Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Why Things First Got Worse When Moshe Appeared Before Pharoah
edu:
One answer I would like to propose is based on the statement of Rashi and our sages that during the plague of darkness 80 percent of the Israeliltes were killed in a plague (hidden from the view of the Egyptians) because conditions had begun to improve in Egypt and they didn't want to leave.
If 80 percent had this viewpoint after going through the increased suffering when Pharoah took away their straw and demanded the same work output, imagine what percentage of the Israelites would have wanted to stay without going through this added persecution. Probably much higher.
If you would like to add an answer, you are invited to do so.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
I do not think the 1/5 th only leaving thus 80% dying is a Pshat statement. In fact then their are mentioned figures 1 in 500 etc. etc. Their has to be another meaning to this as 600,000 men + their families would means their were at least 5 times that many people? (I know their is a medrash or Rashi that 6 came out at once but again their is more to this meaning).
edu:
This is my reply to Tag-MehirTzedek
who wrote:
--- Quote ---I do not think the 1/5 th only leaving thus 80% dying is a Pshat statement.
--- End quote ---
The Bible tells us that after the first seven years of marriage, Yaakov (Jacob) had 4 wives that produced 11 sons and 1 daughter. His final son Binyamin was born several years later.
Approximately during the first 91 years in Egypt, give or take a year, the Israelites had it good in Egypt, because the Pharoah who did not know Yosef (Joseph) had not yet come to power.
So let us say that 60 out of the 70 from Yaakov's family that arrived in Egypt followed in their father's footsteps and within 7 years had multiple wives and 11 sons and an unknown amount of daughters. So after 25 years in Egypt the 60 would produce at least 660 sons. The recommended marriage age according to Pikei Avot is 18 so I chose to focus after 25 year in Egypt to allow the youngest of the 60 men under discussion to have 7 full years of marriage.
After 50 years in Egypt those 660 sons would have produced at least 7260 sons (11*660). After 75 years the 7260 sons would have produced 79860 (7260*11). From that point in time, even if the amount of sons just doubled every 25 years (since conditions were no longer so favorable. We would have after 100 years in Egypt 159,720 sons (79860*2). At year 125 in Egypt (159720*2) 319,440 sons. At year 150 in Egypt we would have (319440 *2) 638,880. At year 175 in Egypt, we would have 1,277,760. At year 200, we would have 2,555,520 sons.
Now if you take into account the women in the population, who were probably more numerous than the men, because the Egyptians were actively trying to kill some of the men and not the women and you take into account those children born between year 200 in Egypt and the Exodus, as well as the fact that some of the grandfathers and grandmothers were still alive you could have 80 percent of the population dying and still remain with 600,000 men over age 20, leaving Egypt (even without relying on the midrash that the average woman in Egypt gave birth to 6 children at one time).
There are also other scenarios that could lead to having a population 5 times the size of the population that actually left Egypt (in existence slightly before the plague of darkness ) but this scenario is sufficient for me to make the point.
I will also add that it probably is really fitting to have at least a 12 son average and not just an 11 son average (at least during the good times in Egypt) because by Yishmael, he was blessed with having very much children (the Hebrew for very much being מאד מאד) see Breishit Genesis 17:20 where the verse goes on to explain that this means 12 (male) princes.
And in the first chapter of Shmot (Exodus) the increase of Israel is described as very much מאד, מאד
which at the very least should then equal 12 and probably more, since additional terms of increase are used to describe the population growth of Israel (at least during the good times).
Tag-MehirTzedek:
I doubt it. Also remember that Yaakov married very late as well. He had 4 wives yes, but the generations downward had to have the females born and they were born from within the Israelites in Egypt and it were they who'm they married. The 1/5th does not have to be Pshat. And if it is, let's say we agree with that statement, then we would also have to accept 1 in 500 or 1 in 5,000 (or whatever other figures are given). The Pshat of the statement (in the Chummas) was that the Israelites came out ARMED out of Egypt. Soo from that word they started Darshining 1 in 5, 1 in 500 etc.
Now the possibilities are that either 1) non of them are true, 2) on of them are true and the rest are not 3) they meant something else since all the statements could not be true in the literal sense at the same time. It is logically not possible to be 1 in 5 and 1 in 500 at the same time.
Now the question remains what did they mean in each of these figures? Perhaps the mentality of leaving Egypt (meaning those who came out of the galut mentality or not) Perhaps connected to the actual fact that they came out ARMED as the word implies and yett did not fight back their oppressors at the sea since a slave and someone used to that statues does not fight back even when he is armed. Perhaps.
edu:
Rashi in his commentary to Breishit Genesis 50:13 says basically that the sons of Yaakov married Canaanite women.
So I disagree with the statement of Tag-MehirTzedek who said:
--- Quote ---but the generations downward had to have the females born and they were born from within the Israelites in Egypt and it were they who'm they married.
--- End quote ---
In theory if you allow for the average Israelite even much more multiple wives than 4 at least in the first century during their exile in Egypt, you can get even to that larger number of 1 in 500. But not every view in the midrash is equal.
Rashi holds that 1 in 500 is not consistent with the Pshat (literal reading) but 1 in 5 surviving Egypt is.
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