Sefer Torahs of the 20th Century

[muman613]

KWRBT,

You are one perplexing guy. You are the one who said that there is no point in asking whether this method is Kosher because your Rabbi whoever his name is (Abadi) says it is. You are the one who seems to take the opinion of a single Rabbi over the combined opinion of other Rabbis who are also poseks. And then you somehow twist what I am saying as if it is an attack on you and your Rabbi.

I said that I do not accept the opinion of one Rabbi who does not have support from other Rabbis in his position. There is nothing wrong with this practice and it is the way Judaism has evolved over the millenium. No one Rabbi has the power to say that a new innovation is kosher without others looking into the matter.

Sorry edu, but Rabbi Abadi IS a prominent rabbi.   He is highly esteemed, and this is the rare authentic Posek of our times who hearkens back to the great scholars of yesteryear - how poskim really were.   This is true expertise and the motivations that our scholars have always had until the modern era - a credit to our heritage, not a busha.   If you imagine that the scholars of old were similar to today's run-of-the-mill so-called experts of the "halachic system" you do a disservice to all those great chachamim of Europe and the middle east.    If Rabbi Abadi is signed on to something, feel free to disagree, but to question the authenticity is a joke.

There have been so many artificial and unnecessary chumrot attached to our "halachic system" of today that it is in some cases unrecognizable.   A real posek like this can see through all the fog and determine what is required and what is truly not.   If you wish to hold yourself to every possible stringency and try to "cover every shita" then you don't have to follow guidance of wise scholars such as this.   The questioning of whether it's in line with halacha is a complete joke however.   If a posek such as Rabbi Abadi cannot decide what fits within halacha and what doesn't, then no one can.   I don't know what Jewish pope you are looking for to decide the matter for you definitively, but where exactly does he get his authority if Rav Abadi or other poskim don't have any?   

And to respond like that to edus seemingly reasonable question seems to be out of line.

I would like to see some prominent Rabbis give their opinion on this process.
One question that comes to mind, is that the scribe is supposed to speak out each word before writing it and before writing one of the ten holy names of G-d, he has to say "for the sake of the holiness of the name".
The way you described it, it does not sound like this new process allows for what I stated above.
Also you have to check if your squeegee across the Klaf process is considered halachic writing.

The only 'benefit of the doubt' which I can give to you is that you took edu's response as a rebuke of Rabbi Abadi's response. I did not take it as such, just a reasonable question as to whether this process has undergone a review by other poseks...

[muman613]

??

Rav Abadi's site is a site of responsa.   People ask him questions.   He answers.  And in some cases his sons answer on his behalf using his methodology, or transmit his opinion.    It is YOU who do not trust the process of shaila's and teshuvas because you are trying to limit the ability of a rav or posek to give a suitable answer unless it is "sanctioned" by some unknown or unofficial body that no one knows about but apparently stands on behalf of the masses to determine what halachic opinions are kosher and what are not.      There is no papal infallibility in Judaism.  If someone wants to challenge Rav Abadi's opinion, go ahead and pose a kasha or write up some problem with it and let him answer.   That was never the problem here.   The problem here is with edu, and by extension, definitely you, who wish to say that no matter what Rav Abadi says, since it sounds a bit different to you or a bit out of the ordinary, it definitely needs some group of rabbis to come along and say 'we certify this is ok' and then it makes him trustworthy.   But otherwise, he cannot be listened to or followed, I guess because the aguda didn't put him on a dais, or maybe the chassidic rebbes didn't declare him of the royal court.  That's a bunch of baloney.

Ah the heart of the matter... You feel we were trying to question the Halachic authority of Rabbi Abadi. I speak for myself in saying that I have never heard of him, and I respect his opinion and think this is great work.... But I do not question his authority I would like to see whether other Rabbis who have reviewed this also concur that the process meets all Halachic requirements.

And KWRBT, do not take it as personally as it appears you are taking it... I know this has nothing to do with 'Chassidic Rabbis' versus other Rabbis... I hope you realize this...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Ah the heart of the matter... You feel we were trying to question the Halachic authority of Rabbi Abadi. I speak for myself in saying that I have never heard of him, and I respect his opinion and think this is great work.... But I do not question his authority I would like to see whether other Rabbis who have reviewed this also concur that the process meets all Halachic requirements.

 Fair enough (as opposed to some thing said earlier). The thing is one cannot dismiss something brought forth and with the claim that he/she needs others Rabbis and also say this is wrong without even knowing or asking the opinions of those "other Rabbis" as well. You would need to look into it and make research before going against something? No?

[muman613]

Fair enough (as opposed to some thing said earlier). The thing is one cannot dismiss something brought forth and with the claim that he/she needs others Rabbis and also say this is wrong without even knowing or asking the opinions of those "other Rabbis" as well. You would need to look into it and make research before going against something? No?

Yes, and I never said I was against this innovation. I am just concerned whether a mistake was made and thus people may come to use invalid Sefer Torah (Chas VeShalom). I realize suggesting this may be taken to imply I have some doubt as to whether this ruling is correct, but as with all innovations I am slow to adopt them...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Yes, and I never said I was against this innovation. I am just concerned whether a mistake was made and thus people may come to use invalid Sefer Torah (Chas VeShalom). I realize suggesting this may be taken to imply I have some doubt as to whether this ruling is correct, but as with all innovations I am slow to adopt them...

 Then you ask a Rav you rely upon and why he thinks yes or no, WITH EXPLANATION if he would be giving an answer.

[muman613]

 Then you ask a Rav you rely upon and why he thinks yes or no, WITH EXPLANATION if he would be giving an answer.

Certainly. I am no expert in writing Sefer Torahs (nor am I satisfied that I could even begin to decide these maters).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Certainly. I am no expert in writing Sefer Torahs (nor am I satisfied that I could even begin to decide these maters).

 Soo don't dismiss something you (as you say) know nothing about.

[muman613]

 Soo don't dismiss something you (as you say) know nothing about.

Now you are saying I am dismissing something? I did not dismiss it, I simply agreed with edu in saying that there are questions about the process, and it would be better understood if other Rabbis would also look into the question. I rely on the decisions of the Rabbis, and don't accept any one Rabbis Halachic decisions. My primary Rabbi who I consult is Chabad, but I don't accept all Chabads opinions exclusively. I will also learn the other opinions before accepting any answer to a question by a Rabbi.

I have no comment on this particular Sefer Torah process. I just do know that Torah scrolls are expensive because it takes a great deal of work to create them. If there is a way to bring the price down then it is a great thing. I hope you understand that I am certainly not dismissing his decision.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

You are one perplexing guy. You are the one who said that there is no point in asking whether this method is Kosher because your Rabbi whoever his name is (Abadi) says it is.   

I always have a hard time discerning whether you consistently miss my point or whether you are just very skilled at obfuscating.       This was never what I said.   I already restated my point 100 times in this thread in my previous comments.   Since you insist upon misrepresenting what I wrote here, I'll have to repeat it again, in bold.

There is no papal infallibility in Judaism.  If someone wants to challenge Rav Abadi's opinion, go ahead and pose a kasha or write up some problem with it and let him answer.   That was never the problem here.   The problem here is with edu, and by extension, definitely you, who wish to say that no matter what Rav Abadi says, since it sounds a bit different to you or a bit out of the ordinary, it definitely needs some group of rabbis to come along and say 'we certify this is ok' and then it makes him trustworthy.   But otherwise, he cannot be listened to or followed, I guess because the aguda didn't put him on a dais, or maybe the chassidic rebbes didn't declare him of the royal court.  That's a bunch of baloney.]

Please don't make false accusations and make me repeat this again.   You only have to read it once to understand it.   Did you even read it?   Do you try to digest what I say before you lash out against it?

You are the one who seems to take the opinion of a single Rabbi over the combined opinion of other Rabbis who are also poseks. And then you somehow twist what I am saying as if it is an attack on you and your Rabbi. 

This is so convoluted it doesn't even make sense.  There is no way to respond to something written in a different language of which I'm not familiar.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

No one Rabbi has the power to say that a new innovation is kosher without others looking into the matter.

LOL, so now I'm saying others shouldn't look into this matter?  You are too much.

Now, have you ever considered the possibility that what causes the price of a sefer Torah to be $30,000 to 60,000 is the true innovation and actually not traditional?   Practically no one could have afforded this kind of expense in the history of our people.   And yet, it wasn't just the Moses Montefiore's of the world who were commissioning the writing of sifrei Torah.    This new procedure looks like a step in the right direction, for sure, but I believe it's ahistorical to claim that it always cost this much.

[muman613]

LOL, so now I'm saying others shouldn't look into this matter?  You are too much.

Now, have you ever considered the possibility that what causes the price of a sefer Torah to be $30,000 to 60,000 is the true innovation and actually not traditional?   Practically no one could have afforded this kind of expense in the history of our people.   And yet, it wasn't just the Moses Montefiore's of the world who were commissioning the writing of sifrei Torah.    This new procedure looks like a step in the right direction, for sure, but I believe it's ahistorical to claim that it always cost this much.

KWRBT,

Why were you so upset, calling edus post a 'joke' just because he was interested in what other Rabbis have to say about the process? There is no need to get so upset, I am not attacking your position or besmirching your name. I enjoy debating and discussing the issues, I do not try to take things personally as I really believe we all are trying to reach the truth.

I did not claim that Torahs were 'historically' always this expensive. I do know that they are precious and involve a great deal of work on the part of the Sofer.

[muman613]

I think your misunderstanding comes from this allegation which I don't believe to be true.

definitely you, who wish to say that no matter what Rav Abadi says, since it sounds a bit different to you or a bit out of the ordinary, ... But otherwise, he cannot be listened to or followed, I guess because the aguda didn't put him on a dais, or maybe the chassidic rebbes didn't declare him of the royal court.  That's a bunch of baloney.

Nobody, at least not myself, said Rabbi Abadi is not to be listened to and his opinion ignored. I do not think that your assessment of the situation is correct. I don't think edu, nor myself, ever implied that the Rabbis opinion is not to be taken. I simply joined in asking whether others have reviewed this case.

I apologize if it appeared I was impuning the Rabbis Halachic opinion. I just felt your response to edu was a bit harsh.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

This is so convoluted it doesn't even make sense.  There is no way to respond to something written in a different language of which I'm not familiar.



LOL, so now I'm saying others shouldn't look into this matter?  You are too much.

   I'm having a blast.

 And I did hear before that the current method's of writing are too much (involve too many humrot) for the Sofer to do. For example where would one today be able to write a Tefillin within a day? As opposed to back then when this was possible (this is an involved Gemarah on Tefillin during Hol HaMoed) but it seemed they were written much quicker perhaps without many of the humrot attached to them.

[muman613]

  I'm having a blast.

 And I did hear before that the current method's of writing are too much (involve too many humrot) for the Sofer to do. For example where would one today be able to write a Tefillin within a day? As opposed to back then when this was possible (this is an involved Gemarah on Tefillin during Hol HaMoed) but it seemed they were written much quicker perhaps without many of the humrot attached to them.

Good for you.... But this is no laughing matter.

So what is it you are trying to say? That the Sofers are crooked and overcharging for Seferim.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Good for you.... But this is no laughing matter.

So what is it you are trying to say? That the Sofers are crooked and overcharging for Seferim.

 NO! That perhaps the system is broken where many times good honest Sofrim are told that their work is not good enough unless they comply with all the nuances that are said for them to do which makes the processes longer and harder to accomplish and produces less of the products (Tefillin Mezuzot, Sefer Torah) for longer time.

[muman613]

 NO! That perhaps the system is broken where many times good honest Sofrim are told that their work is not good enough unless they comply with all the nuances that are said for them to do which makes the processes longer and harder to accomplish and produces less of the products (Tefillin Mezuzot, Sefer Torah) for longer time.

So I agree that if there are artificial 'chumrot' which make the process more difficult then the system needs to be analyzed. This is what the Halachic Rabbis are charged with doing. But still I tend to go along with the majority decision of these authorities. If I were to follow a particular Rabbi I guess I would listen to his opinion over other opinions.

Again I apologize for all the confusion.

[edu]

The following is a Quote from Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's Handbook of Jewish Thought page 134

Since Every Torah must be letter perfect, it must be carefully copied from another scroll. It is forbidden to write a single letter without copying it from another Torah.
Sources for this rule: Megilla 18b; Menachoth 32b; Yerushalmi, Megillah 4:1 (28b); Yad, Tefillin 1:12; Yoreh Deah 274:2. Cf. Orach Chaim 691:2 in Hagah; HaGra ad loc.

Moreover, the scribe must repeat every word out loud before writing it down, so as to insure accuracy in copying.
Sources for this rule: Tosafoth Menachoth 30a, s.v. U'Moshe; Mordecai, Halakhoth Ketanoth 957; Sefer Chasidim 284; Yoreh Deah 274:2. Cf. Orach Chaim 691:2 in Hagah; HaGra ad loc.; Magen Avraham 32:42, 691:4; Mishnah Berurah 32:136.

This was the custom among the prophets, as we find "He pronounced all these words for me with his mouth, and I wrote them with ink in the book"(Jeremiah 36:18).
Sources for this rule: Menachoth 30a

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I would like to see some prominent Rabbis give their opinion on this process.

This was the original quote.

Edu, your quote from Rabbi Kaplan's handbook and various sources are fine.  Your questions are interesting, and I would also like to know Rabbi Abadi's answers to those questions about this process.    I would learn a great deal about the production of a Sefer Torah by finding that information out.    I would never have any problem with that sort of inquiry.  There is no reason to have a problem with it.

It is your first statement which irks me and motivated my response to you.  Your statement which says

"I would like to see some prominent Rabbis give their opinion on this process." 

  This is a way of thinking which I simply don't understand.  It's a mindset that I think holds us back. Certain participants here obviously think along the same lines as you.  And maybe it's an unbridgeable gap that I simply cannot traverse with certain people no matter how much I try to elucidate this matter.   The rigid defensiveness and superficial rebuttals I receive leave me unconvinced that any real consideration of my comments took place before the hasty attempt to score a layup on me.   As such I'll simply leave the thread as is and not push on this point further (at least not in this thread).    But I have yet to hear you reply on this point here.    Muman has been doing on all the talking on your behalf.  I'm interested to hear what you think on all this.

[muman613]

KWRBT,

I do not talk for edu, and I really begin to wonder whether you are really motivated by the desire to learn and teach, or just quibble about things. I will not allow you to say that I spoke for edu, as I clearly was speaking for myself.

I did first join this discussion because I felt your response to edu was uncalled for. My reason for this is because while Rabbi Abadi may be a great Halachic source, as I mentioned the Talmud and many other sources say that the majority of the Rabbis decide the law. If you keep by a particular Rabbi I can understand taking some personal insult from such a statement, but I believe you brought up the 'Jewish pope' idea which goes fully along with my point. Through Responsa and written arguments by the poseks, the matter will be decided.

edu brings several good questions about this process, and it would be beneficial to hear the answer to them.

[edu]

For more than 500 years we have the printing press, but Rabbis have not been in favor of using it to mass produce Torahs, since they claim that using the printing press causes halachic problems.
In light of the fact, that Rabbis in the past have raised all sorts of halachic objections to using various modern technologies to mass produce Torahs, I wanted to know what other experts in the halacha (Rabbis) think about Rabbi Abadi's new process.
Does he solve in their opinion all the problems that the printing press has attached to it?

In any field that demands expert knowledge of a specialist if someone comes up with a revolutionary innovation that might have drawbacks it is only natural to ask what other experts in the field have to say about the innovation. There is no room for the accusation that  turning to the other experts for peer review is, heaven forbid, creating new popes.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Firstly:

And KWRBT, do not take it as personally as it appears you are taking it... I know this has nothing to do with 'Chassidic Rabbis' versus other Rabbis... I hope you realize this...

Huh?


And now on to other matters...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

I do not talk for edu,

Mmm hmm.   My reply comes with theme music.   Please before reading what follows, click the following and play in the background:


Now, here we go !  I present you, ladies and gentlemen, the amazing Muman!

I simply agreed with edu in saying that 

I don't think edu, nor myself, ever implied that the Rabbis opinion is not to be taken.

  I just felt your response to edu was a bit harsh

And to respond like that to edus seemingly reasonable question seems to be out of line.

 

I side with edu

And yet, when I merely made reference to the fact that you spoke on behalf of edu (which obviously, as shown, happened about 500 times in this thread - and there is nothing wrong with that, anyone is entitled to speak on behalf of whomever they want) I get a "Muman the Magnificent Rebuke" as follows:

I do not talk for edu and I really begin to wonder whether you are really motivated by the desire to learn and teach, or just quibble about things. I will not allow you to say that I spoke for edu, as I clearly was speaking for myself. 

What the he//?

You are like houdini but instead of handcuffs you use a keyboard.   You are muman the amazing crescan with an intel processor.

Oh but wait, there's more!

I did first join this discussion because I felt your response to edu was uncalled for.

And thus you spoke on behalf of him or on behalf of what you thought his point of view was.    That isn't an accusation, that's a fact.   Is there something sinister about that?  To speak on someone else's behalf - is that some kind of grave accusation to make against someone to say they spoke on someone's behalf and you felt your reputation was impugned by me referring to this ?    I am honestly at a loss to understand what you are taking offense to.   

  My reason for this is because while Rabbi Abadi may be a great Halachic source, as I mentioned the Talmud and many other sources say that the majority of the Rabbis decide the law. 

Yeah because Rabbi Abadi doesn't follow the Talmud, right?

as I mentioned the Talmud and many other sources say that the majority of the Rabbis decide the law

Repeating a mistake already corrected by multiple people in this thread.

If you keep by a particular Rabbi I can understand taking some personal insult from such a statement, but I believe you brought up the 'Jewish pope' idea which goes fully along with my point. Through Responsa and written arguments by the poseks, the matter will be decided.

I'm a hamster on a treadmill when I try to read and comprehend what you just wrote in this passage.  Just going around and around in a circle but I'm not getting anywhere with it.   I don't know what you are saying or how it's related to anything in the thread.

edu brings several good questions about this process, and it would be beneficial to hear the answer to them.

I JUST SAID THAT!
Don't believe me?

Here, I'll quote myself:   

  Your questions are interesting, and I would also like to know Rabbi Abadi's answers to those questions about this process.    I would learn a great deal about the production of a Sefer Torah by finding that information out.    I would never have any problem with that sort of inquiry.  There is no reason to have a problem with it.

So how can you be arguing against me and at the same time repeating what I said practically word for word?     Is it that you just can't stand the sight of me or Tag or anyone who agrees with Rav Bar Hayim or any rabbi that points out the flaws with Meshichist chabadniks and chabad rabbis?  And so, you "quibble" with us? to use your choice of language.   I purposely chose your word there because I believe you are projecting your own actions onto others by making these allegations of yours.

[muman613]

Firstly:
Huh?


And now on to other matters...

You suggested that edu, and I, questioned Rabbi Abadi because we only listen to 'chassidic rabbis'...

... But otherwise, he cannot be listened to or followed, I guess because the aguda didn't put him on a dais, or maybe the chassidic rebbes didn't declare him of the royal court.  That's a bunch of baloney.

Otherwise I thought this topic was growing cold...

[muman613]

KWRBT,

What is wrong with you? You seem to have basic problems communicating.

I was not SPEAKING FOR EDU you dummy... I was stating my opinion. NOWHERE DID I SAY I WAS REPRESENTING WHAT EDU WAS THINKING.

When someone says you are speaking for someone else you are accusing them of saying that they think or feel something which they did or did not feel or say. You did accuse me of speaking for edu. When a person stands up against a perceived slight against another person that is not 'speaking for them', it is 'speaking for myself' and as I did in my first post in this thread.

You really need to relax because you are annoying at times...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You suggested that edu, and I, questioned Rabbi Abadi because we only listen to 'chassidic rabbis'...

Otherwise I thought this topic was growing cold...

Umm.  You know that AGUDA is LITVAK, right?!   Litvak, aka Lithuanian Jewry, aka haredi, aka Mitnagdim.    Now read again and try to understand my point which was NOT what you thought it was.