What is going on here?!

[jsullivan]

Why all of this disrespect toward ftf? He IS the moderator of this forum.

Instead of debating the Muslim Nazi who came on the forum, you wound up fighting with each other.

This Muslim Nazi is our sworn enemy and represents an ideology of pure evil. He started to reveal himself in his posts as he spoke about how Torah Judaism distorts the word of G-d, and how Allah has said that about Judaism. Of course, he feels the same way about Christianity and every other religion. So he is saying that the Bible is a lie, and the Koran is the truth. Which is indeed what Nazi Islam teaches.

Now I agree with posters who say that we must hate Muslim Nazis who want to exterminate us. However, if Muslim Nazis come on this forum to debate, that only makes our forum more interesting and gives us an opportunity to sharpen our debating skills. We must NEVER forget whom we are debating. They ARE the enemy. But we have to learn how to defeat opponents in debate in order to spread the truth and refute the lies. Nothing better teaches us how to win debates than real live experience.

ftf totally opposed everything that the Muslim Nazi was saying, and was refuting the Muslim effectively. And Newman and others also brought up excellent arguments. But to start attacking ftf in the middle of a debate with the enemy is completely uncalled for. WHEN WE ARE CONFRONTING THE ENEMY, YOU DO NOT START ATTACKING YOUR FELLOW JTFERS.

ftf wants to debate Muslims without threats or insults. He feels that threats or insults detract from the main points that are being made to refute the lies of Islam. I have no problem with this as long as WE remember whom we are debating (this is NOT a decent human being with a mere difference of opinion, but a supporter of a terrorist religion that commands its followers to commit Nazi genocide against ALL non-Muslim "infidels"). If WE remember that, then there is nothing wrong with debating the Muslim Nazi and refuting him point by point.

Chaim and I have repeatedly requested that posters here not continue to dwell on what happened with Allen. To keep bringing this up, and to keep attacking ftf is unacceptable.

This is ftf's subforum and I ask that posters respect his wishes here. I especially do not want to see attacks on ftf for trying to do his job.

IF WE CANNOT LEARN TO RESPECT EACH OTHER IN JTF, THEN WE WILL NOT ACHIEVE OUR GOALS, G-D FORBID.

[newman]

With great respect, Jimmy ftf started it by telling me to shut up on the thread. In addition he was abusing his authority by deleting posts that don't violate JTF rules. He also demanded we all be 'civil' to a muslim-nazi.

I can also tell you that a lot of members are astounded that he is still a moderater after challeging Chaims ruling regarding missionising to Jews and continuing to assert his right to do so.........all after the July 01 Ask JTF when all this was clarrified. Obviously it's OK to say 'well I don't care what Chaim or Torah say, my religion says__________ so I'll do what I like'.

Jump on me if you want but I'm not Robinson Caruso here.Brace yourself for when the other members see this thread in the morning.

[Muck DeFuslims]

What's going on here is a moderator that was demanding we treat the Moozie with respect and deleting posts he considered disrespectful.

What's also going on here is a moderator that still hasn't renounced his view that it is right for Christians to attempt to convert Jews.

I have no problem with ftf debating Moozies without threatening them or insulting them. I think it's a waste of time debating Moozies, but I don't dislike ftf for engaging the Moozie, nor would I ever question his right to do so. However, when he starts deleting posts in the thread for being 'insulting' or 'slanderous' or not 'respectful' to the Moozie beast, then he's making an error in judgement which leads one to question his status as a moderator.

The deleted posts certainly contained no threats to the Moozie beast. Could they be construed as being slanderous towards Islam or disrespectful ? Perhaps. But that would be only be by people unaware of what Islam is really about or those too politically correct or afraid of speaking the truth about pedo-Mo's cult of death.

ftf would not have been attacked had he not put more value in being respectful to the Moozie enemy than being respectful to his fellow JTFers.

Respect is something that should be earned. The Moozie comes to the forum trying to convince us we're wrong about Islam and wanting to be treated respectfully. But he doesn't deserve respect.

The moderator insists we respect the Moozie and deletes posts he doesn't consider respectful enough and incorrectly denounces others as being slanderous. The same moderator has beliefs regarding the conversion of Jews, that I consider insulting and disrespectful as a Jew, and run contrary to JTF's policy of working with people that missionize Jews.

Jimmy, my question to you is should this moderator be respected because he is a moderator, or should he be respected for the actions he takes as a moderator and for his stated beliefs ? Think about it.

[Lisa]

You guys, I can see where you're all coming from.  But Jimmy is right about showing unity when we're debating a moozie.  If you had a problem with FTF deleting your posts, or anything else, you could have just sent him a private message. 

[Shlomo]

Yes, what good are we going to be if we fight with each other when a muslim shows up? That makes no sense. A little respect for each other goes a long way.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Agreed. Unity is the ticket.

But respect is a two way street and should be earned.

I still think the moderator's actions were unjustified and I'm still uncomfortable with some of his beliefs.

The moderator is definitely not blameless in this instance.

But in the interest of unity, I'll stop beating a dead horse.

[Ehud]

Yes respect and unity is indeed important.  As ftf and newman were both debating the Muslim Nazi, ftf told newman to shut-up in a disrespectful way, out of nowhere!  This was after ftf complained about newman's tactics in the Admin and Mod sub-forum but BEFORE he privately told newman in a RESPECTFUL way that he would like him to cease attacking the Muslim in slanderous and insulting ways.  He didn't even ask newman in a polite way through PM, instead he told him to shut-up and then he deleted one of newman's posts.  Of course newman and the rest of us were disturbed that a fellow JTFer would tell another one to shut-up and delete his posts while debating a muslim Nazi animal who wants to use taqiya to trick people here at JTF.  Respect IS a two way street, but ftf FIRST showed disrespect to newman and newman simply reacted to that.  Newman also did not agree with ftf's methods of arguments but he did not tell ftf to shut-up or stop what he was doing.  Anyways we need to put this behind us, and we need to understand and respect other JTF members and their methods of argumentation, even if that includes insults to the Islamic foe.  If someone wants to debate an Islamic Nazi head on in a respectful and courteous way, go ahead and PM the Muzzie yourself, instead of censoring your fellow JTFer. 

I like ftf and I think he should remain a moderator.  He's a great asset to the forum and demonstrated a cool demeanor when arguing with his foes (at least to the Muslim Nazi).  He just needs to understand that he doesn't have the right to remove posts that he doesn't agree with.  Chaim clearly stated just yesterday that we have every right to insult, demean, and slander ANY of our enemies which certainly includes any Muslim Nazis who try to come here to convince JTF that Islam is a religion of peace. 

[mord]

The guy Abdullah really was'nt that disrespectfull

[Ehud]

Yes saying that Judaism corrupted the Torah and that all the Prophets were originally Muslim and Judaism was originally actually Islam is not disrepectful at all.

[ftf]

Yes saying that Judaism corrupted the Torah and that all the Prophets were originally Muslim and Judaism was originally actually Islam is not disrepectful at all.

Of course someone saying that may upset Jews, but it's what the guy honestly believes, it's a core teaching of Islam. Rather than shouting and screaming at him, you should be proving to him why it can't possibly be the truth.

[Ehud]

Yes saying that Judaism corrupted the Torah and that all the Prophets were originally Muslim and Judaism was originally actually Islam is not disrepectful at all.

Of course someone saying that may upset Jews, but it's what the guy honestly believes, it's a core teaching of Islam. Rather than shouting and screaming at him, you should be proving to him why it can't possibly be the truth.

You are a bit naive ftf.  There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that we could EVER convince someone who has been indoctrinated into the Islamic faith that he is wrong short of kidnapping him and brainwashing him for a period of a few months.  There is no need to try to convince, even the foremost experts in Christianity and Judaism could not convince him if given the chance.  The only reason that we should attempt to "debate" him is to understand what the enemy thinks and how the enemy behaves.

[ftf]

We convinced Sarah that Islam was wrong. My pressuring inserted enough doubt to eventually turn someone else I know from Islam as well. Furthermore if we have debates with muslims in which the muslims lose on display it will help to convince others that we are right about how evil Islam is.

[Joe Schmo]

We convinced Sarah that Islam was wrong.

Perhaps we did, I'm not totally sure.

[Ehud]

The only way I would believe that someone was fully reformed from Islam is if they make a commitment to FULLY convert to either Christianity or Judaism and completely renounce Islam.  Muslims are notorious for lying.  Who knows why she is here claiming that she has renounced Islam but I do not see her renouncing Islam definitely and finally.  She will probably find herself in Islam again.

[ftf]

The only way I would believe that someone was fully reformed from Islam is if they make a commitment to FULLY convert to either Christianity or Judaism and completely renounce Islam.  Muslims are notorious for lying.  Who knows why she is here claiming that she has renounced Islam but I do not see her renouncing Islam definitely and finally.  She will probably find herself in Islam again.

She became a Noahide, and was at one point looking at converting to Judaism, I'm not quite suure what she is doing atm though.

[jsullivan]

With great respect, Jimmy ftf started it by telling me to shut up on the thread. In addition he was abusing his authority by deleting posts that don't violate JTF rules. He also demanded we all be 'civil' to a muslim-nazi.

I can also tell you that a lot of members are astounded that he is still a moderater after challeging Chaims ruling regarding missionising to Jews and continuing to assert his right to do so.........all after the July 01 Ask JTF when all this was clarrified. Obviously it's OK to say 'well I don't care what Chaim or Torah say, my religion says__________ so I'll do what I like'.

Jump on me if you want but I'm not Robinson Caruso here.Brace yourself for when the other members see this thread in the morning.

If that is what happened, then ftf acted improperly. Moderators should never act disrespectfully toward members unless the members are blatantly violating the forum's rules. Telling someone to "shut up" and deleting their posts does seem quite disrespectful. If a Muslim Nazi comes to this forum to tell us that Torah Judaism is a lie, then newman has every right to insult the Muslim Nazi.

ftf can debate the Muslim Nazi in his own way if he wishes. But we should respect forum members who want to debate in a more aggressive manner. After all, Islam is waging a terrorist war of mass murder against us.

I often tell Chaim about the arguments and disputes that go on here, and Chaim is surprised. He said that this occurs much less frequently on the Hebrew forum even though over 90% of the Hebrew forum members are teenagers. Maybe it's because on the English forum, we have so many different religions and ethnicities. On the Hebrew forum, 99% of the members are Jewish. And almost all of them are Israeli Jews.

Please, let's focus on the bigger picture: if we become a mass movement, G-d willing, we will be able to change history and make this a better world.

[newman]

With great respect, Jimmy ftf started it by telling me to shut up on the thread. In addition he was abusing his authority by deleting posts that don't violate JTF rules. He also demanded we all be 'civil' to a muslim-nazi.

I can also tell you that a lot of members are astounded that he is still a moderater after challeging Chaims ruling regarding missionising to Jews and continuing to assert his right to do so.........all after the July 01 Ask JTF when all this was clarrified. Obviously it's OK to say 'well I don't care what Chaim or Torah say, my religion says__________ so I'll do what I like'.

Jump on me if you want but I'm not Robinson Caruso here.Brace yourself for when the other members see this thread in the morning.

If that is what happened, then ftf acted improperly. Moderators should never act disrespectfully toward members unless the members are blatantly violating the forum's rules. Telling someone to "shut up" and deleting their posts does seem quite disrespectful. If a Muslim Nazi comes to this forum to tell us that Torah Judaism is a lie, then newman has every right to insult the Muslim Nazi.

ftf can debate the Muslim Nazi in his own way if he wishes. But we should respect forum members who want to debate in a more aggressive manner. After all, Islam is waging a terrorist war of mass murder against us.

I often tell Chaim about the arguments and disputes that go on here, and Chaim is surprised. He said that this occurs much less frequently on the Hebrew forum even though over 90% of the Hebrew forum members are teenagers. Maybe it's because on the English forum, we have so many different religions and ethnicities. On the Hebrew forum, 99% of the members are Jewish. And almost all of them are Israeli Jews.

Please, let's focus on the bigger picture: if we become a mass movement, G-d willing, we will be able to change history and make this a better world.

Thankyou for clarifying the 1st half of my post Jimmy. Many of us are still in the dark re: the second half.

[ftf]

I'm trying to let this die down, but I feel a need to defend myself this time.

The posts that I deleted, contained obscenities that cannot be appropriate for a forum that claims to be civilised.

And regarding respect, I can't respect someone who doesn't respect me, just like I can't tolerate Islam as it doesn't tolerate me.

As I am again being lambasted regarding my religion, let me say this, I am not involved in and have never been involved in preaching Christianity to Jews.

[newman]

I'm trying to let this die down, but I feel a need to defend myself this time.

The posts that I deleted, contained obscenities that cannot be appropriate for a forum that claims to be civilised.

And regarding respect, I can't respect someone who doesn't respect me, just like I can't tolerate Islam as it doesn't tolerate me.

As I am again being lambasted regarding my religion, let me say this, I am not involved in and have never been involved in preaching Christianity to Jews.

Do you now state that you will NOT ever attempt to proselytise to, missionise to, or in any way attempt to convert any JEW in OR outside the forum, ftf?

[Shlomo]

As I am again being lambasted regarding my religion, let me say this, I am not involved in and have never been involved in preaching Christianity to Jews.

I don't think he can be more clear than that. ftf does not believe in missionizing to Jews, if that's what you are worried about.

We will never tolerate missionizing to Jews on the forum (on or off) and we, certainly, wouldn't allow a moderator to stay in that position if they believed this. ftf and I have talked in detail and he shouldn't have to keep defending himself on this topic. He is respectful of the Jewish faith and the Jewish people, newman. His love for Israel is enormous.

[newman]

As I am again being lambasted regarding my religion, let me say this, I am not involved in and have never been involved in preaching Christianity to Jews.

I don't think he can be more clear than that. ftf does not believe in missionizing to Jews, if that's what you are worried about.

We will never tolerate missionizing to Jews on the forum (on or off) and we, certainly, wouldn't allow a moderator to stay in that position if they believed this. ftf and I have talked in detail and he shouldn't have to keep defending himself on this topic. He is respectful of the Jewish faith and the Jewish people, newman. His love for Israel is enormous.

Just seeking clarity, Jeffguy. The statement referred to past and present. It said nothing about the near future. But OK......I'll drop it if you guys are satisfied.

[Muck DeFuslims]

I'm trying to let this die down, but I feel a need to defend myself this time.

The posts that I deleted, contained obscenities that cannot be appropriate for a forum that claims to be civilised.

And regarding respect, I can't respect someone who doesn't respect me, just like I can't tolerate Islam as it doesn't tolerate me.

As I am again being lambasted regarding my religion, let me say this, I am not involved in and have never been involved in preaching Christianity to Jews.

I was going to let this die down too, but since ftf won't then I feel compelled to air some things out.

ftf is attempting to play the victim here.

That's a load.

He claims he is being 'lambasted' over his religion.

That is an outright LIE.

If anyone here has ever 'lambasted' ftf for being a Christian, I'd like to see it.

The only thing ftf has been criticized for is his belief that it is ok for Christians to try to convert Jews.

This is a belief he still has, but he avoids saying so, and instead plays the victim claiming he is the one being wronged.

I think ftf believes missionizing is an integral part of Christianity and takes JTF's policy of not allowing missionizing of Jews as an affront to his Christianity.

This is what he actually means when he says he is being 'lambasted' because of his religion.

If I am wrong, let ftf prove it.

This can very easily be accomplished.

All he has to do is say 'Christians shouldn't try to convert Jews'.

I doubt you'll hear that from him.

You might get a 'I won't attempt to convert Jews' out of him, but the truth is he still supports those who do. He has NOT changed the beliefs he openly stated when he threatened to leave this forum along with Allen-T.

In any event, ftf is full of it when he says he is being lambasted for being a Christian.

Now, moving on to the posts he deleted.

He deleted one of my posts, but his stated reason wasn't for obscenities.

No, he deleted my post because 'it contained nothing worth reading'.

Was newman being obscene when ftf told him to 'shut up' and deleted his post ?

I don't think so.

The truth is ftf took it upon himself to delete those posts because he felt they weren't 'civil' enough.

He's trying to prove he can win a civil debate with a Moozie. Fine.

But DON'T delete posts from other users who do not wish to be civil with Muslims or show Muslims any respect.

He claims "I can't tolerate Islam as it doesn't tolerate me".

Yet he demanded tolerance and civility and respect for a Muslim in a debate, and censored those who didn't wish to be 'tolerant'.

What can be more hypocritical than to say you can't tolerate Islam, but then delete the posts of fellow JTF members because they aren't tolerant or civil enough ?

This REEKS of hypocrisy, just as his position of - 'I won't missionize Jews, and never have, but I support those that do, and if you criticize me for this you are lambasting me for being a Christian' - does !!!

ftf says he can't respect someone that doesn't respect him.

As I stated earlier in this thread, respect should be EARNED.

I don't respect the distortion of the truth, hypocrites, or people that disrespect Judaism by thinking it's fine to try to convert Jews.

For those reasons, I have a real hard time trying to respect ftf.

I was going to let this rest, especially after reading Jimmy's response to Newman earlier in the thread, but ftf's 'explanation' of why he deleted posts and his disingenuous 'playing the victim' compelled me to reply.
 
Regardless of how I feel about ftf, if Jimmy, Jeffguy, Lisa and the rest of the administrators and moderators of this forum, whom I do respect, want this issue to end here, I will abide by your wishes.

The JTF message is more important than issues with any moderator.

Enough said.

[newman]

Sarah was never a real Muslim. She just wanted it to be what she was comfortable with but we showed her what it really was.

Tacov,

That Abdulla is persuing Sarah with questions on the thread...no harm there. If he harrasses her with personal messages, though..... ban him. I trust you to keep an eye on things.