Author Topic: Meat and milk?  (Read 3704 times)

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Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Meat and milk?
« on: April 27, 2013, 11:04:06 PM »
Why can you eat fish and milk but not beef and milk? The Torah says not to cook a kid in it's mothers milk, so how does that have anything to do with mixing meat and milk?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2013, 11:12:57 PM »
Fish is a different category than meat. (and by the way not all do this but their are many Sefardim especially who don't eat them together but only for health reasons).
 Meat and milk some of the reasons is because not to mix Chessed (milk) and Cruelty together. When a cow (or any female species) is milked they are relieved of pain. When an animal is killed they suffer (no matter how much it is tried to cause as little pain as possible).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2013, 11:37:48 PM »
So... A Jew can not drink a glass of milk and eat beef together, right? What about chicken and sauce, that may have milk in it?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2013, 01:59:05 AM »
No chicken either because chicken falls into the category of meat.

.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2013, 02:04:52 AM »
The Torah says 3 times Do not cook a גדי in the milk of its mother.
The sages understood that גדי are all types of kosher animals that drink from their mother's milk.
Birds which do not drink from their mother's milk aren't forbidden by Torah law, to be eaten with milk but are forbidden by rabbinic law with the thought that if we permit bird meat and milk some people might come to eat beef with milk.
While the Torah verse stresses just the prohibition of cooking milk with  גדי according to one view the Rabbis deduced from the special laws on how to interpret the Torah that the prohibition extends to eating. Another view brought by Rashi, views Dvarim/Deut.14:3 as the source of the eating prohibition.
Gentiles who observe the Noachide Laws are not obligated to keep this commandment.

Offline Sveta

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2013, 03:04:31 AM »
Edu is right. Dairy and poultry is a Rabbinical prohibition. While no Meat and Dairy is a Torah prohibition. Rabbinical prohibition being completely valid, as the Torah states that people must follow the Rabbinical rulings.
Dairy and poultry cause the trouble that people (both Jews and Gentiles) may be confused over what goes with milk and what doesn't. Or gentiles may mock at seeing a religious Jew having poultry and dairy, saying how he is breaking the rules of no dairy with meat. By contrast, a Jew may think because dairy and poultry are ok, then meat and dairy can't be bad. Thus, to end the confusion, all meat and poultry must not go with dairy products, nor should there be any benefit from such a mixture.
So no creamy chicken Alfredo. No creamy mashed potatoes with fried chicken.

Regarding fish and dairy, it does depend on the custom. Personally, I have never met anyone who does not mix the two. I think there are rules that make it ok (such as not mixing fish with milk... but just having fish with "dairy products"-which contain milk. In other words, technically not really eating fish with actual milk). If it were actually "no fish with dairy" there would be no beloved tradition of bagels, cream cheese and lox.

Speaking of prohibitions, no fish and meat. I never did them together because I thought it was nasty to have meat and fish at the same time. But I had no idea it was an actual prohibition until a few months ago.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 03:16:04 AM by IsraeliHeart »

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2013, 03:24:40 AM »
This is yet another example why you must refer to the oral Torah to see how to actually imply the commandment.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2013, 02:40:53 PM »
The Torah prohibition only refers to the cooked mixture of the meat from a member of the cow, sheep, and goat family together with the milk of any of those 3 animals. So chicken and milk is only Rabbinic as is deer and milk. Also cow milk with deer meat is only Rabbinic. The Biblical prohibition prohibits cooking such a mixture, eating it, and benefiting from it. Eating cold meat and milk is only Rabbinic. The rabbis extended the the ban to all meat and milk for eating and possibly cooking. Benefiting is only for the Biblical prohibtions. So you can feed your cat chicken or dairy or even pork and dairy.

That also means that if a Jew eats pork and dairy, he is violating the prohibition of eating pork and of eating non-kosher milk. But no extra prohibition exists between pork and dairy because pork is prohibited in the first place so the rabbis didn't add extra prohibitions.


Offline edu

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2013, 03:41:32 AM »
Binyamin Yisrael you are correct that the Shulchan Aruch in Yoreh Deah 87:3 rules that deer meat which falls under the category of "Chaya" is only forbidden to eat with milk as a rabbinic decree.
Rashi (as understood by Mizrachi) however, in his commentary to Shmot/Exodus 34:26 understands that the Torah prohibition includes even "Chaya" such as deer meat but not bird meat.
Mizrachi understands Rashi that in that section of the Torah, Rashi  is interpreting the text according to the viewpoint of the Tanna Rabbi Yosi Haglili. It is interesting to note that Mizrachi points out in his commentary to Shmot/Exodus 23:19 that Rashi when he comments on Devarim/Deut. 14:21 brings the opposing opinion of the Tanna, Rabbi Akiva who excludes Chaya, such as deer meat from the Torah prohibition.
It is also interesting to note that Rambam in one place (Mamrim 2:9) brings the opinion of Rabbi Yosi Haglili that deer meat (chaya) is forbidden with milk by Torah law while in Hilchot Maachalot Asurot 9:4 he takes the Rabbi Akiva approach that chaya meat (such as deer) is not forbidden by Torah law with milk, (it is only forbidden of a rabbinic level).
Commentaries on the Rambam, seem to indicate that Rambam really rules in accordance to what he wrote in Hilchot Maachalot Asurot 9:4 (the Rabbi Akiva opinion) and there was a side issue that made him quote the opinion of Rabbi Yosi Haglili in the other source that I brought.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2013, 08:23:53 PM »
Why the emphasis on Rabbinical law vs Torah law?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2013, 08:59:37 PM »
Why the emphasis on Rabbinical law vs Torah law?

Because Torah law cannot be argued against, while a Rabbinic ordinance can be changed by the sages...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2013, 10:02:54 PM »
See this site for an explanation of the differences between Torah commands, Gezirot, and Rabbinic laws...

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/halakhah.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: Meat and milk?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2013, 01:32:13 AM »
Quote
Why the emphasis on Rabbinical law vs Torah law?
Some of the reasons to make the distinction [but not all of them].
  • We find it of value to differentiate between what G-d did or did not command us directly, since that gives us better insight of his will.
  • The Rabbis built in certain leniencies to Rabbinical law that you don't have in Torah law.
  • Punishment for violation, as well as to what extent one has to give rebuke to sinners is affected by the status of the action as a Torah vs Rabbinic Law.
  • In certain situations misidentification of a Rabbinic Law as a Torah Law might lead some individuals to reject the law entirely.