash Tanaaim to Dvarim chapter 6 verse 9
seems to indicate that sometimes he is.
I am glad that the lecture brings up the point about the status of Gentiles who are presumed to not observe the 7 laws of Noah during the time of peace. I personally know of quite a significant number of Jews who have wrong ideas about the Torah position on this subject.
So far I have heard only about one half hour of the lecture, so I will probably (bli neder) wish to add more comments.

[muman613]

Thus we must admit that Judaism is in a way supremacist.

I did not hear the Rabbi attempt to explain how non-Jews do any good in the world. I believe what he says but I have found that there is such a thing as Kiddush Hashem (Sanctifying Hashems name) when a Jew performs a mitzvah (although in effect it is just a good deed) for a non-Jew.

I also wonder what the Rabbi thinks about a person in the process of converting? Is he or she an enemy until they finish their conversion?

I agree on everything he says concerning dealing with an enemy. But I have questions and reservations about his view that all non-Jews are to be considered enemies...

[muman613]

edu,

I found it somewhat humorous that he kept on saying 'Shimon Bar Yochai' even after explaining that he was really known as 'Shimon Ben Yochai'. I also find it interesting that his name is 'Bar-Chayim'.

Doesn't the word Bar translate as 'Son of' as in 'Bar Mitzvah' a son of mitzvah... So to does the word 'Ben' mean son, as in Moshiach Ben David. The other famous Bar I can think of is 'Bar Chochba' who Rabbi Akivah believed for a time to be Moshiach...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Thus we must admit that Judaism is in a way supremacist.

I did not hear the Rabbi attempt to explain how non-Jews do any good in the world. I believe what he says but I have found that there is such a thing as Kiddush Hashem (Sanctifying Hashems name) when a Jew performs a mitzvah (although in effect it is just a good deed) for a non-Jew.

I also wonder what the Rabbi thinks about a person in the process of converting? Is he or she an enemy until they finish their conversion?

I agree on everything he says concerning dealing with an enemy. But I have questions and reservations about his view that all non-Jews are to be considered enemies...

 What you definitely did not understand what he was saying. He clearly quoted the Rambam who said that when it is NOT a time of war a gentile is not to be harmed, as opposed to when it IS A TIME OF WAR.  Soo how in the world would you then take his statements and say to kill gentiles even those in the process of converting (or even if not). I don't get you.

[muman613]

I heard him say repeatedly that in a time of war even the good gentiles must be killed (See video @ 11:35). The example given was that during the plagues, the G-d fearing Egyptians were the ones who brought their livestock (horses) into the house, and thus there were some Egyptian horses alive when Pharoah wanted to send his armies after the Jews who were fleeing to the Yam Suf. It was said that even the good non-Jews should have been killed, and by doing so the Egyptians would have had no horses with which to pursue the Jews.

He also said several times that if a gentile was drowning (or required saving) that a Jew should not save him. I have heard this before but I don't remember where it comes from...

[muman613]

Apparently this is Halacha from Rambam, as written in Avodah Kochavim:


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/912369/jewish/Chapter-Ten.htm

Halacha 1
We may not draw up a covenant with idolaters which will establish peace between them [and us] and yet allow them to worship idols, as [Deuteronomy 7:2] states: "Do not establish a covenant with them." Rather, they must renounce their [idol] worship or be slain. It is forbidden to have mercy upon them, as [Deuteronomy, ibid.] states: "Do not be gracious to them."

Accordingly, if we see an idolater being swept away or drowning in the river, we should not help him. If we see that his life is in danger, we should not save him. It is, however, forbidden to cause one of them to sink or push him into a pit or the like, since he is not waging war against us.

To whom do the above apply? To gentiles. It is a mitzvah, however, to eradicate Jewish traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the people away from God.


So it is correct... He also did say that we must assume a non-Jew is not a Bnei Noach and thus assume that he is liable to the death penalty...

[muman613]

I cannot find a reference to the idea that we should not assume a Bnei Noach is keeping the commandments, thus he is liable for death. Does anyone know where this idea comes from?

I think I need to listen to this talk again and takes notes...

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Great vid.  Makes an outstanding argument for cleaning out Gaza once and for all.

I agree with him about Gaza, but by his philosophy... if Obama, became a enemy of Israel( which he is). Than the over 50 percent of Zionist in the U.S. should die, including you and I, how would they know that we follow the 7 laws?