Noah's raven and dove

[Rubystars]

When Noah let the raven go, what happened to it? Why did it not come back to the ark when the dove couldn't find a place to rest and came back? Am I reading this wrong?

From the text it seems that he let the raven go, and the raven kept flying around and didn't return to the ark. However when Noah let the dove go, it flew around and could find no place to rest and returned to Noah, and then he let the dove go again and it came back with an olive branch, and then he let the dove go again and it didn't return.

Why did the raven find somewhere to go and didn't return but the dove had to return?

Is it this translation that makes it confusing?

Are ravens just more intelligent than doves? This seems to hold true in nature anyway. Ravens have been demonstrated to be great puzzle solvers and even to be able to imitate human speech, while I've observed doves to walk nearly up to cats before they realize they are there.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Genesis-Chapter-8/

[muman613]

Very interesting question Rubystars... Indeed I have heard an explanation for this. Let me see if I can find a reference to this explanation....

Here are some articles which discuss the Jewish perspective, according to Midrash (Oral tradition), on this episode.

http://www.tfdixie.com/parshat/noach/012.htm

THE RAVEN

by Daniel Lasar     
Torah from Dixie Staff Writer   

"And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made. He sent out the raven, and it kept going and returning until the drying of the waters from upon the earth."

     



"And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made. He sent out the raven, and it kept going and returning until the drying of the waters from upon the earth. And he sent out the dove from him to see whether the water had subsided from the face of the ground." (Genesis 8:6-8).

Did you ever read this passage and wonder, "Why did Noah send the raven?" Seemingly, it didn’t accomplish anything. The narrative would’ve flowed just fine without its mention. However, as will be developed further, the episode of the raven has much to teach us.

Rashi, the preeminent Torah commentator, explains that initially, Noah was intent on sending the raven to search for dry land. However, the raven was hovering around the ark instead. Why did it refuse to go on the expedition? According to the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 108b), the raven refused to go because it was concerned for the preservation of its species. It challenged Noah along these lines: "I am hated because seven of the clean species were taken in the ark, while only two of the unclean (of which the raven is considered; see Leviticus 11:15.) were granted refuge. Yet you choose to send me out!" It reasoned that were harm to come to it during a reconnaissance flight, there would only be the female left of its kind. (According to the Maharal of Prague, one of the seminal figures of Jewish thought of the last five centuries, Noah did not actually speak with the raven, rather he intuited from the raven’s refusal to leave that it was instinctively concerned for the preservation of its kind.)

The Talmud states that the raven gave a second reason for refusing to go: "Or perhaps you need my wife!" To which Noah replied, "Wicked one! Relations with my wife are forbidden in the ark, all the moreso with a female of a prohibited species!" Pretty deep stuff here.

The Ohr Hachaim, the classic 18th century Kabbalist and Talmudic scholar, explains that those who accuse someone of a blemish, possess that blemish themselves. Thus, Noah inferred from the raven’s accusation that it had had relations with its mate while on the ark, something that all creatures were forbidden to engage in during the flood (see Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 108b). Because of this indiscretion, Noah wasn’t sending the raven on any mission, rather he was kicking it off the boat! This explanation comports with the Torah’s reference to the dove’s actually searching for dry land, while no such reason is proffered for the raven’s departure. The Torah further relates that Noah took the dove back in, but no similar action is stated concerning the raven. Apparently, it was evicted from the ark for bad behavior!

According to a fascinating midrash, Noah answers the raven’s concern for self-preservation by castigating it, saying that it serves no purpose, and is therefore expendable. However, G-d interjects and remonstrates Noah that indeed, the raven does have a purpose--it was prepared for another mission, during the days of Elijah the prophet. To reproach the people and their wicked King Ahab, Elijah decreed a drought upon the land, whereupon no rain fell. G-d instructs Elijah to journey to the desert: "It shall be that you will drink from the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to supply you with food there." Thereafter, ravens brought Elijah nourishment. (I Kings 17:4-6).

This, then, is the meaning of the Torah’s statement that Noah’s raven "kept going and returning until the drying of the waters." The raven’s calling was ultimately fulfilled when the rains "dried up" during Elijah’s era.

But why was it crucial that ravens were sent to assist Elijah? Our tradition informs us that the raven is an intrinsically unkind creature. According to the Be’er HaTorah, a classic commentary, it would not have been in consonance with its nature for the raven to announce good tidings to the ark’s inhabitants that the flood waters had receded. However, it would be entirely appropriate for the raven to facilitate Elijah’s bringing a famine to the people by sustaining him. Thus, cruel creatures assisted in Elijah’s "cruelty".

The Yalkut Lekach Tov, a contemporary digest of insights on the weekly Torah portion, offers a different explanation as to why ravens were Elijah’s sustainers. There are two possible reactions toward one who sins: (1) destroy him (this was Noah’s approach in kicking out the raven) or (2) win him over. The Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 37a) describes how Rabbi Zeira went out of his way to champion the cause of a group of ruffians, befriending them in order to get them to change their ways. These lowlifes were basically dismissed by the community, but the rabbi was their advocate, praying for mercy on their behalf. When he died, they mourned him exceedingly and repented.

Elijah didn’t utilize this approach. Instead, he exhibited a more stringent posture toward the people. Hashem arranged it so that the "cruel" ravens would come to Elijah’s rescue. Elijah would be able to take note that even "wicked" creatures can do good, reasoning that if ravens could provide help to another, surely there is good within the sinners of the Jewish people. If the raven could be compassionate, all the moreso should he be compassionate. Only the raven could powerfully demonstrate to Elijah the importance of being merciful towards the wicked. Hence, the raven is Hashem’s tool for rebuking the prophet and hinting to him to "lighten up" on the people.

Many times, we begrudgingly view those who are less this-and-that as possessing less value. Not true. Just because someone is less religious, less intelligent, or less successful does not make him more expendable. There is no concept of triage in interpersonal relationships. We all need to feel loved. We all need to be smiled at. We all need a hug.

The raven felt that because it was in the "unclean" group it had been wrongly singled out for its insignificance. For its moral shortcomings Noah was willing to expel it from the ark. Whether in dealings with family, friends, teachers, students, and even strangers, we need to recognize that everybody has a purpose. We are not to summarily dismiss those who don’t meet our expectations. We don’t kick them out of the boat. The raven teaches us to be merciful, patient, and forgiving toward others. Even if they do wrong, we must love them, reach out to them, and be compassionate to them. Everybody is important. The raven reminds us of the famous saying of our sages (Ethics of Our Fathers 4:3): "Do not be scornful of any person, and do not be disdainful of any thing, for you have no person without his hour and you have no thing without its place."



Daniel Lasar, an alumnus of Emory Law School in Atlanta, writes from New Jersey.

http://theyeshiva.net/Video/View/49/The-Raven-The-Dove
The Raven & The Dove
The Flood Recedes and Noah Sends Out a Raven Followed by a Dove. Why These Two Birds? And What Does This Story Tell Us of the Journey Necessary for people Recovering from Personal “Floods?” When Cynicism Replaces Innocence

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/122/Q2/

Raven Maven
Kalman Estrin wrote:

In a conversation a few months ago, a friend raised the following question. The RAVEN is specifically identified in the story of Noah as the first bird that Noah sends out in search of land. The Raven is also given special prominence in the dietary laws concerning which birds are clean and which are not. Is there a special significance and symbolism connected to the raven?

Dear Kalman Estrin,

Noah sent the raven to find out the state of the world. Since the raven is a bird of prey, it would return with carrion of man or beast if the water had abated to that degree. The raven failed, however, flying back and forth time after time.

Why did Noah send a raven specifically? According to the Talmud, Hashem forbade procreation on the Ark, but the raven violated this prohibition. Therefore, Noah reasoned that of all the birds, the raven was the safest one to send out on this dangerous mission. That way, if the raven didn't survive it wouldn't mean the extinction of its species.

Also, the ancients considered the raven a portent of the future. They would build special cages where the priests would study the motions and flying formations of the ravens. They interpreted these movements as divinations of the future. In this sense, the raven's mission was successful, since Noah could discern from the raven's flying patterns something about the future.

Also, the raven reminds us of Hashem's kindness to even the most helpless of creatures. How? Ravens are cruel to their young, leaving them to die of starvation. But Hashem has mercy on them, and provides them with insects to eat. Thus, sending the raven may have been Noah's way of asking Hashem "Please provide for us, just as you provide for the poor helpless young ravens."

Sources:

Tractate Sanhedrin 108b
Tractate Ketubot 49b
Malbim

http://www.chabad.org/global/popup/default_cdo/aid/2595/jewish/The-Window.htm

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/1985087/jewish/Selfish-as-a-Raven.htm

[muman613]

Ravens and Doves
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/323/Q2/


From: Bill Thompson in Riverside California
Dear Rabbi,
Why, if Noah released the raven, breaking the pair, how did ravens return to populate? After all, didn't one mate "disappear?"

Dear Bill Thompson,
The raven didn't do its appointed task; rather, it flew "back and forth (from the ark) until the drying of the water from the land." (Genesis 8:7) So, the pair was never broken up.

Furthermore, the female raven may have already been "pregnant" with a fertilized egg. Some indeed suggest that, knowing this, Noach chose specifically the raven.

As for the dove, which did fly away, the verse says that Noach took seven of each kosher species of bird aboard the ark; thus, there was no concern of doves dying out, as there were six left.

Still, I have heard a midrash to the effect that this dove was reunited with its mate after all the birds were released from the ark.

Sources:

Genesis 7:2,3; Rashi, ibid.
Genesis 8:12
See Tikunei Zohar, Esrin V'chad V'esrin, 58b
 
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[Rubystars]

Thanks Muman. I always really liked Ravens. I think they're really interesting creatures. I think since God chose them to feed Elijah that they were created with a special holy purpose from the beginning. Also in more mundane aspects, because they eat carrion and kill pests like rodents, they also prevent a lot of disease in the world both among humans and animals.

[Zelhar]

When Noah let the raven go, what happened to it? Why did it not come back to the ark when the dove couldn't find a place to rest and came back? Am I reading this wrong?

From the text it seems that he let the raven go, and the raven kept flying around and didn't return to the ark. However when Noah let the dove go, it flew around and could find no place to rest and returned to Noah, and then he let the dove go again and it came back with an olive branch, and then he let the dove go again and it didn't return.

Why did the raven find somewhere to go and didn't return but the dove had to return?

Is it this translation that makes it confusing?

Are ravens just more intelligent than doves? This seems to hold true in nature anyway. Ravens have been demonstrated to be great puzzle solvers and even to be able to imitate human speech, while I've observed doves to walk nearly up to cats before they realize they are there.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Genesis-Chapter-8/

Ravens are more intelligent then doves, I think they are also better flyers so can can travel higher and longer distances. Aside from that they have a different pattern of behaviour. Doves tend to stick to their nests and if they have nested on the Ark they will return to the nest.

As for ravens, I have watched in "the Vikings" (I believe it is a true fact though) that they kept ravens on their long ships and set them loose and watch the direction the raven flew. The raven would fly at the shortest way towards land if he could see land at all. If there was no land he would return to the ship.

[Rubystars]

Ravens are more intelligent then doves, I think they are also better flyers so can can travel higher and longer distances. Aside from that they have a different pattern of behaviour. Doves tend to stick to their nests and if they have nested on the Ark they will return to the nest.

As for ravens, I have watched in "the Vikings" (I believe it is a true fact though) that they kept ravens on their long ships and set them loose and watch the direction the raven flew. The raven would fly at the shortest way towards land if he could see land at all. If there was no land he would return to the ship.

That's pretty cool. Thanks for the information. I think the Vikings liked ravens because they associated them with their false pagan deity though but it is a good example of using them for a similar purpose.

[Rubystars]

I've got another question. How could there be clean and unclean animals if the kosher laws had not yet been given?

Someone I was watching on a video said that clean animals were those who had not yet given birth because blood had not been spilled during the birth process or something like that.

Now, I'd never heard it that way before, and I'd always assumed for some reason that clean and unclean meant kosher and un-kosher, but even according to modern Judaism, Noachides are not required to eat kosher food, and it doesn't appear that the kosher laws were revealed in Noah's time yet.

So what does clean and unclean animals mean in this story?

[Zelhar]

I've got another question. How could there be clean and unclean animals if the kosher laws had not yet been given?

Someone I was watching on a video said that clean animals were those who had not yet given birth because blood had not been spilled during the birth process or something like that.

Now, I'd never heard it that way before, and I'd always assumed for some reason that clean and unclean meant kosher and un-kosher, but even according to modern Judaism, Noachides are not required to eat kosher food, and it doesn't appear that the kosher laws were revealed in Noah's time yet.

So what does clean and unclean animals mean in this story?

Until the the flood the righteous people didn't eat meat at all except perhaps for sacrifice. Only "pure" or "clean" animal could be sacrificed to god. Jews believe that even before the Torah the line from Adam to Noah to Jacob actually had known and practiced all the commandments. In exile in Egypt it was forgotten.

So Noah himself wouldn't eat non-kosher animal and the ark stock was meant to provide for Noah and his family and for sacrifices for God. If there were other survivers not from the ark they would eat what they wanted and had available. As did The descendants that are not from the direct line from Noah to Abraham.

Specifically it is mentioned that Noah's son, Shem and his great grandson Eber had a study house in Mesopotamia. Because they had such a longer life span then succeeding generations, they were both still alive at the time of Jacob ! The calculation is very easy because the Torah gives for each member of this line his age when he beget his successor and his age he was when died.

See for example:
http://www.yeshiva.co/midrash/shiur.asp?id=6470

[Rubystars]

Thanks Zelhar.

[edu]

The Chafetz Chaim in his Likutei Halachot on chapter 14 of Zevachim, rules that Non-Jews are allowed to build an altar anywhere in the world and offer animal sacrifices even in our days (if done properly) although Jews can only offer sacrifices in our times on the Temple Mount (and the Jews have to abide by additional restrictions that do not apply to  Gentiles in this matter).
However, non Jews have to offer from the tahor animals or birds(commonly translated as pure or clean) and not the tamei (impure or unclean) animals or birds.
Given this introduction there was a need for No'ach (Noah) to know what were the tahor animals in order to bring a proper sacrifice.

[Rubystars]

The Chafetz Chaim in his Likutei Halachot on chapter 14 of Zevachim, rules that Non-Jews are allowed to build an altar anywhere in the world and offer animal sacrifices even in our days (if done properly) although Jews can only offer sacrifices in our times on the Temple Mount (and the Jews have to abide by additional restrictions that do not apply to  Gentiles in this matter).
However, non Jews have to offer from the tahor animals or birds(commonly translated as pure or clean) and not the tamei (impure or unclean) animals or birds.
Given this introduction there was a need for No'ach (Noah) to know what were the tahor animals in order to bring a proper sacrifice.

I think what confuses me about this whole topic was trying to figure out how he knew which ones were clean and which were unclean. When was this knowledge originally given? It was apparently lost at some point and was given again during Moses' time if that's the case. If it was lost though how did the original story survive at all and the concept that there might have been unclean and clean animals way back before then?

Sorry if this involves too many questions. It's just something that's interesting to me. There's a lot of the Bible dedicated to purity and cleanliness and so I think this must be a very important topic to understand.