"I am afraid that women appreciate cruelty, downright cruelty

[Every Jew AK47]

  What? Your last post does not make sense. About guns, then why do you live in America. Isn't Obama making the gun laws even more stricter? You can always live in Israel especially the "territories" and get a gun. Not only that you can join the army and carry a big gun all the time.
  You can stand up all you like. In the galut their still would not be any real chance for survival. You think if something really goes down you and even all the Jews in America would be able to do anything?

 Lets just say the truth, its comfortable.

Tag Mehir, this is much more complicated than can be summarized in a single paragraph on a web forum thread.   

First of all, Obama hasn't done anything but pull out some big talk from his stinking b*tthole.   Everything he does must pass through Congress and there is a great resistance to it.   Yes, Obama Hussein is doing everything he can do destroy the rights of American people.  But, somehow I think he will fail in his endeavors.  Second, let's  be a bit more realistic.  Even if Obama passes an AWB banning semi auto rifles, Americans will still have more gun rights than a majority of Israeli citizens have.  A majority of Israeli citizens are not allowed to even own a gun.  In order to own a gun you have to go through BS psychological exams and are limited to only one handgun and a limited amount of ammo.  If Obama Hussein passes an AWB, he will meet fierce resistance from many States,  who will refuse to enforce his unconstitutional laws.    If Obama Hussein passes the AWB, I may have second thoughts about everything, but Israel still is far from meeting my qualifications.    Also, what would I do with the guns/ammo I have?  The Torah says every Jew must be armed, but the Government of Israel will demand I have it sold off or turned in before I am allowed entrance into Israel.  The day Israel allows me to bring my guns and ammo and live as a free citizen, rather than a inferior subject of the Knesset, is a day I will seriously consider making Aliyah.

I can join the IDF and carry a gun.  Why do I have to be a soldier man to have the G-d given /Torah given right to have a gun?  Heinrich Himmler said the same thing, if you need a gun go join the SS or SA, you should be in the military.  I don't want to live in a police state where only the military is armed.   Why do I have to give up my job, freedom and life and be reduced as a servant to a government for which I have little respect .  No, I am not fond of any government that orders its soldiers to throw Jewish people out of their homes and defends Muslims and persecutes Jews.   No, I don't believe in fighting wars where I must put my own brothers lives on the line to help protect the lives of Arab "civilians" (who are also terrorists), which is how Israel fights most of its wars.  Actually, I'd rather not join the Tzahal as of now.   And, if they do command me to throw Jewish settlers out of their homes at one point, I will refuse the order and spend the rest of my life in prison.  That will be my great reward for Aliyah!  Spending the next of my life in prison with Arab criminals. 

Must I be forced to live in a Settler territory surrounded by large numbers of Arabs who have even more guns than the Jews, just so I can own a gun?  And if I use my gun, you can be sure I would suffer dearly in Israeli courts which always favor Arabs over Jews in any legislation.   In the USA, if I shoot an intruder in self-defense, more likely than not, if it was a legitimate shoot, I will be a free man, not likely in Israel.  I have heard stories of Jews going to prison for defending their farms against Bedouin thieves.  Considering, I am in the IT industry, living in a far settler outpost is also not likely if I want to put food in my mouth.

I also simply cannot live in a country that has so many Arabs and Muslims and be told I am not trusted with a gun to defend myself.  Just the whole concept really pisses me off!



I said my beliefs are controversial and I apologize for those I offended or who think I am wrong.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  Soo to have a gun you forfeit your right, no obligation to be in Eress Yisrael? You think your gun in the end will protect you in the U.S.A. ? Your logic does not make sense. Eress Yisrael comes with sacrifice. And you wont spend the rest of your life in jail for refusing orders. Get real. America or anywhere else in the galut is being terminated for the Jewish nation. Leave in time or their wont be a time to leave. In 1930's it also seemed going to Israel was not safe, surrounded by all those Arabs, gov. (British) in charge and not giving rights. While in Europe it was great. We had the Yeshivot and everything seemed great. Until. Yepp until THAT happened. Also in America their is greater danger and problems then in Israel- loss of Jewish identity and assimilation. At least in Israel the Jewish and especially the religious population is growing. Both from birth-rate and in the # of Jews coming back to Torah-Judaism.

[Every Jew AK47]

  Soo to have a gun you forfeit your right, no obligation to be in Eress Yisrael? You think your gun in the end will protect you in the U.S.A. ? Your logic does not make sense. Eress Yisrael comes with sacrifice. And you wont spend the rest of your life in jail for refusing orders. Get real. America or anywhere else in the galut is being terminated for the Jewish nation. Leave in time or their wont be a time to leave. In 1930's it also seemed going to Israel was not safe, surrounded by all those Arabs, gov. (British) in charge and not giving rights. While in Europe it was great. We had the Yeshivot and everything seemed great. Until. Yepp until THAT happened. Also in America their is greater danger and problems then in Israel- loss of Jewish identity and assimilation. At least in Israel the Jewish and especially the religious population is growing. Both from birth-rate and in the # of Jews coming back to Torah-Judaism.

Sadly Tag Mehir, back in the early days, the Jews wanted to have a homeland and would fight for it.  Today, Israel is ruled by self-hating Jews who are power hungry and care very little for their own people.  Today, we have Jews who are giving away precious land to Arabs to appease the European nations who hate the Jewish people. 

Why is Israel so safe for Jews?  More Jews have been murdered in Israel than anywhere in the world in the last 20-30 years.  France, another nation with a lot of Muslims and people have limited gun rights (no Jews in France own guns), is another place where Jews have been targeted and murdered.  These murders could have been prevented if Israel had a government that sought to empower and protect its people rather than protect and empower its enemies to appease their external masters.

I think we are living under the illusion that Israel is truly a nation.  As of now, it seems liek a puppet state for the European and Liberal American governments.  If Israel is a nation it would have already nuked Iran and have wiped out all the Palestinians in Shomron and Yehudah.  Sadly, the nation of Israel today is run by traitors and in many ways I feel like the situation is horribly dire.

How safe will all those Jews congregated in such a small piece of land be with a nuclear-armed Iran who has 20 times as much land and has leaders who think they go to heaven and get lots of virgins for killing Jews?

SOmehow Israel is very safe, but USA or other countries are so dangerous.   I'm afraid the next genocide of Jews may happen in Israel.  What is to stop a corrupt and evil Israeli government from mass murdering or arresting large numbers of people who they think threaten their own power?   Do you know why America has a 2nd Amendment?  That is because we fear our government from tyranny.  Israel doesn't have a 2nd Amendment.  Why is Israeli government impervious to tyranny??  Considering Jews were beaten, murdered, arrested and thrown out of their homes to give the land to Muslims, I think the Israeli government already has proven it can be quite tyrannical!

I know what I say is probably resented here and I apologize.  If people feel the need to kick me or shut me up that is fine.  I don't have a rosy outlook for Israel as of now.. 

I do know in the end, when Moshiach comes (and hopefully long before), that all this crap will be straightened out and that there will be no more Muslims praying on the Temple Mount in Yerushalayim and that ugly blue dome that contaminates the Yerushalayim skyline will be bulldozed and replaced with a memorial for all the Jewish victims murdered by Muslims and Europeans (i.e. by Germans, Austrians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, English, etc) .


Proving Israel is Not Safe For Jews:


THis should have never happened!!!  Heavily armed Arabs, Disarmed Jews!!!  Of course Yeshiva boys are not in the military, no guns for them!

[בַּחַמַל]

EveryJewa44 -

You have very valid complaints, and I wouldn't want you kicked or censored at all because what you said comes from your heart.

For those who want to quote the Rebbe who said that Israel was the safest nation on the earth and that Jews should move there - that was in the early 90s.

I've never brought this up before, but the Rebbe answered many letters written to him by congregants in other States, in requesting advice whether they should move to Israel, the Rebbe stated that if their absence from their congregation would diminish it, they should not move.

In fact, the Rebbe referenced several diminished South African congregations, where leaders of these congregations left to Israel selfishly, abandoning their own congregations to their detriment.

And what do we have today as a result of all of this?  Aliyah "organizations" preying upon the young idealists, profiting from their emigration.  People being treated like pieces of meat, who are commodities to be absorbed into Israel when it is convenient to do so to displace other troublesome populations.

The fact is, the Chutz La'Aretz Jews are being treated like pawns.  Support Israel!  Buy our exports! Send us money!  BUT DON'T TELL US NOT TO VOTE FOR SHAS OR MAFDAL!  Quite frankly, I don't like the salty Israeli pickles nor the stale sunflower seeds.  What I like is Israeli land.  Those of us who are stuck in Chutz La'aretz must take a good look at what is actually being accomplished by our "support".  We financed the settler movement, yet the Mo'etzet Pesha is surreptitiously undermining the settlements in order to obtain a little temporary wealth.  So besides the No'ar Ha'givaot, which is the only worthwhile charity in Israel, who are we actually supporting?  Why are we supporting the opponents of the hilltop youth?

The reason why Ben Ari and Marzel were able to get away with their betrayal is because they know that no matter what they do, Jews in Chutz La'aretz who dare criticize the charity establishments tired mantra that we must "support Israel" will be immediately silenced and thay they will continue to receive funding no matter what.

If Israel continues to elect parties like Mafdal, then we must take a serious look at our  financial support and consider donating to more worthwhile LOCAL causes.  Achim, the shape of North American Jewry doesn't look all that great either, in case you didn't know.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

First of all, this is the type of thread that scares away women members. Why in the world would we post something so insulting to women? If not for righteous women, Chazal teach us, we would never have been liberated from slavery in Egypt. Heroic Hebrew midwives risked their lives by refusing Pharoah's order to murder all male Hebrew babies. And when the Hebrew men had decided to not have children any more because they did not want to bring children into the cruel world of slavery, it was the Hebrew women who convinced them that they had to continue to have children. And when the Hebrew men sinned with the Golden Calf, the Hebrew women did not participate in that terrible sin. And when the Hebrew men listened to the spies who told them not to conquer the land of Israel because it was "impractical" and "unrealistic", the Hebrew women trusted Hashem and wanted to go forward with the conquest.

As far as this defeatist talk about not making aliyah, this is why there was a physical holocaust in Europe and a spiritual holocaust in the United States. Making aliyah is not an option, it is a mitzvah (commandment). The galut (exile) is a punishment. You think conditions are bad in Israel today? Israel today is paradise compared to what it was 100 years ago when the chalutzim (pioneers) settled the land. There is no future for Jews outside of Israel.

What is the Torah view?

לעולם ידור אדם בארץ ישראל אפילו בעיר שרובה עובדי כוכבים, ואל ידור בחו"ל ואפילו בעיר שרובה ישראל , שכל הדר בארץ ישראל - דומה כמי שיש לו אלוה, וכל הדר בחוצה לארץ - דומה כמי שאין לו אלוה, שנא' (ויקרא כה): "לתת לכם את ארץ כנען - להיות לכם לאלהים". וכל שאינו דר בארץ אין לו אלוה?! אלא לומר לך: כל הדר בחו"ל - כאילו עובד עבודת כוכבים; וכן בדוד הוא אומר: (שמואל א, כו) "כי גרשוני היום מהסתפח בנחלת ה' לאמר לך עבוד אלהים אחרים", וכי מי אמר לו לדוד לך עבוד אלהים אחרים? אלא לומר לך: כל הדר בחו"ל - כאילו עובד עבודת כוכבים. (מסכת כתובות דף קי ע"ב)

Translation:

A Jew must always live in the land of Israel even in a city where the majority are idolators, and not live outside of the land even in a city where the majority are Jews, because all who live in the land of Israel are like one who has a G-d, and all who live outside of the land are like one who has no G-d, as it is written in Vayikra 25 [Leviticus in the Torah]: "To give you the land of Canaan, to be for you a G-d". And all who do not live in the land have no G-d? It is to say: all who live outside of the land, it is as if they worship idols as it is written in Samuel 1:26:"For they have expelled me today from being part of the inheritance of G-d to say, 'Go worship other gods'"....(Masechet Ktuvot 100:72)

Explanation:

1. In other words, Torah Judaism teaches us that living in Israel even in a city where the majority of inhabitants are idol-worshippers is preferable to living outside of the land even in a city where the majority are Jews. So Judea and Samaria (which is 80% Arab Nazis versus 20% Jews) is far preferable to Boro Park or Kew Gardens Hills or Monsey where 90% of the residents are Orthodox Jews.

2. A Jew who lives outside of Israel is like a Jew with no G-d and an idol-worshipper. A Jew who lives in Israel is like a Jew with a G-d.

Can someone live in Israel and still be an evil traitor? Of course. Traitors are not living there for the right reason. But for Jews who believe, there is no alternative to living in Israel now that we are able to do so.

[muman613]

I was going to write something similar to what you said concerning the commandment to live in the land, without excuses... But you gave a great explanation.

[בַּחַמַל]

And when the Hebrew men had decided to not have children any more because they did not want to bring children into the cruel world of slavery, it was the Hebrew women who convinced them that they had to continue to have children.

But it was also Hebrew women who assisted Pharaoh with male infanticide:

"Because the midwives feared G-D, he gave them great families of their own"
Exodus 1:21

The Rashbam and Tur explain:  The literal words in the Pasuk are "And he made them houses".  Pharaoh built government-funded birth clinics in order to circumvent the midwives...  Initially, one would think that he forced the women to visit those clinics.  But if he could not force the women to throw their boys into the river, how did he force the women to give birth in his clinics?

The answer is simple:  Pharaoh built the first Planned-Parenthood in history.  Pharaoh lured Jewish women away from traditional childbirth and into the 'clinics', just as women today are lured into Planned Parenthood, and only when he was able to gain a substantial amount of patients was he able to strictly enforce male infanticide, because of most of the misled women in a given Egyptian neighborhood were visiting this clinic, a lone righteous Jewish women giving birth at home would be easily detected by the Egyptian authorities.

So women were not all 'peaches and roses' as we are lead to believe.

Regarding living inside Israel, if a well-known Rabbi from a congregation would cause detriment to his congregation by moving to Israel (As I have pointed out has happened many times before in the past), he most certainly should not do so.  The reason is obvious, and I should also point out that his caused the dissolution of many communities as well.  If you want me to post the letters from Igrot Kodesh, I will gladly do so.  It is blind to naïvely quote Halacha from the Talmud.  Open up a Shulchan Aruch and read the inyanim regarding living in Eretz Yisrael there and you will see that the Halacha is not black and white as you would have everybody believe.

Also, you translated the page number in the Talmud wrong.  It's not 100:72, but Kuf Yud Amud Bet - 110:b not Ayin Bet.  Keep in mind that those who wrote the Talmud lived outside of Eretz Yisrael because they were forced to.  The Rebbe declared that all Yidden in the post-holocaust generation are considered Tinok Shenishba, a concept in the Gemara which refers to a captured toddler.  If someone cannot move to Israel for whatever reason, he is obviously not sinning in any way.

You also neglected to quote the text that immediately follows it on 111:a

"R. Zera was evading Rab Judah because he desired to go up to the Land of Israel while Rab Judah had expressed [the following view:] Whoever goes up from Babylon to the Land of Israel transgresses a positive commandment, for it is said in Scripture, They shall be carried to Babylon, and there shall they be, until the day that I remember them, saith the Lord."

Does this mean that a Jew who lives in Babylon is forbidden from leaving Babylon?  So Iraqi Jews and such were forbidden from making Aliyah?

[Every Jew AK47]

I'm not very knowledgeable in Talmud as others here, although I am captivated by what Bachamal has wrote and can say with my surface knowledge on the Judaic laws it sounds very reasonable to me.

Even though I respect Chaim what you are saying, I find some challenges in what you wrote.  Considering, you are quoting from Vayikra in Torah, wouldn't have the Prophet Yirmeyahu have also been classified as an idol worshiper for telling the Israelites that they must leave Israel to go into captivity in Babylon?   I mean it was a time when Israel was being punished and the Chaldeans came to bring devastation and G-d actually commanded the Israelites to stay during this period.  I believe Bachamal basically answered my question in his post.

I really don't know how to convey myself in through a deeply religious perspective, but through a practical perspective I do not believe making Aliyah is the best option for me, although it may be a good option for other Jews who can actually make a difference in there right now. 

Here is a rhetorical question I can impose on this subject:
Would it please G-d more to live in Israel so you can have a family and children and then watch then all be slaughtered by Arab Nazis, because the government of idol worshipers said you are not allowed to have any means to defend yourself?  Or, would it please G-d more for you to live in Galut to be able to empower their race in a country they have more freedom, the right to worship Hashem, unopposed, and can train and arm their family in defense?  As well, with the money you generate overseas, you can eventually use it to purchase property in Israel, as well as having the extra income will give you more power to fund and support politicians or organizations that you feel will help Israel.  Remember, this is the 21st century, everything is a matter of money!  Basically, if you can do more good in Galut for Eretz Yisrael than you can do in Eretz Yisrael itself, then I feel it is more noble to live in Galut.  That is my belief, anyhow.  The practical approach..

What happened in Nazi Germany can happen everywhere, including Israel.  As a matter of fact, if you read history, some of the worst holocausts against the Jewish people, almost as bad or worse than what happened in Europe, occurred in Israel, itself.  The massacre of the Jews by the Romans, Chaldeans, Assyrians all results in a massive genocide against a majority of the Jewish population.  So, living in Eretz Yisrael doesn't always mean you are free from the risk of genocide. 

How am I worshiping an idol by supporting Israel abroad?   That is a bold accusation as well, as Hashem destroys idol worshipers.  I suppose the Jew who davens and lives a frum lifestyle everyday is more cursed than the Jew who attends gay pride parades in their g-string in Tel Aviv?

The strange thing I notice is that many who say it is wrong to live in Galut, live in Galut.

Bachamal, are you currently in Israel?  Just curious.

[CamKrist]

Similar subject was being discussed at yahoo answers last week. I can post the link if needed.

[muman613]

But it was also Hebrew women who assisted Pharaoh with male infanticide:

"Because the midwives feared G-D, he gave them great families of their own"
Exodus 1:21

The Rashbam and Tur explain:  The literal words in the Pasuk are "And he made them houses".  Pharaoh built government-funded birth clinics in order to circumvent the midwives...  Initially, one would think that he forced the women to visit those clinics.  But if he could not force the women to throw their boys into the river, how did he force the women to give birth in his clinics?

The answer is simple:  Pharaoh built the first Planned-Parenthood in history.  Pharaoh lured Jewish women away from traditional childbirth and into the 'clinics', just as women today are lured into Planned Parenthood, and only when he was able to gain a substantial amount of patients was he able to strictly enforce male infanticide, because of most of the misled women in a given Egyptian neighborhood were visiting this clinic, a lone righteous Jewish women giving birth at home would be easily detected by the Egyptian authorities.

So women were not all 'peaches and roses' as we are lead to believe.

Regarding living inside Israel, if a well-known Rabbi from a congregation would cause detriment to his congregation by moving to Israel (As I have pointed out has happened many times before in the past), he most certainly should not do so.  The reason is obvious, and I should also point out that his caused the dissolution of many communities as well.  If you want me to post the letters from Igrot Kodesh, I will gladly do so.  It is blind to naïvely quote Halacha from the Talmud.  Open up a Shulchan Aruch and read the inyanim regarding living in Eretz Yisrael there and you will see that the Halacha is not black and white as you would have everybody believe.

Also, you translated the page number in the Talmud wrong.  It's not 100:72, but Kuf Yud Amud Bet - 110:b not Ayin Bet.  Keep in mind that those who wrote the Talmud lived outside of Eretz Yisrael because they were forced to.  The Rebbe declared that all Yidden in the post-holocaust generation are considered Tinok Shenishba, a concept in the Gemara which refers to a captured toddler.  If someone cannot move to Israel for whatever reason, he is obviously not sinning in any way.

You also neglected to quote the text that immediately follows it on 111:a

"R. Zera was evading Rab Judah because he desired to go up to the Land of Israel while Rab Judah had expressed [the following view:] Whoever goes up from Babylon to the Land of Israel transgresses a positive commandment, for it is said in Scripture, They shall be carried to Babylon, and there shall they be, until the day that I remember them, saith the Lord."

Does this mean that a Jew who lives in Babylon is forbidden from leaving Babylon?  So Iraqi Jews and such were forbidden from making Aliyah?

There are many sages who disagree with that interpretation that the midwives performed any infanticide. You must realize who Shifra and Pooah were, they were Miriam and Joceved themselves.

This explains much of this understanding:

http://www.torah.org/learning/women/class45.html

SHIFRAH AND PUAH / MIRIAM AND JOCHEBED

(The following essay has been adapted from a lecture by Mrs. Leah Kohn)

The story of Shifrah and Puah takes place during the time of the enslavement of the Jewish people by Pharoah in Egypt. The Torah text tells us, "The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the first was Shifrah and the name of the second was Puah" 'When you deliver the Hebrew women, and you see them on the birthstool; if it is a son, you are to kill him, and if it is a daughter, she shall live (Exodus 1:15-17).'" Pharoah contrived this blatant - if secret - scheme upon failing to stop the growth of the Jewish people through backbreaking labor. He assumed that the Jewish midwives would follow his orders under threat of death. However, he did not reckon with their spiritual greatness and commitment to God and the Jewish Nation.

Our Sages tell us that the midwives Shifrah and Puah were none other than Jochebed and Miriam, the mother and sister of the yet to be born Moses. Rashi (R' Shlomo Yitzchaki, 1040-1105, the preeminent Torah commentator) tells us that the name Shifra comes from a Hebrew root that means, "the capacity to make something better, or to improve its quality." In keeping with this characteristic, and contrary to Pharoah's orders, Shifrah did everything she could to assist the Jewish women in childbirth and to care for their infants after delivery. The name Puah, comes from a Hebrew root that implies a particular gift of speech. Rashi comments that Puah was able to soothe a crying baby to sleep with her special way of talking. Shifrah and Puah's response to Pharoah's ordination is surprising. We might have expected them to either:

1) Outright refuse to participate with Pharoah, in keeping with the Torah mandate that a Jew who is ordered to kill another Jew under threat of his own death, should sacrifice his/her own life first, or...
2) Comply with his orders out of fear for their own lives.

Shifrah and Puah were on a very high spiritual level - obviously the type of women who would not hesitate to follow the way of the Torah, and to sacrifice their own lives for the sake of other Jews. Instead, they accept their mission from Pharoah, and then do exactly the opposite of what he commands. Why this rather convoluted strategy? Considering Shifrah and Puah were not afraid of being put to death by Pharoah for going against his orders, why did they not tell him, "no" to his face? Given their spiritual greatness, the approach they chose was definitely not an act of cowardice, but instead something more premeditated.

Shifrah and Puah's greatness does not lie only in the fact that they did not kill their fellow Jews. This we expect from every Jewish woman. Rather, what is extraordinary is that, under the circumstances, they had the cool and the ability to think and come up with an original solution. They knew that saying "no" to Pharoah and losing their lives would only result in the appointment of another two Jewish midwives for the task. These two might be spiritually weaker and willing to give in to Pharoah's demand, with the resulting termination of the Jewish Nation. So they say "yes" to Pharoah while, to themselves they said, "we'll find a way to get out of this, but we won't give Pharoah the option to approach other midwives, because we don't know who those others will be."

In contriving his plan of infanticide, Pharoah did not reckon with Shifrah and Puah's fear of God. The Torah tells us, "the midwives feared God and they did not do as the king of Egypt spoke to them" The text continues, "and they caused the boys to live" (Shemos, 1:17). In other words, the midwives' commitment to God included a commitment to the promulgation of the Jewish people, which they expressed not only by saving the lives of Jewish-born infants, but by doing everything in their power to care for them after birth. Further, the Midrash tells us that they prayed to God to preserve even the babies who were to die of natural causes, in order to avoid giving Pharoah the impression that they were in fact abiding by his decree.

Pharoah eventually summons Shifrah and Puah, and asks them, "How is it that you are not doing my job, whatever I told you to do?" They respond, "the Hebrew women are unlike the Egyptian women, for they are experts; before the midwife comes to them, they have given birth" (Shemos 1:19). The two midwives contend that there is only the afterbirth left by the time they arrive, and that to kill the newly born infants at this point would be to reveal their role as Pharoah's secret agents. This, Shifrah and Puah argue, would only cause the Jewish women to further deceive them, by giving later due dates, in which case they would never know when a birth was taking place. Shifrah and Puah convinced Pharoah to continue using their services, which enabled them to continue to preserve the Jewish people.

Subsequently, the Torah text tells us, "God benefited the midwives" and that, "the people increased and became very strong" (Exodus 1:19). Why are these two ideas placed together? And why are they followed by, "And it was because the midwives feared God that He made them houses" (Exodus 1:21). This last statement seems as though it should follow, "God benefited the midwives," as an explanation of the type of reward God gave them for their commitment.

The Or HaChaim (R' Chaim ben Attar, 1696-1743) explains that this seeming interruption - that the Jewish nation multiplied and got very strong - is part of the reward, in two ways. In one way, every baby that was born and remained alive was credited to Shifrah and Puah. Essentially, the Jewish people prospered in the merit of these two women. Even more beautiful, perhaps, is the second explanation that implies they sought no reward from God, but wanted only to serve Him as instruments for the survival of the Jewish people.

At this point in the text, the Torah introduces another story that further highlights the greatness of Shifrah and Puah, which we will explore in our next installment.

Women in Judaism, Copyright (c) 2000 by Mrs. Leah Kohn and ProjectGenesis, Inc.

See also : http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/461823/jewish/Midwives.htm

"G‑d bestowed goodness upon the midwives, and the people multiplied and became very strong. It was because the midwives feared God, that He made houses for them." (Exodus 1:20-21)

The "Houses" G‑d made for Shifra and Puah were in fact dynasties born through them. Our Sages explain that Shifra was a pseudonym for Jochebed, and Puah was another name for Miriam. The name "Shifra" comes from the Hebrew word "meshaperet" which means "to beautify", and/or "to swaddle and clean" (i.e. a baby). Miriam was called Puah, from the Hebrew verb "Po’ah" that means "cry, coo or groan" because of the way she soothed and cooed the crying newborn infants.

Jochebed was blessed to give birth not only to her daughter Miriam, but also to Moses and Aaron. Through Jochebed (Shifra), a nation of priests was born. And Miriam (Puah) was blessed to mother the Royal dynasty, the "House of David."

There is something about being present at a birth… about standing at the threshold between born and unborn that transforms a person. Perhaps it is because of their trade that Shifra and Puah developed such faith in their conviction. Perhaps it was because they witnessed the miracle of life unfold before their eyes that they found the strength to face the challenge to kill or be killed… and overcome it with power and grace.

Shifra and Puah never entertained the idea of fighting G‑d’s will. Instead, they fought for G‑d’s will. And they won. This strength has been handed down all the way from our ancestral midwives to the modern midwives of today. May G‑d bless them to continue in the paths of Shifra and Puah, fearing G‑d, not man, and through their faith in the G‑dliness of birth, bless them to be His partners in creation.

http://rabbibuchwald.njop.org/2006/01/16/shemot-5766-2006/

[בַּחַמַל]

There are many sages who disagree with that interpretation that the midwives performed any infanticide.

You misunderstood what I was saying.

I didn't say anywhere that the midwives performed infanticide.  To the contrary.  The midwives themselves were G-D fearing women who would not perform infanticide.  The pirush of the Rashbam and the Tur is that "Vayiven Lahem Batim" he built clinics in spite of them - i.e. - because he knew that he would not be able to kill Jewish boys through the midwives.

The accusation is against Jewish women themselves, who wilfully visited these clinics.  If the Jewish women had universally rejected the clinics, Pharaoh would not have been able to execute Jewish baby boys.

Bachamal, are you currently in Israel?  Just curious.

No, I live in Canada...  I would LOVE to move to Israel, but I don't have the physical health to undergo such a move in my life right now.  I am also very worried like you about the attack on personal liberties in Israel as well.  I would at least want a 1911 and a Winchester for personal protection.  I can't reconcile with myself the idea of living in Israel without firearms.

[muman613]

You misunderstood what I was saying.

I didn't say anywhere that the midwives performed infanticide.  To the contrary.  The midwives themselves were G-D fearing women who would not perform infanticide.  The pirush of the Rashbam and the Tur is that "Vayiven Lahem Batim" he built clinics in spite of them - i.e. - because he knew that he would not be able to kill Jewish boys through the midwives.

The accusation is against Jewish women themselves, who wilfully visited these clinics.  If the Jewish women had universally rejected the clinics, Pharaoh would not have been able to execute Jewish baby boys.

I have heard this before, and my point is, that there are many more sages who interpret this to mean that "Hashem establishes 'Houses' for the midwives" meaning that their descendents would be Kohanim and The Moshiach...

I also heard it explained that Pharoah had to resort to the 'Throw all the male babies into the Nile' tactic because killing them at birth was just not working at all..

http://www.torah.org/learning/rabbis-notebook/5759/shemos.html

This terrible decree followed an earlier attempt on Pharaoh's part to enlist the Jewish midwives in a conspiracy to kill the male newborns at birth. The two midwives, Shifra and Pooah, were reputed to have been Yocheved and Miriam, mother and sister of Moshe. (Sotah 11b). It was partially because the midwives refused to participate in Pharaoh's conspiracy, that G-d rewarded them with being the purveyors of both the Redeemer's birth and Pharaoh's eventual demise. It is interesting to note that had Pharaoh been more direct and started with the royal decree of, "drown all male children" rather than attempting to enlist the help of the midwives, Yocheved and Miriam might not have had the opportunity to merit Moshe's birth.

[Rothstein77]

בס''ד

First of all, this is the type of thread that scares away women members. Why in the world would we post something so insulting to women? If not for righteous women, Chazal teach us, we would never have been liberated from slavery in Egypt. Heroic Hebrew midwives risked their lives by refusing Pharoah's order to murder all male Hebrew babies. And when the Hebrew men had decided to not have children any more because they did not want to bring children into the cruel world of slavery, it was the Hebrew women who convinced them that they had to continue to have children. And when the Hebrew men sinned with the Golden Calf, the Hebrew women did not participate in that terrible sin. And when the Hebrew men listened to the spies who told them not to conquer the land of Israel because it was "impractical" and "unrealistic", the Hebrew women trusted Hashem and wanted to go forward with the conquest.

As far as this defeatist talk about not making aliyah, this is why there was a physical holocaust in Europe and a spiritual holocaust in the United States. Making aliyah is not an option, it is a mitzvah (commandment). The galut (exile) is a punishment. You think conditions are bad in Israel today? Israel today is paradise compared to what it was 100 years ago when the chalutzim (pioneers) settled the land. There is no future for Jews outside of Israel.

What is the Torah view?

לעולם ידור אדם בארץ ישראל אפילו בעיר שרובה עובדי כוכבים, ואל ידור בחו"ל ואפילו בעיר שרובה ישראל , שכל הדר בארץ ישראל - דומה כמי שיש לו אלוה, וכל הדר בחוצה לארץ - דומה כמי שאין לו אלוה, שנא' (ויקרא כה): "לתת לכם את ארץ כנען - להיות לכם לאלהים". וכל שאינו דר בארץ אין לו אלוה?! אלא לומר לך: כל הדר בחו"ל - כאילו עובד עבודת כוכבים; וכן בדוד הוא אומר: (שמואל א, כו) "כי גרשוני היום מהסתפח בנחלת ה' לאמר לך עבוד אלהים אחרים", וכי מי אמר לו לדוד לך עבוד אלהים אחרים? אלא לומר לך: כל הדר בחו"ל - כאילו עובד עבודת כוכבים. (מסכת כתובות דף קי ע"ב)

Translation:

A Jew must always live in the land of Israel even in a city where the majority are idolators, and not live outside of the land even in a city where the majority are Jews, because all who live in the land of Israel are like one who has a G-d, and all who live outside of the land are like one who has no G-d, as it is written in Vayikra 25 [Leviticus in the Torah]: "To give you the land of Canaan, to be for you a G-d". And all who do not live in the land have no G-d? It is to say: all who live outside of the land, it is as if they worship idols as it is written in Samuel 1:26:"For they have expelled me today from being part of the inheritance of G-d to say, 'Go worship other gods'"....(Masechet Ktuvot 100:72)

Explanation:

1. In other words, Torah Judaism teaches us that living in Israel even in a city where the majority of inhabitants are idol-worshippers is preferable to living outside of the land even in a city where the majority are Jews. So Judea and Samaria (which is 80% Arab Nazis versus 20% Jews) is far preferable to Boro Park or Kew Gardens Hills or Monsey where 90% of the residents are Orthodox Jews.

2. A Jew who lives outside of Israel is like a Jew with no G-d and an idol-worshipper. A Jew who lives in Israel is like a Jew with a G-d.

Can someone live in Israel and still be an evil traitor? Of course. Traitors are not living there for the right reason. But for Jews who believe, there is no alternative to living in Israel now that we are able to do so.

The Chozon Ish said:  Who keeps mitzvohs in our time and is still considered a non believer?  Anyone who claims that it is the fault of the rabbis that 6 million Jews were murdered in Europe, and anyone who celebrates Yom Haatzmi'ut.

Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman said:  "It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King....I don't say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place."

The Chafetz Chaim said:  "In my opinion it is clear that the Zionists are from the offspring of AMALEK."

Rav Hutner explained that Zionism caused the Holocaust.

[בַּחַמַל]

Rothstein, go crawl back into the hole you just came out of.

Admins =

Please ban him.

[muman613]

Rothstein, go crawl back into the hole you just came out of.

Admins =

Please ban him.

I concur. This heretic must be banned. All but the most hare-brained sages have blessed the current ingathering as the beginning of the promised redemption. Those so-called sages who prevent the Jewish redemption are equal to the spies who speak evil of the land, and they will never be allowed to enter the land, they will die in the desert.

It is sad that this Rothstein thinks he is Jewish and yet speaks evil of Hashem and his land. But he should find one of those stinking anti-zionist sites to plaster his blasphemy.

[בַּחַמַל]

I heard of Litvishers who are praising Obama's election because of the extra handouts they'll be receiving...

[muman613]

I heard of Litvishers who are praising Obama's election because of the extra handouts they'll be receiving...

What does this have to do with the discussion? Also what 'Litvishers' are you talking about?

[בַּחַמַל]

I was pointing out that this anti-Zionist attitude is more commonly found among Litvishers.

[Irish Zionist]

Rothstein, go crawl back into the hole you just came out of.

Admins =

Please ban him.

Why not debate him?

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Let me tell you guys something about women and virginity.  Unless you're dealing with Orthodox Jews or religious conservative Christians, women who are virgins after age 20, or even sooner are seen as damaged goods.  I've experienced this first hand with dates and gynecologists.  Most average men (Jews included, I hate to say) want a woman who has been broken in properly (pun intended). 

In her excellent book "A Return To Modesty" author Wendy Shalit wrote about a young girl whose boyfriend lost interest in her when he found out she was a virgin. 

Also there was an article a while back on Salon.com about this same topic.  Women in their 20's whose boyfriends learned of their virginity dumped them. 

Now if you really want more examples, I'll be happy to go into detail.

I think it's the opposite. People should view non-virgins as used or damaged goods. People who think otherwise have an Orwellian thought process. A virgin is like unused goods. I mean look at the definition of virgin. Or even virgin olive oil (Which costs more than other olive oil.).

[muman613]

Why not debate him?

This debate has been going on for as long as the modern state exists. Most of us have been down the road before. I have tried debating with these so-called religious anti-zionists. They have a point which cannot be dislodged, that the 'three oaths' are still in effect. These oaths, according to Aggadah, were made by the Jewish people. One of them includes the promise of the Jews to not enter the land again until Hashem sends his righteous redeemer Moshiach. If one subscribes to this understanding there is no amount of debating which will change their minds.


There most certainly are some gedolim who were staunch anti-zionists. The only thing we can do to debate is to bring those pro-zionist gedolim. But what happens is they will not accept those zionist Rabbis and call them the 'eruv rav' {Mixed multitude}. In our religious zionist view they are the erev rav... What can be done to get past this?


Here is a brief discussion of the issue of the '3 oafs'

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/724623/Rabbi_Moshe_Chaim_Sosevsky/The_Three_Oaths#

[muman613]

http://dafyomi.co.il/kesuvos/insites/ks-dt-111.htm

1) THE THREE OATHS OF HASH-M
QUESTION: The Gemara infers from the verse in Shir ha'Shirim (2:7) that Hash-m made two oaths with the Jewish people and one with the nations of the world. The first oath He made with the Jewish people was that the Jewish people will not rebel against the nations of the world. The second oath He made with the Jewish people was that they will not band together and come to Eretz Yisrael by force, like a fortifying wall ("she'Lo Ya'alu Yisrael b'Chomah"). The oath He made with the nations was that they will not subjugate the Jewish people excessively. The Gemara infers from the verse that the consequence of transgressing the oath is that the flesh of the people will become Hefker like the flesh of animals.

If failure to abide by the oaths is punishable, then there must have been an acceptance of the oath by both sides. Where, though, do we find that the Jewish people (or the nations of the world) accepted these oaths?

Moreover, do the warnings contained in these oaths appear anywhere in the Torah? Since a prophet is not permitted to add anything to the Torah (Megilah 3a), it must be that the Torah already prohibits the actions proscribed by the oaths. The Jewish people may not rebel against the nations of the world because the Torah states that only Mashi'ach will have the prerogative to do this. For the same reason, they may not forcefully come to Eretz Yisrael (see following Insight). The nations of the world certainly do not have any right to oppress the Jewish people, even without the oath.

The question remains, however, what is the purpose of these oaths, and in what way is the punishment for their transgression a logical consequence measure for measure?

ANSWERS:
(a) The SEFER HA'AKEIDAH says that the oath that Hash-m made with the Jewish people in the Midbar (see Parshas Netzavim) established an interminable covenant between Hash-m and the Jewish people. By telling the Jewish people that their continued existence depends on their fulfillment of these warnings, Hash-m ensured that at least some part of the Jewish people will always observe these warnings and the nation will not suffer total annihilation.

The Sefer ha'Akeidah explains that this potential annihilation is not a punishment for transgressing the oath, for such a punishment certainly would need mutual consent. Rather, Hash-m told the Jewish people that He will protect them from the nations of the world only if they fulfill the oath. If they do not fulfill the oath, Chas v'Shalom, then Hash-m will leave the Jewish people unprotected, and consequently they will be like Hefker, like animals being hunted (as the Gemara says). This does not need the consent of the Jewish people; Hash-m protects us, and if we are unworthy of His protection He will no longer provide it. In this manner, we may be assured that the Jewish people will always merit Hashem's protection.

The Sefer ha'Akeidah's explanation may be applied to the Gemara here as well. The Torah forbids the Jewish people from transgressing these oaths even without an actual acceptance of them. The point of the oaths is to show the Jewish people that their very existence depends on fulfilling the conditions of the oaths, for if they fail to do so they will forfeit the Divine protection on which their existence depends. This knowledge certainly will stop them from going astray.

The oath made with the nations of the world may also be explained in this way. Although the nations constantly attempt to destroy the Jewish people, there often exist elements among the nations which unexplainably seek to give the Jewish people a respite, because they are aware on some level that without the Jewish people in the world, the world itself would cease to exist.

(b) The AVNEI NEZER (YD 444) explains that the Shevu'ah of the nations was actually made with their governing counterparts ("Sarim") in Shamayim who accepted the Shevu'ah and accepted not to incite their nations against the Jewish people. If they fail to abide by the oath, they are duly punished, for "when Hash-m punishes the nations, He punishes their heavenly governors first" (Mechilta, as quoted by Rashi to Shemos 4:9 and 11:5). When the nation's "Sar" is destroyed, the nation itself is destroyed as well.

Similarly, the oaths of the Jewish people were made with their Neshamos which accepted upon themselves to teach the bodies not to transgress. If the body fails to listen and transgresses, the body is not punished because it did not accept the oath. However, the connection to its Neshamah is broken because it did not listen to its Neshamah and no longer deserves that connection. Hash-m protects the Jewish people only because of their Neshamos. Accordingly, if they do not listen to their Neshamos, Hash-m removes His protection from them and they become Hefker to the forces of the world.

(c) The REBBE of SATMAR (in VA'YOEL MOSHE, Ma'amar Shalosh Shevuos) explains that these oaths were not intended to add any warnings or prohibitions to the laws of the Torah. Rather, one who violates these oaths is considered one who denies the Torah, since the Torah specifies exactly how the Ge'ulah is meant to come about and thus one who attempts to bring it about differently is considered a heretic. (This is similar to the punishment which the members of the tribe of Binyamin suffered when they left Mitzrayim prematurely. They were killed because the time of the redemption had not yet arrived, and thus they were considered heretics.)

The objective of the Shevu'ah is to inform the people of the severity of the punishment, even more than the Shevu'ah which the Jewish people took at Matan Torah itself. (Mordechai Zvi Dicker)

(d) The MAHARAL (in CHIDUSHEI AGADOS) explains that these oaths are decrees (Gezeiros) which Hash-m enacted in order to ensure continuity of the exile which Hash-m decreed. The ability of a distinct nation to be in exile and to remain distinct is an inexplicable phenomenon which cannot be explained according to the natural laws of historical progression. Accordingly, Hash-m established three new requirements: that the nations of the world not strengthen the exile by excessive oppression of the Jewish people, that the Jewish people not weaken the exile by banding together to force their way into Eretz Yisrael, and that the Jewish people not attempt to end the exile by rebelling entirely against the nations of the world. (Mordechai Zvi Dicker)

2) LIVING SINLESS IN ERETZ YISRAEL
QUESTION: Rebbi Elazar states that one who lives in Eretz Yisrael "dwells without sin" ("Nesu Avon"), as the verse says, "One who lives there will not say, 'I am sick;' the nation that dwells there will be forgiven of sin" (Yeshayah 33:24).

How is it possible that every person in Eretz Yisrael lives there without sin? How can this be true if the Jewish people were punished and exiled from Eretz Yisrael for their sins? On the contrary, the RAMBAN (end of Parshas Acharei Mos) writes that only when the Jewish people are in Eretz Yisrael are they punished with exile for sinning, because sins committed in Eretz Yisrael are punished much more severely than sins committed in Chutz la'Aretz. (PNEI YEHOSHUA)

ANSWERS:
(a) RAV YAKOV EMDEN (in Hagahos Ya'avetz) and the IYUN YAKOV explain that living in Eretz Yisrael atones only for less serious sins, and not for serious ones (like Avodah Zarah, Giluy Arayos, and Shefichus Damim, or rebellious sins, "Pesha'im"). The Iyun Yakov also suggests that living in Eretz Yisrael forgives only the sins of individuals who sin in private but not the sins committed collectively by an entire community. The Iyun Yakov adds (in the name of his father) that living in Eretz Yisrael only lessens the sin, making an intentional sin like an unintentional one. This explains why the verse says that they are "Nesu Avon" -- "forgiven of sin," which is the word that refers to intentional sin (as opposed to "Chet" which refers to unintentional sin, which they do have).

(b) The PNEI YEHOSHUA and ETZ YOSEF (in the Ein Yakov) explain that Eretz Yisrael alone does not grant pardon for sins. Rather, one's Teshuvah is accepted more readily in Eretz Yisrael. Alternatively, it is easier to do Teshuvah in Eretz Yisrael because of the Kedushah that exists there.

We may add that the Gemara in Berachos (7a) states that a person is punished for the sins of his fathers when he commits the same acts. The reason for this might be that when a person sins, his acts become such a part of the person that he is able to pass the trait on to his children, who either learn it from him or inherit it from him (see Insights to Shabbos 55:4). A person who lives in Eretz Yisrael, however, is awakened to do Teshuvah so often that any evil traits of his father are not transmitted to him. He is influenced more by the Kedushah of the land than by those evil traits of his father. Therefore, he is free of the "Avon" of his father. When the verse says "Nesu Avon" -- "forgiven of sin," it refers to the "Avon" in the verse, "Poked Avon Avos Al Banim" -- "He remembers (and punishes) the sin of the fathers upon the children" (Shemos 34:7). (M. Kornfeld. The Iyun Yakov also hints to this on 110b, DH Kol, and 111b, DH v'Ken Amru.)

In what way does living in Eretz Yisrael prompt a person to do Teshuvah, more so than living in Chutz la'Aretz? Perhaps the Gemara refers to the teaching of the Sifri cited by Tosfos in Bava Basra (21a, DH Ki mi'Tziyon). The Sifri states that when the people would come to Yerushalayim from all parts of Eretz Yisrael at the time of the festival and witness the immense Kedushah there and the Kohanim as they performed the Avodah in the Beis ha'Mikdash, "their hearts would turn towards the fear of G-d and to the study of Torah." (Even after the destruction of the Beis ha'Mikdash, Yerushalayim remained a city of holiness, where great Tzadikim dwelled to be near the place of the Shechinah.)
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Read more @ http://dafyomi.co.il/kesuvos/insites/ks-dt-111.htm

[בַּחַמַל]

Why not debate him?

Because it would expose a rift between my Hassidic sect and these Rabbis.  Don't get me wrong, I respect the Chafetz Chayim and Rabbi Wasserman, but the Chazon Ish is not held in high esteem within Lubavitch, and I was hoping to avoid bringing this fact to light.

But now that you have brought it up, I will mention that even the Lubavitch Rabbis were anti-Zionist at a certain point.  But the Lubabvitcher Rebbe said that now that Israel already exists, we are obligated to support it.

People like Rothstein are trying to exploit the discontent of true Israeli supporters with the current state of affairs.  Let me clarify one point:  Although I have made some statements with my dissatisfaction with Israeli Jews, I will forever support Israel until I breathe my last dying breath.

[muman613]

Because it would expose a rift between my Hassidic sect and these Rabbis.  Don't get me wrong, I respect the Chafetz Chayim and Rabbi Wasserman, but the Chazon Ish is not held in high esteem within Lubavitch, and I was hoping to avoid bringing this fact to light.

But now that you have brought it up, I will mention that even the Lubavitch Rabbis were anti-Zionist at a certain point.  But the Lubabvitcher Rebbe said that now that Israel already exists, we are obligated to support it.

People like Rothstein are trying to exploit the discontent of true Israeli supporters with the current state of affairs.  Let me clarify one point:  Although I have made some statements with my dissatisfaction with Israeli Jews, I will forever support Israel until I breathe my last dying breath.

Some troll a few months ago started on a rampage against Chabad and other 'pro-zionist' Hassidic sects. When we debated with him it became clear that he was an anti-zionist and thus he felt a need to attack the Chabad Rebbe. I stood up to this attack and eventually the troll was banned..

I spoke with one of my good Chabad Rabbis about this and he supplied me with a good amount of material discussing which gedolim stood with the Rebbe on these issues.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Ooh yeah, g-grandfather was a Levi, what's up baby!!!

Mine also was. My grandmother is a Bat Levi. If my father was the first born, he wouldn't need a Pidyon HaBen.