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[TruthSpreader]

[angryChineseKahanist]

absolutely true.

[A Blue Thread]

Shalom ~

Leviticus 20:13 is pretty clear on the first issue. Note that Leviticus doesn't specify that a pattern of behavior has to exist; reading the law as written makes even a one-time event grounds for punishment.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is pretty clear on the second issue, with respect to marriage. As for how the Muslims do it, I'm not finding anywhere in the shari'a laws where punishment is prescribed for the female unwilling to agree to such a marriage; in any case, such incidents are usually cultural and not religious in nature. Abuse of their system, though, is rampant so there's no telling who's doing what at any given time or what they're using as justification.

[Zelhar]

I think the sign should read in the title: "This is Islam". There is no need to label it with other forms of injustice, because Islam is hard core brutality, cruelty and injustice.

[muman613]

Shalom ~

Leviticus 20:13 is pretty clear on the first issue. Note that Leviticus doesn't specify that a pattern of behavior has to exist; reading the law as written makes even a one-time event grounds for punishment.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is pretty clear on the second issue, with respect to marriage. As for how the Muslims do it, I'm not finding anywhere in the shari'a laws where punishment is prescribed for the female unwilling to agree to such a marriage; in any case, such incidents are usually cultural and not religious in nature. Abuse of their system, though, is rampant so there's no telling who's doing what at any given time or what they're using as justification.

But you must be clear that the Sanhedrin is the only one which can issue any death penalty. We currently do not have a Sanhedrin and thus we cannot apply the law as it is written. Also you must be aware that the Torah proscribes the death penalty for a plethora of sins, most explicitly for the desecration of the Shabbat. I think there are more Jews violating Shabbat than there are homosexual Jews. So if you are eager to apply this law you will need to put to death an awful lot of Jews. Also the evidence which is needed for a capital case according to the Torah is two witnesses who have warned the transgressor previously. According to the Talmud and other sources the Sanhredrin did not put to death one Jew in 70 years...

I am also not clear what you are trying to say concerning the 'rapist'. In Jewish law the RAPIST is the one who is punished, not the woman...

http://www.aish.com/atr/Rape.html

I was reading in an online forum that Judaism advocates that a rapist marry his victim. This sounds so backward and oppressive, and difficult to reconcile with the compassionate Judaism that I know and love. Is what I read accurate?

The Aish Rabbi Replies:

Highly inaccurate. (Are you surprised?)

Judaism takes a strong position against rape, with the Talmud comparing it to murder. As such, Judaism permits one to kill a rapist who is in pursuit of a woman, in order to save her from attack.

Rape of a married woman is a capital crime. (Deuteronomy 22:25)

Rape of a single woman carries a heavy monetary fine, plus the rapist has to pay reparation for embarrassment, damages and emotional anguish. The rapist also incurs lashes. This is all intended as both a deterrent and a punishment. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

As regards to what you read, Judaism gives the woman the option of demanding that the rapist marry her. (We can only speculate why she would so desire, but nevertheless it is her exclusive option.)

Feel free to post this response on that online forum.

Talmudic passages concerning the death penalty @ http://www.webshas.org/baisdin/punish/meesah.htm

[A Blue Thread]

But you must be clear that the Sanhedrin is the only one which can issue any death penalty. We currently do not have a Sanhedrin and thus we cannot apply the law as it is written. Also you must be aware that the Torah proscribes the death penalty for a plethora of sins, most explicitly for the desecration of the Shabbat. I think there are more Jews violating Shabbat than there are homosexual Jews. So if you are eager to apply this law you will need to put to death an awful lot of Jews. Also the evidence which is needed for a capital case according to the Torah is two witnesses who have warned the transgressor previously. According to the Talmud and other sources the Sanhredrin did not put to death one Jew in 70 years...

Granted, all of this is true- unfortunately, it's also irrelevant. If you place the authority to enforce the law into the hands of the Sanhedrin, that's all well and good- but not having the Sanhedrin present as 'enforcers' doesn't change the law itself. It's still a prohibited act whether we apply the prescribed penalty or not. As an example, if you drive 55mph in a 35mph zone and there's no policeman to stop you and write you a ticket, are you still guilty of breaking the law? Of course you are- you just got away with it that time. (The 'rules of evidence', re: number of witnesses, warnings, etc, is also beside the point- it's still a prohibited act, period, whether or not anyone actually sees you- and even if another person doesn't see you, G-d surely does.)

As for the Muslims carrying out their deadly punishment for blatant homosexuality, they're enforcing a law that we cannot (or do not, depending on one's perspective). They have their own rules of evidence and methods of jurisprudence, of course, but in the end they're doing what we would be doing if we were enforcing the law. Again, though (just as I noted for the example of the rape victims and those laws that apply) abuse of their system is out there and sometimes (read: almost always) it's difficult to tell if a particular execution is a legally-derived sentence being carried out or if it's nothing more than trumped-up charges being used for settling personal or political vendettas.

[muman613]

But you must be clear that the Sanhedrin is the only one which can issue any death penalty. We currently do not have a Sanhedrin and thus we cannot apply the law as it is written. Also you must be aware that the Torah proscribes the death penalty for a plethora of sins, most explicitly for the desecration of the Shabbat. I think there are more Jews violating Shabbat than there are homosexual Jews. So if you are eager to apply this law you will need to put to death an awful lot of Jews. Also the evidence which is needed for a capital case according to the Torah is two witnesses who have warned the transgressor previously. According to the Talmud and other sources the Sanhredrin did not put to death one Jew in 70 years...

Granted, all of this is true- unfortunately, it's also irrelevant. If you place the authority to enforce the law into the hands of the Sanhedrin, that's all well and good- but not having the Sanhedrin present as 'enforcers' doesn't change the law itself. It's still a prohibited act whether we apply the prescribed penalty or not. As an example, if you drive 55mph in a 35mph zone and there's no policeman to stop you and write you a ticket, are you still guilty of breaking the law? Of course you are- you just got away with it that time. (The 'rules of evidence', re: number of witnesses, warnings, etc, is also beside the point- it's still a prohibited act, period, whether or not anyone actually sees you- and even if another person doesn't see you, G-d surely does.)

As for the Muslims carrying out their deadly punishment for blatant homosexuality, they're enforcing a law that we cannot (or do not, depending on one's perspective). They have their own rules of evidence and methods of jurisprudence, of course, but in the end they're doing what we would be doing if we were enforcing the law. Again, though (just as I noted for the example of the rape victims and those laws that apply) abuse of their system is out there and sometimes (read: almost always) it's difficult to tell if a particular execution is a legally-derived sentence being carried out or if it's nothing more than trumped-up charges being used for settling personal or political vendettas.

I was not suggesting that because of the lack of Sanhedrin that it is still not prohibited. Just that we cannot serve justice with a death penalty. There are several Torah mandated penalties for a variety of transgressions which we cannot mete out...

But the Talmud clearly says that those who merit a death sentence during times without a sanhedrin will ultimately be dealt justice directly through Hashems hand..

http://www.webshas.org/baisdin/punish/meesah.htm

Gd making sure a person suffers the equivalent of a death penalty he would have suffered at the hands of a court, were the court able to administer it: Sotah 8b

http://halakhah.com/sotah/sotah_8.html

SOTAH 8b

GEMARA. R. Joseph said: Although the measure13  has ceased, [the principle] IN THE MEASURE has not ceased.14  For R. Joseph said, and similarly taught R. Hiyya: From the day the Temple was destroyed, although the Sanhedrin ceased to function, the four modes of execution15  did not cease. But they did cease! — [The meaning is:] The judgment16  of the four modes of execution did not cease. He who would have been condemned to stoning either falls from a roof [and dies] or a wild beast tramples him [to death]. He who would have been condemned to burning either falls into a fire or a serpent stings him. He who would have been condemned to decapitation is either handed over to the [Gentile] Government17  or robbers attack him. He who would have been condemned to strangulation either drowns in a river or dies of a quinsy.18

It has been taught: Rabbi19  used to say: Whence is it that in the measure with which a man measures it is meted out to him? As it is said: By measure in sending her away thou dost contend with her.20  I have here only a se'ah;21  whence is it to include a trikab and half a trikab, a kab and half a kab, a quarter, an eighth, a sixteenth and a thirtysecond part of a kab? There is a text to state, For all the armour of the armed man in the tumult.22  And whence is it that every perutah23  reckons together into a great sum? There is a text to state, Laying one thing to another to find out the account.24  Thus we find in the case of a suspected woman that in the measure with which she measured it was meted out to her. She stood at the entrance of her house to display herself to the man; therefore a priest sets her by the Nicanor-gate and displays her disgrace to all. She wound a beautiful scarf about her head for him; therefore a priest removes her headgear and places it under her feet. She beautified her face for him; therefore

[A Blue Thread]

Right, Muman- we're on the same page on this, just looking at it from different angles!

[muman613]

You may find this page of Talmud tractate Krithoth interesting:

http://halakhah.com/pdf/kodoshim/Krithoth.pdf

MISHNAH. THERE ARE IN THE TORAH THIRTY-SIX [TRANSGRESSIONS WHICH ARE PUNISHABLE1  WITH] EXTINCTION:2 WHEN ONE HAS INTERCOURSE WITH HIS MOTHER,3 HIS FATHER'S WIFE OR HIS DAUGHTER-IN-LAW; WHEN A MAN HAS CONNECTION WITH A MALE, OR COVERS A BEAST, OR WHEN A WOMAN ALLOWS HERSELF TO BE COVERED BY A BEAST; WHEN ONE HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A WOMAN AND HER DAUGHTER,4 WITH A MARRIED WOMAN, WITH HIS SISTER, WITH HIS FATHER'S SISTER, HIS MOTHER'S SISTER, HIS WIFE'S SISTER,5 HIS BROTHER'S WIFE,6 THE WIFE OF HIS FATHER'S BROTHER,7 OR WITH A MENSTRUOUS WOMAN; WHEN ONE BLASPHEMES [THE LORD].8 SERVES IDOLS,9  DEDICATES OF HIS CHILDREN TO MOLECH10 OR HAS A FAMILIAR SPIRIT,11 OR DESECRATES THE SABBATH;12 . WHEN AN UNCLEAN PERSON EATS OF SACRIFICIAL FOOD,13 OR WHEN ONE ENTERS THE PRECINCTS OF THE TEMPLE IN AN UNCLEAN STATE;14 WHEN ONE EATS HELEB,15 BLOOD,16 NOTHAR17 OR PIGGUL;18 WHEN ONE SLAUGHTERS OR OFFERS UP19 [A CONSECRATED ANIMAL] OUTSIDE [THE TEMPLE PRECINCTS]; WHEN ONE EATS ANYTHING LEAVENED ON PASSOVER;20 WHEN ONE EATS OR WORKS ON THE DAY OF ATONEMENT;21 WHEN ONE COMPOUNDS OIL [OF ANOINTING]22 OR COMPOUNDS INCENSE,23 OR USES [UNLAWFULLY] OIL OF ANOINTING;24 AND [WHEN ONE TRANSGRESSES THE LAWS OF] THE PASCHAL OFFERING25 , AND CIRCUMCISION26 — FROM AMONG POSITIVE COMMANDMENTS. FOR THESE [TRANSGRESSIONS] ONE IS LIABLE TO EXTINCTION IF COMMITTED WILFULLY,27 AND IF IN ERROR TO A SIN-OFFERING,28 AND IF THERE IS A DOUBT WHETHER HE HAD COMMITTED THE TRANSGRESSION TO A SUSPENSIVE GUILT-OFFERING, EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF ONE WHO DEFILED THE TEMPLE OR ITS CONSECRATED THINGS,29 SINCE ONE IS LIABLE IN THIS CASE TO A SLIDING-SCALE SACRIFICE.30 THUS R. MEIR, WHILE THE SAGES SAY: ALSO THE BLASPHEMER [IS AN EXCEPTION],31 FOR IT SAYS: YE SHALL HAVE ONE LAW FOR HIM THAT DOETH AUGHT IN ERROR;32 THIS IS TO EXCLUDE THE BLASPHEMER33 WHO PERFORMS NO ACTION.34

[angryChineseKahanist]

If 99% of the time these things happen in pislam, than its pIslam.
I'm not digging for the 1%.