What are we fighting for?

[muman613]

What are we fighting for?

Sometimes it seems to me that JTF is confused in its message because some members feel the need to make JTF seem 'extreme' or 'radical' to the mainstream. JTF, according to Chaim, is a law-abiding organization and one which I have no question is a righteous group. Chaim has stressed that we don't want to inspire hatred, incitement to commit violence, and other acts which may cause the 'system' to question whether JTF had any involvement. I think this strategy is a wise one, otherwise I probably would not associate with this organization. As it is some of the people I know consider this group 'extreme' and thus they have many questions about how zealous we are to bring destruction to the arabs in Israel.

While I have studied the speeches and writings of HaRav Meir Kahane for several years and I fully agree with his stated goals I have to say that JTF and Chaim best embody the dream of Rabbi Kahane. I do not hate Arabs except for those involved with killing Jews (which is a great number of them). I am not one who motivates other through hatred but through understanding that we are threatened by an arab enemy when it comes to the Jewish homeland.

I have faith that most Jews with a conscience will come around and see it our way. I believe that Rabbi Kahanes message speaks to us today, and what we need is a personality capable of expressing this vision to the Jews of today. Surely there must be some Jews who can translate this message into a message which will resonate with Jewish youths of this generation and the next. I work with organizations which inculcate Jewish children with the desire to settle the land of Israel, that the Jewish people have an inalienable right to live in the land promised to our forefathers. We must work to bring more Jews youths into the movement while not pushing away some who may not share as zealously the desire to act in a questionable manner.

It pains me that Ron feels the need to attack Jews who do not agree with him on matters of Jewish determination. While I am not currently living in Israel I am a Jew, as my family has been for as far back as records go, and I feel that Hashems promise for a place in Eretz Yisroel speaks to me personally.

My recommendation is that we all attempt to accept each other, even if we disagree. We should attempt to learn why each one of us feels the way we do, without pushing the other by name-calling or other bullying tactics. We are supposed to be on the same side. Hopefully we are not so paranoid about 'self-haters' and 'phony right-wingers' that we fight constantly between ourselves, calling the next one a Shabak agent, the next one a traitor. We should bring facts when we make accusations against others. Speaking derogatorily of others is usually not something we should do, unless there is a real danger... So that danger must be real, and must be exposed, in order to protect Jewish lives.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I agree Muman, If we're to be a force to be reckoned with, and a mass movement, we have to work together. We cannot viciously attack each other, I can understand having fun and calling each other names, but to say things that might upset someone so much that they might leave, is a step backwards in the JTF's movement. We are in a time where Jews and righteous Gentiles need as much help as they can get!

 We may not agree on everything, but we all agree on good conquering evil, and we all know who the good guys are, and who the bad guys are. When the Messiah comes he will straighten out all of our differences. If we live  the way of God's law the best we know how, we will be okay!

 האשם הוא הגדול ביותר!

[Sveta]

I'm sorry if I offended anymore.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

I'm sorry if I offended anymore.

So am I.

It is uncalled for to insult JTF women or anyone that is not evil for that matter. We may have differences of opinion with some Jews in Israel but there is a difference between those we have different tactics with and those who are outright evil like Yossi Sarid of Meretz or the late and unlamented Tommy Lapid or Jews who collaborate with Obama like Rahm Emanuel.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

I don't know who Ron is, but I think the only way for Israel to enjoy any safety is doing exactly what they're accused of to Fraudestinians. And the only way to do that with support is for more horrors to happen to the Jewish people, G-d forbid, unless wee decide to call a spade a spade.

I agree. We shouldn't fight with each other. Insults against our fellow Jews only hurt us and make us fight with each other and bring out the worst of us. I'm sorry if I offended people who are participating in this thread. They know who they are.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Oh someone insulted me on the internet I'll hold a grudge I'm biterrrr

That's a cute cat!

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Why open a thread blaming just one person for any public relations problems we may have? We are an organization of human beings. Human beings often make mistakes and write things that are foolish. There are a number of JTFers who have written things over the years that don't help our public image. To single out just one person is unfair, in my opinion.

Yes, Ron writes things that go too far sometimes. But he also devotes his life to helping the Jewish people and to helping our movement in the land of Israel.

I know that Ron disagrees with me and with other JTFers on many issues. Ron believes that we are not sufficiently right-wing or zealous and that we are too forgiving in our approach to Jews and non-Jews who disagree with us. Does that mean that Ron should not be allowed to participate in our movement at all?

All I ask is that we be considerate toward one another. We will have differences of opinion. We're not robots. But we all want to achieve certain basic goals so it is worthwhile for us to work together despite those differences that inevitably arise when numerous people from varied backgrounds try to work together.

[muman613]

בס''ד

Why open a thread blaming just one person for any public relations problems we may have? We are an organization of human beings. Human beings often make mistakes and write things that are foolish. There are a number of JTFers who have written things over the years that don't help our public image. To single out just one person is unfair, in my opinion.

Yes, Ron writes things that go too far sometimes. But he also devotes his life to helping the Jewish people and to helping our movement in the land of Israel.

I know that Ron disagrees with me and with other JTFers on many issues. Ron believes that we are not sufficiently right-wing or zealous and that we are too forgiving in our approach to Jews and non-Jews who disagree with us. Does that mean that Ron should not be allowed to participate in our movement at all?

All I ask is that we be considerate toward one another. We will have differences of opinion. We're not robots. But we all want to achieve certain basic goals so it is worthwhile for us to work together despite those differences that inevitably arise when numerous people from varied backgrounds try to work together.

Chaim,

I did not intend to say that Ron is the only one who is a problem. I am trying to address a lot if infighting which seems to continue. I do not seek to silence Ron in any way, and I try at every chance to listen to what he says and try to understand where he is coming from.

I just want it to be known that just because I am one who wants to bring more Jews together than I cause to seperate doesn't mean I don't have strong feelings that Israel needs to act strongly against our enemies. I sincerely want to see a strong Israel repel the muslim arab invaders. The main issue is trying to get our co-religionists to come along and understand what it is we understand.

[briann]

I am siding with Muman here...  I just want whats best for the movement.. but there are a couple members here who's attacks have been beyond the pale... and have been very destructive to the forum....  but 99% of us coexist quite well... and continue to do so.... 

For those couple of members... I hope they continue to support Israel... but I wish they would just bite their lip a bit when it comes to attacking some of our greatest members here.

[muman613]

There is someone more right wing then us? Where is this Ron, and how do I adore him? Personal insults are boring though.

He's not more 'right wing'.... More something else...

[muman613]

If you mean what I think you mean, then he better not show up or I'll be worse than mean, if you know what I...

Listen, I am one who doesn't want to spread Lashon Hara. Ron and I have had our differences.. I thought we were on good terms until recently... I want to hear from him to know what he thinks. Before that I will not say anything more about the history... This thread was started in order to reduce intra-member conflicts... I respect Ron and believe he does great work for the forum. I do not suggest anything other than the fact that our approaches to the solution to our problems differ in an obvious way. LKZ you may find his approach correct... I am just expressing my opinion...

[muman613]

^what you wrote. What I understand: someone name Ron and I bicker lately. I don't want to. He believes something I don't.

What are you talking about??

LKZ,

I am trying to gracefully avoid having to retell, in public, the history of the issues which cause friction between myself and others. And in deference to Chaims request I think I should just let this go for this evening.

As Chaim said in his message, Ron is a zealot who takes a 'hard line' on several issues. Maybe in some respects I am more moderate because I do not have his experience. But I also think that we all should be able to express our opinions without someone getting too riled up about them. Maybe you can do a search in the forum archives for messages which will reveal what I am talking about. I just do not want to speak lashon hara about a man who does deserve a lot of respect around here, who mainly contributes to the Hebrew forum.

[muman613]

Too lazy. Guessing game? Kill Arabs? Ban islam? Kill traitors? It's not lashon hara if you state state your opinion twice. I'll moderate, and eventually pick sides, but people are irrelevant to me, even events, only ideas I care for.

LKZ, please tell me you are going out on a limb saying these things. I know you better. 'people are irrelevant to me'.... That is not the most 'social' thing to say to others. People, especially Jewish people to other Jews, are very important to each other. Hashem made it so that we are social beings and we need each other to live and to be happy. I just hope you said that to be funny..

[muman613]

I love people I guess. Most I've known have been horrible to me in an endless list of ways, so I don't trust anyone ever. I don't hold grudges though, but I don't try to gain friends or respect from anyone. I just want to know what is right, and then to do it. This is my goal, people and anything else that distracts me from it be damned. I like you though. You defended me when everyone else called me a troll, which made me not banned, then which got me into Judaism, then which made me go to Israel, then which made me meet a Jewish friend, then he took me to a synagogue, then I got a Jewish name. So basically, you're the reason I was called what I'm now called, so I respect you, but forgive me for not trying to earn your respect.

LKZ,

Thank you for your kind words. I too felt like you at a point in my life. I don't have many personal friends. In the past I had friends who used me for one thing or another. But I never will give up on humanity. My spiritual pursuit in Judaism has shown me that humanity is capable of both much evil but it is also capable of much good. We often overlook the good and see only the bad. We have been watching many WWII and Shoah videos in my house lately and some of my friends have gotten depressed about it. I don't allow those videos to make me depressed because while it is clear that there can be very much evil in the world, that there is also the capability or potential for much good.

Jewish history is a constant up and down ride. A person with true faith in Hashem sticks with him through thick and thin. And faith in Hashem requires in some respect some faith in his creation also.

[USAReturn2GodNow1776]

Ron is really cool. And I say this as someone who is mostly Germanic.

[USAReturn2GodNow1776]

How is Germany relevant? Does he want Germans killed? I'm pretty sure G-d has dibs.

He has gone on tirades against Germanics, which includes many, many Americans. I am American. I couldn't care less about Germany.

[cjd]

I am siding with Muman here...  I just want whats best for the movement.. but there are a couple members here who's attacks have been beyond the pale... and have been very destructive to the forum....  but 99% of us coexist quite well... and continue to do so.... 

For those couple of members... I hope they continue to support Israel... but I wish they would just bite their lip a bit when it comes to attacking some of our greatest members here.

Yes, We have had quite a few good  members bite their lip but the problem is they also moved on to greener pastures... People are not going to come to a forum that berates them day after day and sit around with their mouth shut unless they are simply stupid or retarded... At least with Ron he puts his cards on the table and takes the heat with little complaining or apologizing when people go back at him... The rabble rousing but apologetic phony peacemaker approach that some other members use here on the forum really makes me sick... The membership that has been driven away by this sort of approach was much of the old QPTV people that in my opinion truly supported JTF in a bricks and mortar sort of way... In my opinion although JTF is  primarily a Jewish organization the large tent approach we had in the early days seemed to be a far better template for building a large scale religious / political movement than what some members are trying to accomplish now.

[AsheDina]

בס''ד

Why open a thread blaming just one person for any public relations problems we may have? We are an organization of human beings. Human beings often make mistakes and write things that are foolish. There are a number of JTFers who have written things over the years that don't help our public image. To single out just one person is unfair, in my opinion.

Yes, Ron writes things that go too far sometimes. But he also devotes his life to helping the Jewish people and to helping our movement in the land of Israel.

I know that Ron disagrees with me and with other JTFers on many issues. Ron believes that we are not sufficiently right-wing or zealous and that we are too forgiving in our approach to Jews and non-Jews who disagree with us. Does that mean that Ron should not be allowed to participate in our movement at all?

All I ask is that we be considerate toward one another. We will have differences of opinion. We're not robots. But we all want to achieve certain basic goals so it is worthwhile for us to work together despite those differences that inevitably arise when numerous people from varied backgrounds try to work together.

I was not nice to Ron a couple years ago and I feel really bad about this, now.  But, Ron is right.  And he hates America.  I do not like America, either anymore.  And I have been a most patriotic individual.

I have a man on my own website who believes that America is the most evil nation in the world.  People hate his guts and he does not care.  Sometimes, its hard for me, BUT, he ALWAYS tells the truth which is why I do not EVER ban him, plus the fact that he ALWAYS takes up for Israel and the Jewish people--ALWAYS.

He is a good example of how the world sees "Satan America" as he puts it..

Why should Ron 'like' America OR Americans??  We have a MUSLIM in the WH who wants Israel's destruction.
We SHOULD be in sackcloth and ashes.

I must stand with Ron and Chaim on this one.
Even though  I am not here all that much.

[angryChineseKahanist]

 
Rha-Rawwwwwwwww!

[AsheDina]

To this mysterious Ron, why do you hate America? Do you hate England more?

England is horrible, too.
But, America is just filth, now.
Filth.

We should be in sack cloth and ashes.

America has a MUSLIM in charge who HATES Israel, how can you expect Ron Ben Michel to 'like' America??  This same piece of TRASH (Obama) said that Israel should give up MORE land (67 borders)
Would YOU like America if YOU were Israeli?

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

England is horrible, too.
But, America is just filth, now.
Filth.

We should be in sack cloth and ashes.

America has a MUSLIM in charge who HATES Israel, how can you expect Ron Ben Michel to 'like' America??  This same piece of TRASH (Obama) said that Israel should give up MORE land (67 borders)
Would YOU like America if YOU were Israeli?

By this mentality, we should just give up! This only lowers morale. Yes, America is sick, we are being duped and have been slowly taking over by communists. A majority of Americans do not agree with the administration, and others are flat out sleeping! There is no need to bash all Americans, When push comes to shove Americans will do the right thing!

[AsheDina]

Who else is there to like?

Israel.
The Serb people.
Palauans

[AsheDina]

Any groups of Americans or Canadians you support?

The first two of course. I have never heard of Palau until I just googled it, and that's coming from a history and geography lover. Why them?

I have met many Palauans, really super sweet people. Plus it is a SANE little island.  Very pretty, too.
Americans, yeah, Minutemen, WW2 vets, Korean Vets. Senior citizens.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Many of those islands always vote with Israel and the US in the UN. Israel I think was one of first countries to establish diplomatic relations with them.