Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 5338 times)

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Offline Dan Ben Noah

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Shalom
« on: November 30, 2012, 08:13:53 PM »
Shalom
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 10:07:20 PM by Dan Ben Noah »
Jeremiah 16:19 O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail!

Zechariah 8:23 So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

Offline muman613

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Re: Rambam's Mishneh Torah: Book of Holiness: Forbidden Foods
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2013, 11:28:35 PM »
Quote
It is forbidden [to benefit from] any wine that a gentile touches;8for perhaps he poured it as a libation. For the thought of a gentile is focused on the worship of false deities.9 From this, we learn that it is forbidden to benefit [even from] wine belonging to a Jew which was touched by a gentile; it is governed by the laws that apply to ordinary gentile wine.

Dan, it is because of these laws a religious Jew is really not permitted to even eat with Gentiles, and these laws I find among some of the hardest to keep in a social environment. Many times I am invited to lunches with non-Jews and I always find myself wondering which of these laws would be broken by attending such lunches... Even if what I ate was kosher, worrying about whether it was prepared by an idol worshipper makes it extremely hard.

I believe all these Halachas are brought down from Talmudic sources and I believe I have heard some of these sources.

As a Noachide I don't think you could relate to the restrictions caused by some of these laws.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Rambam's Mishneh Torah: Book of Holiness: Forbidden Foods
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2013, 11:31:06 PM »
Rabbi Mansour of Daily Halacha discusses these laws:

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=2016

Setam Yenam – The Prohibition Against Drinking the Wine of Non-Jews

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/HalachaClips/2016.mp3

The Ben Ish Hai (Rav Yosef Haim of Baghdad, 1833-1909), in Parashat Balak (1), discusses the Halachot relevant to the prohibition against drinking the wine of non-Jews (listen to audio recording for precise citation). He writes that according to Torah law, the only wine that is forbidden is Yayin Nesech, meaning, wine that was used as part of an idolatrous religious service. The Torah compares wine poured for a pagan deity to a pagan sacrifice, and it is therefore forbidden just like something that was offered as a sacrifice to an idol. The Ben Ish Hai emphasizes that Yayin Nesech is forbidden both for drinking and for any other kind of benefit.

The Sages, however, expanded this prohibition to include Setam Yenam, any wine owned by gentiles. Furthermore, they forbade even Jewish wine that was touched by a gentile. The reason given for these enactments is that the Sages wanted to prevent Jewish men from engaging in close social contact with gentile women, which could lead to promiscuity or even intermarriage. However, the Ben Ish Hai writes, this is not the primary reason for the prohibition of Setam Yenam. The real reason, he asserts, involves deep Kabbalistic concepts that the Sages understood with their keen spiritual insight. According to Kabbalistic teaching, there is something inherent in the wine of non-Jews that renders it forbidden for Jews, and this is the primary reason for the prohibition. The Sages chose not to disclose the Kabbalistic origins of this Halacha, and so they instead gave a simple reason that even the unlearned masses could understand – the interest in avoiding close social contact with gentile women.

For this reason, the Ben Ish Hai adds, the prohibition of Setam Yanam will always apply, even if the stated reason becomes irrelevant. If, at some point, circumstances arise that obviate the concern of close social contact, it would nevertheless still be forbidden to partake of the wine of non-Jews.

The prohibition of Setam Yenam applies to both drinking and deriving other kinds of benefit from the wine of non-Jews. However, when it comes to non-Jews who are not idolaters, their wine – or the wine of Jews that they touch – is forbidden only for drinking. Other forms of benefit are not forbidden unless the gentile who owns or touched the wine worships idols. Accordingly, the Ben Ish Hai writes, it is permissible to derive benefit from the wine of Moslems, who, as the Rambam (Rabbi Moshe Maimonides, Spain-Egypt, 1135-1204) ruled in one of his responsa, are not considered idolaters. Moslems believe in a single Creator, and are therefore not considered idolaters. Wine that they own or touched is thus forbidden only for drinking; other forms of benefit are permissible. The Ben Ish Hai notes that this is also the position taken by the Arizal (Rav Yishak Luria of Safed, 1534-1572).

The Ben Ish Hai discusses in this context the status of non-Jews who bow before articles in their houses of worship, and notes that they are considered idolaters, and their wine is forbidden for any kind of benefit. The concept of God’s unity in their thought is not pure unity, and rather constitutes “Shituf” (the belief in a “partnership” of deities), and they are thus considered idolaters with respect to the laws of Setam Yenam. Therefore, all kinds of benefit are forbidden from wine owned or touched by a believing idolaters.

The Ben Ish Hai in this context emphasizes the severity of this prohibition against partaking of the wine of gentiles. He makes reference to work on this topic called Yayin Ha’meshumar, a 19th-century work by Rav Natan Shapiro, and says that a person’s “hair stands up” when he reads in this book of the unique gravity of this prohibition. The Ben Ish Hai also mentions the work “Ayuma Ka’nidgalot” which (on p. 24) tells a frightening story of the grave consequences of violating this Halacha. This prohibition is so severe, the Ben Ish Hai writes, that a person who violates this law “uproots his soul from the place where it is rooted, and he has no share in the world to come.” Furthermore, there are some authorities who maintain that a person must avoid the wine of non-Jews even at the risk of death. According to this view, if a doctor advises a Jewish patient that he must drink a certain wine to save his life, he should surrender his life rather than drink the wine. It does not appear that Halacha follows this opinion, but the fact that some authorities issued such a ruling demonstrates the severity with which this prohibition is treated.

Summary: It is forbidden to drink wine that is owned by a non-Jew, or that was touched by a non-Jew. If the non-Jew is somebody who has the status as an idolater – such as one who bows before an article in their house of worship – then the wine is forbidden for drinking and for any other kind of benefit.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Rambam's Mishneh Torah: Book of Holiness: Forbidden Foods
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2013, 11:48:38 PM »
Well non-Jews are allowed to attend Jewish functions, for example I've never had a problem doing kidush and the Shabbat meal with Chabad after Shabbat services, and I have eaten at Jewish holiday celebrations also.  But Jews are not allowed to eat in Gentiles' homes.

As a Noahide I am not restricted by these laws, but as a potential Jew I think I would be able to conform to the restrictions.  The only thing that I don't like about it is not being able to eat in my family's home anymore, but that's not such a big deal anymore because due to being in the Navy I live so far away from my family that I hardly ever eat with them anyway.  I really don't care about Gentile social functions, I'd rather keep kosher.


Yasher Koach to your conversion... I can see how it would be hard to eat with your family though.

And you are correct, there is nothing wrong with Chabad functions where non-Jews drink the wine brought by Chabad. My Rabbi gets some of the best wines because we know some Kosher Wine producers in Napa (one of the best wine producers in America). So this law doesn't prevent Jews from socializing so much as it prevents a Jew from attending a non-Jewish function and drinking the wine.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14