Shalom

[muman613]

She did know the basic concept behind Bnei Noah, although she hadn't met one before me.  She didn't seem to really value having one around, even though it is kind of rare to come across us, because she was content to trample all over belief in Torah, taking sides with atheists (because Deform kikery is a denomination of atheism, not Judaism) and referring to actual Torah belief as "the Christian way of thinking about it".  I personally have never met another Noahide in the military but if I did I wouldn't be opposed to ministering to them.  I have had people who have not been religious but took an interest in learning about my belief, one who said every time they hear me talk about Judaism they just "want to convert to it."  So I see my current role not so much as leading a religious group, but trying to have a positive influence on people, by being a peculiar individual who makes people stop and think about life's greater questions, even if just for a second.  I'm not really putting down roots as a Noahide because I intend to start converting to Judaism when I'm out of the Navy next year.

Of course you realize that there are good Jews who do belong to Reform synagogues who don't know any better. We cannot fault them for this. Although I was Bar Mitzvahed in a Conservative synagogue my parents when looking where to send my brother and I for Jewish education first chose a reform temple. Baruch Hashem that was not to be, but I still think even if I was a part of that I would still have made Teshuva when I made it (in 2003).

The point I have been trying to make is that it is important to look at individual Jews rather than the congregation they belong to. With Hashems help we can bring them back to Torah Judaism.

[muman613]

A little more about the story of Bar Kochba:

http://www.aish.com/h/o/33o/48970241.html

TELLING WHY IT HAPPENED

The Talmud, the unparalleled work of Rabbinic Judaism, had no need to retell well-known historical episodes. Its task was to illuminate and explain God's hand in history – to explain why things, especially specific tragedies, befell our people. Ironically, in this instance, the Talmud became our primary source for what were well-known events. Though the Talmud was not interested in telling us what happened, rather why it happened, uninitiated readers were deluded into thinking they knew what happened as well. Rav Shrira wished to set the record straight. Therefore he tells us what happened; the students died due to religious persecution.

The question which emerges is which religious persecution is referred to? We know that Rabbi Akiva was himself eventually murdered as part of the Hadrianic executions. We also know that Rabbi Akiva was an enthusiastic supporter of Bar Kochba.8 Therefore the association between Rabbi Akiva's "students" and the followers of Bar Kochba is likely.9

Maimonides describes Rabbi Akiva as an "arms bearer of Bar Koziba."10 The source of Maimonides's assertion is a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud:

Rav Shimon Ben Yochai taught: "Akiva my master would expound the verse a star will come from Jacob as 'Koziba will come from Jacob.' When Rabbi Akiva would see Bar Koziba he would say, 'There is the King Messiah.'"

Rav Yochanan ben Torta said: "Akiva, grass will grow from your cheeks and still the son of David will not come." (Jerusalem Talmud, Taanit chapter 4:5 page 68d)

The verse in question -- a star will come from Jacob -- is in the prophecy of Bil'am, the evil prophet who set out to curse the Jewish people but ended up blessing them instead:

I shall see him, but not now; I shall behold him, but not near; there shall come a star out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel, and shall strike the corners of Moab and destroy all the sons of Seth. (Numbers 24:17)

Bil'am's clairvoyance allowed him to see a star who would yet emerge and lead the Jewish People. Rabbi Akiva declared that the fulfillment of this verse was in the person of Bar Kochba a name which literally means, "Son of a Star." In fact, his name was not actually Bar Kochba: Based on recent archeological finds we know that his actual name was Bar Kosba (written with the Hebrew letter "samech"). The appellation Bar Kochba was part of the messianic identification made by Rabbi Akiva, by applying this verse from Bil'am's prophecy to Shimon bar Kosba. After the Bar Kochba rebellion was quashed, its leader was called Bar Koziba, "son of deceit" or "son of disappointment."

Rabbi Yohanan said: "Rabbi used to expound, There shall step forth a star (kochav) out of Jacob thus 'Read not star (kochav) but lie (kazav).'" (Eicha Rabba 2:4)

The aftermath of the painful defeat caused Bar Kochba to receive a new moniker, which recorded the profound failure for posterity.

[muman613]

Over Shabbat I will look into the Talmud concerning the 'baby captured by Nochrim' which has been used as a analogy for Jews who have not been brought up with proper Jewish education.

http://dafyomi.co.il/horayos/halachah/ho-hl-009.htm

http://dafyomi.co.il/azarah/halachah/az-hl-026.htm

[Yerusha]

As one Haredi comments here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/178653/VIDEO%3A-MK-Feiglin%2C-Minister-Aharonovich-and-the-Har-Habayis-Bluff.html

"How dare Mr. Feiglin visit the Har HaBayis and encourage other Jews to do the same! The Gedolei Yisrael of this and previous generations have declared it a Safek Issur Kareis (Rachmana Litzlan), because of uncertainty regarding the Makom HaMikdash and that (in the absence of a Parah Adumah) we are Safek Tmei’ei Meis."

This is the majority view amongst Haredim and one of the main reasons that they so loathed R.Kahane & his followers.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I saw that comment before, and I did respond, but I don't see it up any longer.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

You made a comment without even checking if that was the reason this Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser supposedly 'bashed' Rabbi Schneerson. Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser is a Breslover Rabbi who has made some claims which you would find out of the norm. He claims to have received a message from Shamayim from Rabbi Nachman who by many Mitnagdim also didn't quell his followers into not believe Rabbi Nachman was Moshiach. As a quasi-follower of Breslov I know that Rebbe Nachman did not say he was Moshiach, and neither did Rabbi Schneerson... So I doubt that what you suggest is the cause of Rabbi Odesser knocking the Chabad Rebbe...

It seems to me you are blinded by your biases.  I know someone personally, an elderly Jew, who attended one of the lubavitcher rebbes farbrengen's in person (actually he had gone to several before it) and the chassidim proclaimed him messiah at this farbrengen.  The rebbe said nothing against them and did nothing to stop it.  This Jew said after witnessing that he never attended another farbrengen.  Of course, he is not the only one!  Let's face reality.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Let me add that I agree that those who believe that their Rebbe, who has died, is Moshiach is problematic and may even be heretical. All those who I am involved with at Chabad reject the idea that Rabbi Schneerson is Moshiach, and yet they (and I too) believe he had 'sparks of moshiach' and that in every generation there are Jews who are potential Moshaichs if the time is right.

So in other words, they refuse to say flat out "he was not moshiach."  Do I have that right?  As I have encouraged you to do many times before, ask them a yes or no question and ask one of them to say "the rebbe was not moschiach".  If they won't say that then they are not being totally honest with you when they say something about supposedly rejecting ideas about such and such.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Wasn't it pretty common for people to think someone might be the Messiah in earlier times? Is it because of the results of one person in particular that we all freak when people think someone might be the Messiah?

No.

No.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

No.

No.

Really? That's what I have heard from Rabbis... Also who cares if someone thinks someone is the messiah. Is there a law against that? If they're going outside of law with their beliefs, they can answer to Hashem.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Really? That's what I have heard from Rabbis... Also who cares if someone thinks someone is the messiah. Is there a law against that? If they're going outside of law with their beliefs, they can answer to Hashem.

I don't know who told you but its not true.   Bar kochva was declared possibly the messiah because he fit several characteristics needed to be him.  In the end he didn't fulfill those obligations so it was understood by all that he was not moschiah.  He lost the war.  And then he died without bbuilding the temple so then it was even more obvious.

But here we have people who declare a messiah based on having nothing to do with the actual role of meessiah because they simply are declaring their rebbe (whom many of them worship) as being king of Judaism.  Then he dies and they continue to say it?  Why?  Because there is avoda zara involved, not just a stupid and obviously incorrect belief.  And an attempt to deform judaism again.  And they missionize their views to others.  So no its not just something for Hashem to deal with.

[muman613]

So in other words, they refuse to say flat out "he was not moshiach."  Do I have that right?  As I have encouraged you to do many times before, ask them a yes or no question and ask one of them to say "the rebbe was not moschiach".  If they won't say that then they are not being totally honest with you when they say something about supposedly rejecting ideas about such and such.

I have told you many times that the Chabad Rabbis I work with have said that Rabbi Scherson is not Moshiach. They believe that Moshiach will come soon...

PS: Am I detecting that you are 'putting words in my mouth'?

Let me add that I agree that those who believe that their Rebbe, who has died, is Moshiach is problematic and may even be heretical. All those who I am involved with at Chabad reject the idea that Rabbi Schneerson is Moshiach, and yet they (and I too) believe he had 'sparks of moshiach' and that in every generation there are Jews who are potential Moshaichs if the time is right.

There is a concept called 'sparks of Moshiach' which I have heard many times. This is a Chassidic idea which involves the concept of transmigration of souls, and it stipulates that in every generation there are great Tzadiks who have the potential to be Moshiach. If you would like I could provide you with some information on this.

[muman613]

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/highlights-of-moshiach/06.htm

In Bilaam's prophetic vision, he states,[28] "There steps forth a star from Jacob and there arises a scepter out of Israel." Targum Onkelos notes that this "star" alludes to Moshiach. The Jerusalem Talmud,[29] however, learns that this term alludes to every Jew, inasmuch as Jews are likened to the stars. How do we reconcile these seemingly contradictory interpretations?

Actually, both meanings are correct. The star in our verse alludes to both Moshiach and to every Jew, as the Meor Aynayim[30] writes, in name of Baal Shem Tov, that within each and every Jew there is a `spark' of the soul of Moshiach. This reconciles both aforesaid interpretations. As such, every Jew today has the ability to rectify the `spark' of Moshiach within the soul, which originates from the first human being - Adam. Adam is an acrostic for: Adam (Alef), David (Daled) and Moshiach (Mem).

Since the Jerusalem Talmud makes its comment on the verse "there steps forth (a star)" and "there arises," this indicates that it is a revealed aspect: Every Jew has the power to reveal the `spark' of Moshiach within him.

In practical terms this means that everyone has the ability, through Torah and mitzvos - to hasten the actual revelation of Moshiach. For, through Torah and mitzvos one effects a refinement within himself and within the world at large, thereby decreasing - slowly but surely - the spirit of impurity,[31] until we shall see the realization of the prophecy,[32] "And the spirit of impurity I shall remove - completely - from the earth," in the advent of Moshiach.

This personal and world refinement is also expressed in the Talmud with reference to the first Biblical commandment,[33] "to procreate and have children":

"The son of David (i.e. Moshiach) will not come until all souls will be brought forth from the spiritual treasure called `guf' ("body" in the heavens above)," which at the time of birth, becomes vested into a physical, corporeal body.

It does not suffice that the neshamah, the soul, remain in its lofty soul-treasure called guf, or the way it stands beneath the Throne of Glory (from where all souls come forth), but the soul must descend to earth (through birth), and then must use the soul-powers to refine and elevate the materialistic world in and around the person. Through this endeavor we will bring Moshiach, a descendant of David.

Notes:

28 Bamidbar 24:17
29 Maaser Sheni 4:6
30 Parshas Pinchas/end
31 As in Shmos 23:30
32 Zecharyah 13:2
33 Bereishis 1:28; Talmud, Yevamos 62a

[muman613]

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sichos-in-english/50/32.htm

Mashiach in Every Generation

The relevance of the above is made possible by the unique nature of our present times. To borrow an expression of the Previous Rebbe,[279] we have already "polished the buttons" and have completed all the elements of service required of us.

Furthermore, Mashiach is not merely a hope for the future, but there exists in every generation -- and surely, in our generation -- "a person from among the descendants of Judah who is worthy of being the Mashiach of Israel."[280] As the Chasam Sofer writes,[281] "From the time of the destruction of the Beis HaMikdash, there was born one who in his righteousness is worthy of being [Israel's] redeemer,"[282] and were there no impediments and obstacles which prevented his coming, he would have come already.

Moreover, these obstacles no longer exist, for when the service of the Jewish people over the centuries is considered as a whole, everything that is necessary to bring about the Redemption has been accomplished.[283] There is no valid explanation for the continuation of the exile. Accordingly, at this time, our spiritual service must focus on "standing prepared to greet Mashiach," anxiously awaiting his revelation with the willingness to accept him eagerly.


See also http://www.bethisraelct.org/page.asp?pageID=%7BA76869E5-ECF8-4E03-982C-01A93DF89068%7D&displayAll=1

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have told you many times that the Chabad Rabbis I work with have said that Rabbi Scherson is not Moshiach. They believe that Moshiach will come soon...

PS: Am I detecting that you are 'putting words in my mouth'?

But did you ask them "Yes or no, Was the Rebbe the messiah?"
And if so, how did they answer in exact words?
And if not, please do ask that.

There is a concept called 'sparks of Moshiach' which I have heard many times. This is a Chassidic idea which involves the concept of transmigration of souls, and it stipulates that in every generation there are great Tzadiks who have the potential to be Moshiach. If you would like I could provide you with some information on this.

Very subjective, and I could then say that about any tzadik.  So what sets apart the Rebbe because some of his followers say it about him?   It loses it's meaning if I can just declare any tzadik was a potential moshiach who failed.  So what?   After they already failed it has no practical relevance.   And it's certainly pointless to refer to someone as such after they already failed and already died.  Unless of course someone is promoting a certain agenda about a certain person - then it's very useful.

But you and I both know that the concept you are saying here, is NOT what his chassidim spoke of.  Many in chabad do believe their rebbe was mochiach and they are not concerned with sparks of anything.  Some of them even believe he is still alive!  It is those people I am attacking, plain and simple.  So your attempt to whitewash it by sanitizing it into some other belief which is not the belief I'm criticizing, fails.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

I asked a Chabad rabbi and he said "I don't know. I hope so.". Sometimes they say there are many opinions and don't give an answer.

[muman613]

I stated previously and will state again that my experience with Chabad here in California is that they will explicitly state that the Rebbe is NOT Moshiach. This should be obvious to anyone who studies Torah with Chabad, as we learn the Rambams laws of kings (regarding what is considered the task and nature of Moshiach). Looking at the tasks which need to be accomplished and comparing them to what has been achieved we can see that there is still much to do...

Major Issues relating to Moshiach and what he needs to do...

1) Be a descendant of King David
2) Be a Torah scholar.
3) Bring the Jews back to learning Torah
4) Bring the Jews from the four corners of the world to Israel.
5) Rebuild the Holy Temple

Or as Rambam puts it:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188356/jewish/Chapter-11.htm
Halacha 4
If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.

If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.

He will then improve the entire world, motivating all the nations to serve God together, as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.'

If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah. Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. God caused him to arise only to test the many, as Daniel 11:35 states: 'And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine, and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the future.'

Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also alluded to in Daniel's prophecies, as ibid. 11:14 states: 'The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.'

Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of Mashiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the mitzvot. In contrast, Christianity caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the Lord.

Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts. Ultimately, all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for Mashiach's coming and the improvement of the entire world, motivating the nations to serve God together as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.'

How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with the mention of Mashiach, Torah, and mitzvot. These matters have been spread to the furthermost islands to many stubborn-hearted nations. They discuss these matters and the mitzvot of the Torah, saying: 'These mitzvot were true, but were already negated in the present age and are not applicable for all time.'

Others say: 'Implied in the mitzvot are hidden concepts that can not be understood simply. The Mashiach has already come and revealed those hidden truths.'

When the true Messianic king will arise and prove successful, his position becoming exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage and their prophets and ancestors caused them to err.

It is clear that Rebbe Schnerson could not be the Moshiach. While I am an admirer of the Rebbe, believe he was a pious and righteous Yid, and he did a great deal to help the Jewish people in the aftermath of the Shoah, he did not accomplish a great number of the things which are required of a man to be considered Moshiach.

Anyone who ascribes to the Rebbe the title of Moshiach is making a very serious error, and deserves rebuke. Rambam is not the only one who says that the Moshiach must accomplish these goals in order to gain the appellation of Moshiach.

Thus the argument is over before it has even begun...

And in response to KWRBT who failed to read my repeated posts on the topic. I HAVE ASKED POINT blank whether they believe Rebbe was Moshiach and all four of the Chabad Rebbes who I trust have assured me that only a small fringe element of Chabad believe that stuff. I have asked numerous times and I will not ask any more because I study Torah with these Rabbis and I know that they don't believe that the Rebbe was moshiach...


PS: I also feel a sense of Love (Ahavat Yisrael) towards the Rebbe. This comes from my sense of Hakaras HaTov (Acknowledging the Good) and appreciation for the organization which he started which continues to this day doing great Mitzvot and kindness.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I asked a Chabad rabbi and he said "I don't know. I hope so.". Sometimes they say there are many opinions and don't give an answer.

 Very problematic.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

"This should be obvious to anyone who studies Torah with Chabad "

 It is obviously not. What are you talking about? Perhaps those you know dont, fine and very good and great. You obviously never been to 770 or seen what goes on there. In fact you dont have to come to Brooklyn NY for this you can see on the video what they do and the banner they have. ( I gave you link earlier you can search for it).

[muman613]

"This should be obvious to anyone who studies Torah with Chabad "

 It is obviously not. What are you talking about? Perhaps those you know dont, fine and very good and great. You obviously never been to 770 or seen what goes on there. In fact you dont have to come to Brooklyn NY for this you can see on the video what they do and the banner they have. ( I gave you link earlier you can search for it).

How do you reconcile what is taught by Chabad and this belief. It is irreconcilable...

Rebbe did not accomplish these goals... What do these heretics say?

Where is the Temple? Has the battle Moshiach wages been fought? There are many ways to prove that Rebbe was not moshiach and not a single way to prove he was...

Some Chabad presentations on the Jewish belief in Moshiach (and not that Rebbe was Moshiach)

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1588668/jewish/The-Coming-of-Moshiach.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1588669/jewish/Moshiach-and-the-End-of-Days.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/560686/jewish/Bring-Moshiach-Now.htm

[muman613]

I also wanted to add that there was a time in my youth when I actually believed I could have been Moshiach. This stems from the belief that the sparks of Moshiach are in each of us... Which I mentioned previously concerning the belief of the Rabbis whom I study with...

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I asked a Chabad rabbi and he said "I don't know. I hope so.". Sometimes they say there are many opinions and don't give an answer.

Sure, everyone hopes their leader is Moshiach! And we don't know truly how G-d has things planned out. I think the messiah has been here multiple times, and he will tell us who he was when he finally comes...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Sure, everyone hopes their leader is Moshiach! And we don't know truly how G-d has things planned out. I think the messiah has been here multiple times, and he will tell us who he was when he finally comes...

 Where? On this forum?

 Muman I agree. it is not possible, they need to get over it, but it is some of their belief (some of them, dont know how many).

[muman613]

It is clear according to all sages that in order to be considered the Moshiach he must accomplish all the goals in one lifetime... Once he has passed to the next world, he is not longer in the running to be considered Moshiach. This is mostly learned from the story of Bar Kochba who accomplished a great number of the tasks of the Moshiach, yet he died before completing them... Thus Bar Kochba was not Moshiach, thus every other contender who did not accomplish the goals as laid out in the Laws of Kings is not Moshiach...

I subscribe to the laws of Rambam mostly concerning these issues. Rambam is taught by Chabad...

But the concept of 'sparks of Moshiach' and the concept that a potential Moshiach is born in every generation makes sense to me..
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sichos-in-english/50/32.htm#n280

Mashiach in Every Generation

The relevance of the above is made possible by the unique nature of our present times. To borrow an expression of the Previous Rebbe,[279] we have already "polished the buttons" and have completed all the elements of service required of us.

Furthermore, Mashiach is not merely a hope for the future, but there exists in every generation -- and surely, in our generation -- "a person from among the descendants of Judah who is worthy of being the Mashiach of Israel."[280] As the Chasam Sofer writes,[281] "From the time of the destruction of the Beis HaMikdash, there was born one who in his righteousness is worthy of being [Israel's] redeemer,"[282] and were there no impediments and obstacles which prevented his coming, he would have come already.

Moreover, these obstacles no longer exist, for when the service of the Jewish people over the centuries is considered as a whole, everything that is necessary to bring about the Redemption has been accomplished.[283] There is no valid explanation for the continuation of the exile. Accordingly, at this time, our spiritual service must focus on "standing prepared to greet Mashiach," anxiously awaiting his revelation with the willingness to accept him eagerly.

279 See Sichos Simchas Torah, 5689.
280 The commentary of Rav Ovadiah of Bartenura to the Book of Ruth.
281 Responsa on Choshen Mishpat, Vol. 6, Responsum 98. (Significantly, this is not a text of allegory or homily, but rather a text of Torah law.) See also Sdei Chemed, Pe'as HaSadeh, Maareches Alef, principle 70.
282 This statement is based on a set of the fundamental principles of the Jewish faith. A Jew must await Mashiach's coming every day (Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Melachim 11:1), and, as explained in Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XII, p. 394, this means that every day, we must expect Mashiach's coming on that very day.
The Rambam (loc. cit. 11:4), however, defines certain criteria with which we will be able to recognize Mashiach. He will be a Torah sage of the House of David, vigilant in the observance of the mitzvos, who will motivate the entire Jewish people to strengthen their Torah practice. At a given time, he will "fight the wars of G-d and be victorious" and then rebuild the Beis HaMikdash.

Since performing these tasks requires time, we must assume that in every generation there is a potential Mashiach, who is in the midst of the preliminary stages of the above service. Should the setting be appropriate, as the above-quoted responsum of the Chasam Sofer states, "the spirit of Mashiach will rest upon him," and he will redeem our people. (Translator's Note.)

283 Although there may be particular elements of service which are lacking, and in many individual matters there is a need for improvement, this does not affect the nature of the situation as a whole. When the greater context is considered, it is clear that our people have completed the mission with which we were charged. These particular failings, although in need of correction, are not a valid reason for the Redemption to be delayed any longer. See Sichos Parshas Noach, 5752.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Where? On this forum?

 Muman I agree. it is not possible, they need to get over it, but it is some of their belief (some of them, dont know how many).

What? On the forum? No, on earth!

I think you and others slow the coming of Moshiach, by being so negative. You guys wouldn't know if Moshiach was standing right next to you! Your right, everyone else is wrong...

I sometimes wonder if you truly want the Moshiach to come.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

So you're Bahai now?

What's that? I think I have heard of it...