On clothing, "peyos" and language.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If the Torah commanded that a Jew wear a particular uniform it would have been explained in the Oral Law... Where is this uniform which you guys think is the 'original' Jewish dress? Our dress indeed has been influenced by the land we live in. And as long as we dress is a unique manner, we are not going in the ways of the gentiles.   

It is you who say there is a uniform by claiming peyoth are required when they are not.  And by claiming they are "uniquely Jewish" and so on and so forth.

You must not be aware that the Talmud actually does describe Jewish mode of dress.  It includes a turban head covering, tunics and other ancient clothing styles.  I do NOT claim that we MUST wear this for all generations just because Jews at one time did.   Those Talmudic discussions are practical ones describing the brachot to make as a typical Jew gets dressed in the morning.  Since that was the clothing common at that time, it used description of those items for when to say certain brachas and so on.    Jewish law is always very practical - the sages discussed what Jews commonly wore at the time because that's what people needed to know about since that's what they were already doing -- so in what sequence do we make brachas, etc.

You once again put words in my mouth and attach opinions to me which are not my own.  Why is that?

I am strongly against the absurd notion that Jews must dress like 1800's Polish noblemen, or that Jews must wear a hat because that was a popular style of the 1950's (which morphed into only "black hats") etc.   There is no basis for any of this in Jewish law.   It's not uniquely Jewish - it is just styles copied from gentiles and made "permanent" culturally.   There is no basis for it and no use IMO. 

Enjoy slaying your straw men, but again I request for you to stop this madness of putting words in my mouth which I did not say.

[muman613]

Maybe you don't consider Rambams Sefer HaMitzvot a reliable source?

From Rambams Sefer Hamitzvot: 43rd Prohibition

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940319/jewish/Negative-Commandment-43.htm


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940319/jewish/Negative-Commandment-43.htm

The 43rd prohibition is that we are forbidden from shaving1 the temples of our heads.

The source of this commandment is G‑d's statement (exalted be He),2 "Do not round off the corners of your head."

This prohibition also3 has the goal of preventing us from emulating idol worshippers, since it was the practice of idol worshippers to shave only the sides [of their heads]. For this reason the Sages had to explain in Tractate Yevamos4 that, "Shaving the entire head is also included in the prohibition of 'rounding,'" so that you should not say that the actual prohibition is shaving the temples and leaving the rest of the hair, as the idolatrous priests do; but if you shave the entire head, you are not emulating them. The Sages therefore informed us that it is prohibited to shave the temples in any manner — not by themselves and not with the rest of the head.

One is punished by lashes separately for each side; therefore one who shaves his entire head receives two sets of lashes. We do not count them as two separate commandments although there are two sets of lashes because there are no two phrases [in Scripture] for the one prohibition. If Scripture would say, "Do not round off the right corner of your head nor the left corner of your head," and we would find [that our Sages] stipulated two sets of lashes, then we could count them as two commandments. But since there is only one expression and one type of action, it counts as one commandment. And even though this prohibition is explained as including different parts of the body, and that one receives lashes for each part separately, this does not require it to be counted as more than one commandment.

The details of this mitzvah have been explained at the end of tractate Makkos.5 Women are exempt from this prohibition.6

FOOTNOTES
1.   See Kapach 5731, footnote 13.
2.   Lev.19:27.
3.   As with the previous prohibitions.
4.   5a.
5.   20a.
6.   In Hilchos Avodah Zarah 12:2, the Rambam quotes tractate Kiddushin 35b, and explains that this prohibition is in the same verse as the prohibition against shaving the beard. Just as the prohibition of shaving does not apply to women, so too this prohibition does not apply to women. See Kesef Mishneh, ibid.

[muman613]

KWRBT,

I do not claim to know exactly what length the peyot should be grown. It is a matter of custom. But the Torah clearly and unambiguously commands us not to shave the corners of the head... Do you agree with that at least?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

How is it possible?

Do you respond to me viscerally without reading what I write?

Do you purposely antagonize me personally for some reason?   

Do you have some vandetta?

Is your reading comprehension lacking?   

Please tell me what it is.   Tell me how this is possible.  I just don't understand it.

After I say (bold and underline added)

Of course, it is also documented facts that the Chassidic movement was a relatively recent innovation, and their use of the peyoth hairstyle was also a recent innovation added to Jewish culture.   On that point, the author is correct.  His speculation that they might have "copied" it from the Yemenites, could be correct or could not, but I would have to see some proof or circumstantial evidence to consider that possibility a likely one.  It could be an independent development which they themselves innovated to beautify a certain mitzvah we are all familiar with by now.  Or maybe he's right.[/u]   I would say that's worth looking into.   Would you agree?  Or are you scared of what might be found?   

That you reply to me with:

So the Ashkenaz Jews are not 'authentic' enough for you. So you think they copied the Yemenite customs? What evidence you have?

Your constant lying makes me sick to my stomach.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Maybe you don't consider Rambams Sefer HaMitzvot a reliable source?

From Rambams Sefer Hamitzvot: 43rd Prohibition

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940319/jewish/Negative-Commandment-43.htm


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940319/jewish/Negative-Commandment-43.htm

The 43rd prohibition is that we are forbidden from shaving1 the temples of our heads.

Shaving.

Do you know what Shaving means?

Stop the obfuscating!

[muman613]

No the 43rd prohibition is 'rounding the corners of the head', specifically shaving the peyot areas... Maybe you should get a copy of 'Sefer Hamitzvot' and study it...

There is a separate prohibition on shaving the beard..


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940320/jewish/Negative-Commandment-44.htm

The 44th prohibition is that we are forbidden from shaving the beard, which has five sections: the upper right jaw, the upper left jaw, the lower right jaw, the lower left jaw, and the chin.

This prohibition is contained in the following expression,1 "Do not destroy the corner of your beard," because all [the parts] are included in the term, "beard." Scripture does not write, "Do not destroy your beard," but, "Do not destroy the corner of your beard," meaning that one may not destroy even one corner from the entire beard.

The Oral Tradition explains that there are five corners, as we have categorized, and that one is punished by five sets of lashes if he shaves them all, even if he shaved them all at once. In the words of the Mishneh,2 "For [shaving] the beard [one receives] five [sets of lashes]: two for one side, two for the other side, and one for the bottom. Rabbi Eliezer says, 'If they were all shaved at once, one receives only one [set of lashes].'" The Talmud3 says, "We see that Rabbi Eliezer holds that it is all one prohibition." This is a clear proof that the first opinion holds that they constitute five separate prohibitions, and that is the law.

This [shaving of the beard] was also4 the practice of the idolatrous priests, as is well known today that among the adornments of the European ascetics5 is that they shave their beards.

It does not count as five separate commandments, since the prohibition is expressed in the singular ["beard"] and there is only one type of action, as we explained in the previous commandment.

The details of this mitzvah have been explained in the end of Makkos. This prohibition is also not binding upon women.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

I do not claim to know exactly what length the peyot should be grown. It is a matter of custom. But the Torah clearly and unambiguously commands us not to shave the corners of the head... Do you agree with that at least?

Why do you ask me something I have already said?   I quote myself for you now:

False.  Not one chacham believes this.   Not one.   The halachic requirement, which can be found in the writings of poskim, not by looking at people walking around on the street or looking at pictures, is that it not be shaved off (bald).   Leaving a tiny amount of hair suffices to fulfill this mitzvah.   Your statement is an obfuscation.

So now you are saying "you don't claim to know" which length.  Well, we are getting closer to a truthful conversation.  Inching ever so slowly.     It's ok that you do not know.  Because the poskim do know.   They set those parameters and it is very small amounts of hair.   Growing out long flowing peyoth is an innovation and not a requirement.      But let's be sure we are solid in the 613 mitzvoth and worry less about these extraneous matters.   Let's keep Shabbat, tefillin, Kashrut.    Teshuva is a long process.  I'm still working on it, myself.  I welcome you to join me in this process, although we cannot meet personally - Let's commit ourselves to doing mitzvot, very important mitzvot from the Torah, and let's focus on the internal not the external because it is the internal middoth which are the benchmark of our value as human beings and our obedience to the Torah, not outward appearances and black hats.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

No the 43rd prohibition is 'rounding the corners of the head', specifically shaving the peyot areas... Maybe you should get a copy of 'Sefer Hamitzvot' and study it...

LOL, what?  You just cited the 43rd prohibition, and you used chabad's translation in your previous post, WHICH I QUOTED in my response to, which they described as SHAVING.

Here, I will quote you now:

    Maybe you don't consider Rambams Sefer HaMitzvot a reliable source?

    From Rambams Sefer Hamitzvot: 43rd Prohibition

    http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940319/jewish/Negative-Commandment-43.htm


    http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940319/jewish/Negative-Commandment-43.htm

    The 43rd prohibition is that we are forbidden from shaving1 the temples of our heads.

Your words.  Chabad's words.

I simply responded to what you wrote.

I know that marring the beard and rounding the corners are different prohibitions.  I only responded to what you wrote.  Can't you see that?

I also know that rounding the corners is described by the halachic authorities (Jewish rabbis) that leaving a very small amount of hair suffices to avoid transgressing this prohibition.

[muman613]

So we agree that there is a commandment to not shave the peyot (the corners of the head)?

The length is the question.... And that is a matter of custom...

I can agree with that, and that is all I have been arguing about. It seemed to me you were arguing that it is not a prohibition to shave these hairs.

There are various opinions on what the length of these hairs should be. And as I posted in my first few responses Chabad doesn't advocate growing them long. Breslev on the other hand does. And I have no problem with this...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So we agree that there is a commandment to not shave the peyot (the corners of the head)?

The length is the question.... And that is a matter of custom...

I can agree with that, and that is all I have been arguing about. It seemed to me you were arguing that it is not a prohibition to shave these hairs.

You know that's not true.    This is not funny, muman.  I am not amused.   Quit your trolling.

It is very easy to get the wrong impression from what I say when you ASSUME things I never actually said.  Maybe you should learn from this experience and in the future, don't assume things that I didn't actually say.

[muman613]

Chabad Rabbi's Hair



Breslov Rabbi's Hair



And it seems to me this entire thread has been 'trollish'...

You stated it is not a mitzvot to grow peyot.... Rambam seems to differ in opinion..

[muman613]

KWRBT,

I only respond in a harsh tone when it seems to me you are speaking to me in a harsh tone. In my opinion you take things I write as a personal affront to you and your understanding. I certainly don't have any animosity towards you, and if I ever do it dissipates quickly.

It is one thing to say that there are differences of opinions concerning the length to grow your side-curls... It is entirely another mater to imply that doing so (growing them long) is imitating idolatrous practices...

[muman613]

Also regarding the 'black hat' dress... I don't know any commandment which Chabad or any other Chassidic sect claims as a basis for it. I know Chabad doesn't require those who join Chabad to dress that way. It is a personal choice of those who want to represent Chabad. They do not claim it is a commandment, only a Chassidic custom. Thus I don't think it is something to be worried about. I don't dress 'chabad style' myself.

Jews are diverse people. In my minyan we have all kinds, Chassidic Ashkenazim, Egyptian Sephardim, Persian Mizrachim, and others... I don't have any problem sitting next to a man who is davening from a Sephardic siddur while I am davening from a Artscroll Ashkenaz siddur... I realize that we all have unique customs and we all bring good to the Jewish people.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I found this pretty easily.    I wasn't going to post stuff like this, but you asked for it.

http://www.touregypt.net/egypt-info/magazine-mag07012000-mag4.htm
 
From within the article


"By the time of the New Kingdom, styles had become more sophisticated. Both sexes wore their hair longer. Flowers and ribbons were now used to decorate women's hair. One popular Upper Egyptian women's hairstyle was a closely shaven head with the exception of a few tufts of curls, a hair-do identified at the time as Nubian and still identified with that ethnic group.

Throughout, a distinctive hairstyle was reserved for children. The head was shaved completely with one long strand left on the side of the head, the so-called "sidelock of youth." This "s" shaped side lock served as the hieroglyphic symbol for child or youth. This style was worn by both girls and boys until the advent of puberty.


...An example of this style can be seen in images of the god Harpocrates, who is depicted with the distinctive sidelock, his finger to his lips, an Egyptian gesture indicating extreme youth, which was misunderstood by Greek interpreters who took it to mean silence or secrecy. The sidelock can also be viewed in the many depictions of the daughters of Akhenaton and Nefertiti; their hairstyles indicate their evolving age and inform us of the passage of time.

...
This hairstyle is generally accepted as solely indicating age. However, another insight may perhaps be gleaned from a hairstyle still current amongst some modern tribal African groups. Even today in traditional African societies, the appearance of one's hair can be used to create a social announcement. Some hair-do's for instance are reserved for married women or for women who have borne sons. The heads of small children are often shaved with one or more tufts remaining, similar to the Egyptian sidelock. The tuft is dedicated to a saint and exactly where the specific tuft is left indicates which saint has been invoked for the protection of the child. One can literally read the anxieties of the parent upon the child's head.

Very little in ancient Egypt seems random or at least not well thought out; hairstyles also can be interpreted for political significance. Joyce Tyldesley's biography, "Nefertiti: Egypt's Sun Queen" (Viking Books, 1999) analyzes the variety of that queen's hairstyles and how they indicate her shifting political role"


Yikes.

[muman613]

Those you mention are clearly not Peyot, the hairs on the side of the head, which are in front of the ears.

The single braid from the center of the head is a different style, and not similar to peyot...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You stated it is not a mitzvot to grow peyot.... Rambam seems to differ in opinion..

LOL, more lies.

But it is NOT a mitzvah to "Grow peyot."    The mitzvah is "Do not round the corners of your head."     And to fulfill that mitzvah requires leaving a small amount of hair.  I have never said otherwise.    You know you are purposely misleading with your above comment.  You are not being honest.
This entire discussion has been about the long peyot which are grown by Chassidim and some Yemenites.   To say otherwise now is to lie, plain and simple.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Those you mention are clearly not Peyot, the hairs on the side of the head, which are in front of the ears.

The single braid from the center of the head is a different style, and not similar to peyot...

LOL.   These are very similar and it's not always a single braid.  It's sometimes 2 side locks - read what it says.     The article says "the side of the head."

This is a source for what the rabbi was claiming which you said was a lie.    You demanded a source.  I provided one very easy to find through google.   You could probably do a lot more research but this is just to show you no one is making things up wholecloth.

[muman613]

Here is your 'sidelock of youth' picture...



Clearly this is different from peyot as Jews have grown them.

Throughout, a distinctive hairstyle was reserved for children. The head was shaved completely with one long strand left on the side of the head, the so-called "sidelock of youth." This "s" shaped side lock served as the hieroglyphic symbol for child or youth. This style was worn by both girls and boys until the advent of puberty.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here is your 'sidelock of youth' picture...



Clearly this is different from peyot as Jews have grown them.

Now, now Muman.  That's not the site I referenced.   All of a sudden you can find things on the internet so I don't have to provide you with sources that you claim don't exist?   

Although that is somewhat different than "peyot" you can't deny a similarity there  - the location the curling, etc.  and also a similarity in the "ritual" of cutting it off which some practice for little kids after 3 years cutting off their long hair.   

Plus this is the african not the ancient egyptian

[muman613]

Ok, we will have to agree to disagree because we are not making any headway.

The reason Jews grow peyot is because of the commandment (Negative 43 by Rambam) and also because of Kabbalistic understanding. It has nothing to do with idolatry... If you think it does, so be it... I have researched the topic and found that this practice has been a unique signifying feature of Jews throughout the last few centuries at least, and I have no reason to suspect any bad intent by our forefathers.

You can go and question all our customs and find that a lot of them are not 'ancient'. So too the custom of wearing Kippot is a relatively new custom. There is no biblical commandment to even wear them... Do you wear a kippah?

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/607780/jewish/The-Kippah-Skullcap.htm

A kippah (literally: dome) is the Hebrew word for skullcap, also referred to in Yiddish as a yarmulke, or less frequently as a koppel.

Jewish law requires men to cover their heads as a sign of respect and reverence for G‑d when praying, studying Torah, saying a blessing or entering a synagogue.

This practice has its roots in biblical times, when the priests in the Temple were instructed to cover their heads.

Traditionally, Jewish men and boys wear the kippah at all times, a symbol of their awareness of, and submission to, a "higher" entity.

Although it is not explicitly required by law, the practice is noted in the Talmud, and through the ages, this became an accepted Jewish custom to the point that according to the majority of halachic authorities, it is mandatory. One should, therefore, not walk or even sit, bareheaded. Small children should also be taught to cover their heads.

Aside from the commonblack kippah, many wear kippot (plural form of kippah) of various colors or designs. Some communities have developed kippah designs that are highly intricate works of art, such as those made by Jewish artisans from Yemen and Georgia, most of whom now live in Israel.

For more on the Kippah, click here and here.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

I only respond in a harsh tone when it seems to me you are speaking to me in a harsh tone.   

I honestly don't care about your tone.  I'm a big boy.  And I'm not fazed if you reply with personal angst.   You don't have to like me.  No one has to like me.   I don't have fragile emotions and really don't care.

What I demand from you is honesty.   It really ticks me off when you reply dishonestly. It's infuriating.  Or when you reply without reading what I wrote.  Or if you reply AS IF you haven't read what I wrote even though you did.  It makes a discussion impossible.

In my opinion you take things I write as a personal affront to you and your understanding.

It IS a personal affront when you put words in my mouth.

It IS a personal affront when you twist what I say.

It IS a personal affront when you reply with a comment that ignores what I just said to you directly in the previous post.   

Not an "affront to my understanding" because like I said I am not fragile, I really don't care if you challenge my thoughts or beliefs, go ahead and put a source and challenge me.  Call me an ignoramus if you like.  That's fair game.    I don't pretend I'm a big expert.   

Just cut the personal attacks which pretend I said things I never actually said.  Cut the dishonesty and game-playing.  Cut the playing dumb about what I might or might not believe, when I just wrote it 5 minutes ago telling you exactly what I believe.  It's these personal attacks and your attempts at "point-scoring" which make the discussion completely misleading and impossible to participate in.

[muman613]

Ok, I will not put words in your mouth but I will ask you this...

Because Ancient Idolatrous Egyptians would also grow beards.... Does that mean if a Jew grows a beard he is imitating ancient idolatrous practice....

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Ok, we will have to agree to disagree because we are not making any headway.

The reason Jews grow peyot is because of the commandment (Negative 43 by Rambam) and also because of Kabbalistic understanding. It has nothing to do with idolatry... If you think it does, so be it... I have researched the topic and found that this practice has been a unique signifying feature of Jews throughout the last few centuries at least, and I have no reason to suspect any bad intent by our forefathers.   

This is misleading language.   "Our forefathers?"  Do you refer to Abraham Isaac and Jacob?    They did not grow out chassidic payoth.

Why do you assume that if a practice has idolatrous origins or similarities with an idolatrous practice, that it necessarily means our "forefathers" (by this you mean our ancestors of a few hundred years ago right?) had bad intentions?     I would never claim such a thing.   If anything, if an idolatrous practice or the apeing of an idolatrous practice of a gentile neighbor found its way into Jewish culture, it was probably by accident and perpetuated long before any of these ancestors began to comment on it and consider it Jewish.   They were quite likely unaware of the origins of the custom.     And again, the similarities with idolatrous things doesn't even itself imply that that is the origin of the custom.   The origin is the gentile arab King of Yemen, and in turn, the Chassidic movement.  Either independently in two different periods of history, or with some interrelation that isn't proven.    Either way, no bad intentions on anyone's part (except the king of yemen).

You can go and question all our customs and find that a lot of them are not 'ancient'. So too the custom of wearing Kippot is a relatively new custom. There is no biblical commandment to even wear them... Do you wear a kippah?

I do wear a kippa.  I wear it to work and everywhere I go in public and in private.    But I also know that it is not required.  It is just a cultural custom of Jewish men.  I'm pretty sure that Rav Moshe writes that when indoors a person can consider the roof of the building as the head covering and kippa is redundant.   And there are many leniencies with regards to wearing it in the workplace, but I wear it anyway.

I know the kippa is not required, and I don't try to convince others that it is required.  I see it for what it is - a Jewish cultural practice of Jewish men.  I outwardly identify with that practice and Jewish culture and so I wear it.   It is a sign of respect to God.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Ok, I will not put words in your mouth but I will ask you this...

Because Ancient Idolatrous Egyptians would also grow beards.... Does that mean if a Jew grows a beard he is imitating ancient idolatrous practice....

No.  Silly question.

[muman613]

KWRBT,

So I really don't understand what the big deal is about peyot. Nobody goes around telling people they must grow them long. It is not like I suggest to every Jew who I meet that they are in violation of the commandments if they don't let them grow to a certain length. Now that we have discussed this I believe you know that we are not to shave these hairs (specifically with a razor) and it has become a custom within Chassidic and Yemenite cultures to grow them. So why is there an uproar about it? Why does the Rabbi who you respect feel a need to cast negativity on those who are keeping this custom which has support in Kabbalistic writings, and what is his solution?

I hope you understand I have no personal problem with discussing these matters with you.