Protest over 'gay hate' Islamic cleric's vist to university

[Super Mentalita]

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2129898_protest_over_gay_hate_islamic_clerics_vist_to_university

I don't support Gay marriage but i don't support hate against gay people!

Campaigners have hit out at the University of Reading for allowing a 'gay hate' Islamic preacher to address students.

Abu Usamah at-Thahabi is due to give a speech to the university's Muslim Society as part of its Discover Islam Week on Thursday night.

Anti-extremist group Student Rights has condemned the meeting and called on the university to review its decision to allow the controversial cleric on campus.

Protestors claim he has been caught making homophobic remarks including referring to gay people as "perverted, dirty, filthy dogs who should be murdered".

The Muslim cleric is also being accused of sexual harassment at the Birmingham mosque where he preaches.

According to Birmingham's Sunday Mercury, Mr At Thahabi, who is an imam at the Green Lane mosque in Sparkbrook is named in a website which claims to expose “sexual deviant preachers who prey on our Muslim sisters.”

The site alleges that it has been contacted by at least two female victims of the US-born convert.

The University of Reading has refused to give in to the demands insisting that it was committed to upholding both the right to free speech and lawful protest.

[Rubystars]

I also don't condone hatred or bullying of gay people, but unfortunately if you hold a traditional viewpoint in line with the Bible then you're going to get accused of that anyway. If a Christian or a Jew talks about what the Bible says in regards to homosexual behavior, then you will be labeled as someone who hates gay people. You will be accused of this even if your heart is in the right place as far as wanting to help these people. Personally I think the medical and psychological establishment has completely abandoned them and that's the real hate and intolerance, especially for those people with homosexual tendencies who don't want those tendencies and yet don't know how to control them.

These Muslims, on the other hand, often truly do hate gay people. I've been told directly on Pal Talk by Muslims that gay people should be thrown off of a cliff because that's the only way they'll go to heaven. The Christian way of repenting of the sin, seeking forgiveness through Jesus, and doing what it takes not to repeat the sinful actions, or the modern Jewish way of teshuva, are both much more peaceful.  Muslims really do want to murder gay people and really do HATE them, and offer no compassion or ways of reforming.

What makes this so hypocritical is that often in Muslim countries that Men will penetrate a little boy and victimize him, but they're not considered to be homosexual if they're the one doing the penetration. Also in the Muslim heaven the men get "pearls" which are virgin boys to sexually abuse.

So while being the most hateful toward homosexuals, Muslims are also the most hypocritical about the issue.

[Super Mentalita]

Great response Rubystars!

[Debbie Shafer]

I don't hate gay people, I only wish that they knew God's purpose for them.  Homosexual marriage is against God's laws and what he deems acceptable.

[Super Mentalita]

I don't hate gay people, I only wish that they knew God's purpose for them.  Homosexual marriage is against God's laws and what he deems acceptable.

Agree. G-d made us so we can make children. Enough said.

[muman613]

Religious Jews ordinarily do not HATE gays. We mostly feel sorry that they have been born in a time which challenges their inclinations. Every person, every man, every Jew has impulses which are not holy from time to time. And yet we are able to restrain ourselves from sinning. In todays 'permissive' life society has allowed every perversion under the sun to flourish. So people who grow up today will be especially confused about so called 'lifestyle' choices. To me homosexual lifestyle is sick, but I can understand how people may get caught up in such perversion. In my younger years I got caught up with all kinds of crazines (never this particular one) but thank Hashem I was able to live through that time, and see the error in my ways.

[muman613]

Well that's the first commandment, but there's a couple more. There's also this one about gay sex being an abomination and basically you have no part in the next world because you're one of the people that lives in a constant state of abnormal sin that makes you a detriment. You can also do good things, but none of them will make it go away.

Wait a minute... That is not what I understand. Who are you to say that a man who has homosexual tendencies, and may have succumbed to them, could not make Teshuva. And can you say with a source that his teshuva would not be accepted?

I have never heard it said anyone is 'condemned to eternal sin' by Hashem. If such a person feels those feelings and resists from acting on them, for which the sin according to Torah is only counted, then they are meritorious. As I said, I see it as a part of the challenge of life, being able to control more animal instincts in the best way for the continuation of the blessing of life.

[muman613]

Anyone can change something like that. It's an addiction that twists your mind like any other, and you can stop. I'm saying if you are currently a homo, you can donate a billion dollars to the little boys society, and it doesn't make you being a homo any less of that.

If you're referring to my other post on Ask, I'm not gay bro. That's really one on a small list of sins I haven't done.

112,

No I did not imply you were gay. I am saying that according to the belief I have learned, in Judaism a person whether he has sinned like this or by other ways, there is always a chance he can do Teshuva. He is never doomed to his own sin because we always place 'free will' above the animal instinct. Every human has the ability to overcome his challenges. I can bring several sources of Jewish wisdom which say that the cure is always created before the disease, and that redemption is always the goal of all suffering. Jewish faith sees Hashem as a loving father, who takes no pleasure in bringing suffering to us.

This is why I believe in this age, when we don't have the sanhedrin, and we are all sinners in one way or another. This is why we should always pray to Hashem in the manner of begging for things we don't deserve, rather than appealing to him for things we think we deserve. I do not think Hashem condemns those homosexuals who are able to avoid engaging in the forbidden activities. I do believe we are judged for EACH and EVERY sin we commit, but so too we are judged by every GOOD deed we have engaged in. Thus as long as we are alive we can change this judgement. These are concepts which we concentrate on during the week of Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur, the ten days of atonement.

Anyway, I am sorry if it appeared I was suggesting anything about you. I am just clarifying my understanding of how judgement works.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

  

[muman613]

No 112, you don't understand what I am saying.

He is responsible for every sin he made, and will face justice for it. His good deeds will not erase his sin... A person who makes sins with the intention of doing repentance is not forgiven, that is one of the laws of repentance...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/137090/jewish/Tzaddik-The-Baal-Teshuvah.htm

Perhaps by knowing this someone could say, “Great. Now I can go down to the hot dog stand, eat a few frankfurters, and make up for it by doing teshuvah later.” Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way. Anyone who says, “I will intentionally sin and then return to G-d later” is not given the opportunity to repent.18 A person can’t engage in the teshuvah process in a deceptive, self-serving manner. The essence of the baal teshu­vah’s return is the pure desire to rectify a previous wrong and return to his intrinsic connection to G-d. Can the one who sins in the present with the idea that he’ll repent later, in fact repent? If he is stubborn, yes. Nothing can stand in the way of teshuvah, and even for the worst sins in the Torah a person can repent. But in general, if one sins in order to repent, he will not be given the opportunity to do teshuvah.

[Dr. Dan]

I also don't condone hatred or bullying of gay people, but unfortunately if you hold a traditional viewpoint in line with the Bible then you're going to get accused of that anyway. If a Christian or a Jew talks about what the Bible says in regards to homosexual behavior, then you will be labeled as someone who hates gay people. You will be accused of this even if your heart is in the right place as far as wanting to help these people. Personally I think the medical and psychological establishment has completely abandoned them and that's the real hate and intolerance, especially for those people with homosexual tendencies who don't want those tendencies and yet don't know how to control them.

These Muslims, on the other hand, often truly do hate gay people. I've been told directly on Pal Talk by Muslims that gay people should be thrown off of a cliff because that's the only way they'll go to heaven. The Christian way of repenting of the sin, seeking forgiveness through Jesus, and doing what it takes not to repeat the sinful actions, or the modern Jewish way of teshuva, are both much more peaceful.  Muslims really do want to murder gay people and really do HATE them, and offer no compassion or ways of reforming.

What makes this so hypocritical is that often in Muslim countries that Men will penetrate a little boy and victimize him, but they're not considered to be homosexual if they're the one doing the penetration. Also in the Muslim heaven the men get "pearls" which are virgin boys to sexually abuse.

So while being the most hateful toward homosexuals, Muslims are also the most hypocritical about the issue.

Rubystars...Spot on.  One of the biggest mistakes our society ever made was to glorify bullying gays.  It's practically part of our culture.  Do we bully blind people and deaf people and mentally retarded people and people born without legs or arms.  No.  We help them get through with life by rebuilding and assisting them live a normal life.  People with dysfunctional behavior that can be helped deserve similar assistance to live as normal a life as possible.  Unfortunately American society, psychologists, and doctors have put homosexuals down by going about it the wrong way, in my opinion.

[Dr. Dan]

Agree. G-d made us so we can make children. Enough said.

but what about sterile men and women?  They aren't allowed to be on earth?  Or Chaim who isn't even married to have children? And what about sick men who rape women because they are supposed to have children?

Btw, this devil's advocate...Just because I made these statements doesn't mean I support homosexuality.  I just want to know what answer you would give.

[Dr. Dan]

Wait a minute... That is not what I understand. Who are you to say that a man who has homosexual tendencies, and may have succumbed to them, could not make Teshuva. And can you say with a source that his teshuva would not be accepted?

I have never heard it said anyone is 'condemned to eternal sin' by Hashem. If such a person feels those feelings and resists from acting on them, for which the sin according to Torah is only counted, then they are meritorious. As I said, I see it as a part of the challenge of life, being able to control more animal instincts in the best way for the continuation of the blessing of life.

Spot on.  This is what my wife and I believe.  Gd gives us all different tests and purposes in life and depending on how we act on those tests, we are rewarded or punished accordingly.

[Dr. Dan]

OK bro, you say sorry when you did something stupid. If I misunderstood your post, then just say so, but it's not like I'm crying over here.

Let's get something straight then. Big rich fag, likes being gay, talks about being gay and promotes it and everything else, but he gives 90% of his income to the little boys' society. Is there a scale balance at the end and he gets in because that erases it, or is that only for people that refrain from doing it, that may or may not have something in their head telling them to have gay sex with other men.

I don't know if there is an exact formula, but to put something in perspective there are two types of sins:  Ones against fellow men/women and ones again Gd. 
The sins one makes against fellow men/women require their forgiveness.  Murder is not a forgivable crime since a dead person can't say, "I forgive you."  But a Jew who eats unkosher, then says, "Sorry" to Gd and then never eats unkosher again is forgivable since it's Gd we are dealing with.

But if you have a murderer rapist eating Kosher as much as he's raping and murdering, it doesn't balance anything out.  And Gd, our defending Angels and Satan (the prosecuting Angel), really do the balancing to decide our punishment and reward in the afterlife. 

(I'm assuming this is the Jewish perspective...I think I might be close).

[Spiraling Leopard]

Europe will accept Islam so long as it doesn't have to give up gays.

Wrong. Muslims get favoured over gays.

[muman613]

I understand everything. I already know that a good deed does not erase a sin, but in my opinion, if you are gay and you won't repent or stop doing it and never do, then whether you give a 100% of your money to little boys or not, you have no part in the next world. Am I correct?

True repentance is only accepted if a person is in the same situation and he chooses not to sin.

http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/LORch3-14b.html

We are now up to the Rambam's final point in this chapter. After listing the most heinous types of sinners who lose their share in the World to Come, the Rambam concludes on a more positive note. He states that nothing stands in the way of repentance. Even the worst sinner, who vehemently denied the existence of G-d his entire life, can still return. G-d awaits his repentance till the very last moment. He created the world for the express purpose of granting man the opportunity of coming close to Him. And He waits till man's final moments to give him that chance.

The Rambam made a very similar point earlier, in Chapter 2, Law 1. There he stated that true repentance is being in precisely the same situation as when one sinned in the past and even so not repeating. For example, if one sinned with a woman and later finds himself in the exact same setting with the same person and they feel the same about each other, and even so he resists, he is a true repenter. (See our discussion there -- one should most certainly not test his new resolve by recreating the scene of the crime.) To that the Rambam concluded that even though such is the ideal repentance, if one repents in his old age when he can no longer do the same sins he used to, it is considered repentance and his sins are forgiven.

[muman613]

Obviously every instance of sin which this hypothetical gay sinner makes he is responsible for. And every sin made by those who he perverts. So thus the character you propose is in a very difficult position if he ever expects to make 'Teshuva/Repentance'...

[Dr. Dan]

I understand everything. I already know that a good deed does not erase a sin, but in my opinion, if you are gay and you won't repent or stop doing it and never do, then whether you give a 100% of your money to little boys or not, you have no part in the next world. Am I correct?

I'll give a better example. A gay man who is a doctor and saves lives.  On judgement day he will answer for both things.

If you speed at 60 mph in a 25 mph zone and get caught you lose your license or do time. And sometimes you get away with it. But what are the odds you'll get away with a crime like that if you do it everyday? 

The same is true of any sin.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Of course it is wrong to go about bullying gays, but the NWO has made very clear that it considers any lack of acceptance of the sodomitic lifestyle to be "bullying".

[cjd]

Europe will accept Islam so long as it doesn't have to give up gays.

A good part of Europe has given up to both issues many moons ago.

[Rubystars]

Of course it is wrong to go about bullying gays, but the NWO has made very clear that it considers any lack of acceptance of the sodomitic lifestyle to be "bullying".

That's the real problem. I was re-reading the post I made and I thought how a liberal would react to it. They would be thinking that my post was 1. ignorant 2. hateful. They wouldn't care that I was against bullying or harming of gay people. They would only think I was being hateful toward gays and Muslims. Sometimes it's hard to know how a liberal's mind works and other times it's easy to analyze what they would think.

I still can't understand how someone who seems to be nice to other people in daily life, and considers themselves to be a good person, can think that abortion is ok. Especially looking at pictures of development from month to month and what a baby looks like at say, 8 weeks, or 10 weeks, etc. with a human face already.

I still don't get how they can look at pictures of someone like Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama, Yassir Arafat, Che Guevera, Hillary Clinton, Ellen DeGeneres, or Sarah Silverman and somehow feel inspired by these people and really, truly, admire them for their so-called accomplishments. The only way I can understand that is that liberals must have a much weaker gag reflex.

I still can't understand why they think taking guns away from law-abiding people is going to help protect us from criminals with guns who don't follow gun laws anyway.