Author Topic: Rotten Orthodoxy : The Heresy of Open Orthodoxy  (Read 5653 times)

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Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Rotten Orthodoxy : The Heresy of Open Orthodoxy
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2013, 10:00:53 PM »
How so?

I guess that is supposed to be a joke?
Yes! I also agree that Rambam is not the only authority. What about Ramban? I also don't like to take everything a human says as truth...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Rotten Orthodoxy : The Heresy of Open Orthodoxy
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2013, 10:33:59 PM »
Well of course.   Its one of the 13 principles ("ikkarim").  But other rishonim argued on his list!

 On what points did they argue in particular? Also (I dont know too much about this) but I also believe they argued about having the list because of it is about beliefs and not actions. For example he doesn't mention breaking Shabbat or the sins of Karet but mentions beliefs instead (or something like that, I dont know this too well).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Rotten Orthodoxy : The Heresy of Open Orthodoxy
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2013, 10:41:44 PM »
I believe Rambams principles are the basis for Jewish belief. These are the reasons the Mitzvot have any importance.

Tehillim 104:24
'Wisdom is the root of all things'...

http://www.breslov.org/bookshelf/teachings/alien.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Rotten Orthodoxy : The Heresy of Open Orthodoxy
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2013, 10:46:15 PM »
Biblical Sources for the 13 principles:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/949602/jewish/The-Biblical-Basis-for-the-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm


The following is a list of the Thirteen Principles, as penned by Maimonides,1 along with their biblical sources:

1. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide of all created beings, and that He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.

Source: "I am G‑d your G‑d"2—Exodus 20:2.

2. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is One and Alone; that there is no oneness in any way like Him; and that He alone is our G‑d—was, is and will be.

Source: "Hear O Israel, G‑d is our G‑d, G‑d is One"—Deuteronomy 6:4.

3. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is incorporeal; that He is free from all anthropomorphic properties; and that He has no likeness at all.

Source: "You did not see any image on the day that G‑d spoke to you at Horeb [Sinai]."—Deuteronomy 4:15.

4. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and the last.

Source: "[The heavens] are the abode for the G‑d who precedes all"—Deuteronomy 33:27.3

5. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the only one to whom it is proper to pray, and that it is inappropriate to pray to anyone else.

Source: "Lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven . . . and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them"—Deuteronomy 4:19

6. I believe with complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

Source: "G‑d will raise up a prophet from among you… and you shall hearken to him"—Deuteronomy 18:15.

7. I believe with complete faith that the prophecy of Moses our teacher, peace unto him, was true; and that he was the father of the prophets, both of those who preceded and of those who followed him.

Source: "G‑d would speak to Moses face to face"—Exodus 33:11; "Mouth to mouth, I speak to him"—Numbers 12:8.4

8. I believe with complete faith that the whole Torah which we now possess was given to Moses, our teacher, peace unto him.

Source: "With this you shall know that G‑d sent me to do all these deeds, for I did not devise them myself"—Numbers 16:28.

9. I believe with complete faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will be no other Torah given by the Creator, blessed be His name.

Source: "You shall not add to it, not subtract from it"—Deuteronomy 13:1.5

10. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows all the deeds and thoughts of human beings, as it is said, "It is He who fashions the hearts of them all, He who perceives all their actions."

Source (in addition to Psalms 33:15 quoted in the actual text): "Who is great in counsel and mighty in carrying it out, for Your eyes are open to all the ways of mankind"—Jeremiah 32:19; "G‑d saw that the evil of man on earth was very great"—Genesis 6:5.

11. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards those who observe His commandments, and punishes those who transgress His commandments.

Source: "And G‑d said to Moses: 'Whoever has sinned against Me, him I will erase from My book!'"—Exodus 32:33.6

12. I believe with complete faith in the coming of Moshiach, and although he may tarry, nevertheless, I wait every day for him to come.

Source: "G‑d will restore your fortunes, have mercy on you, and gather you"—Deuteronomy 30:3.

13. I believe with complete faith that there will be resurrection of the dead at the time when it will be the will of the Creator, blessed be His name and exalted be His remembrance forever and ever.

Source: "Many who sleep in the dust shall awaken, some to everlasting life, and some to ever lasting shame and reproach"—Daniel 12:2.

I hope this has helped!

Rabbi Eliezer Zalmanov
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Rotten Orthodoxy : The Heresy of Open Orthodoxy
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2013, 10:52:40 PM »
On what points did they argue in particular? Also (I dont know too much about this) but I also believe they argued about having the list because of it is about beliefs and not actions. For example he doesn't mention breaking Shabbat or the sins of Karet but mentions beliefs instead (or something like that, I dont know this too well).

Marc shapiro's book has all the details.  Unfortunately I haven't read it.

Offline muman613

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Re: Rotten Orthodoxy : The Heresy of Open Orthodoxy
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2013, 10:55:54 PM »
Marc shapiro's book has all the details.  Unfortunately I haven't read it.

KWRBT,

This PDF file contains mention of Shapiro's work:

http://download.yutorah.org/2005/918/709863.pdf
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Rotten Orthodoxy : The Heresy of Open Orthodoxy
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2013, 09:28:55 AM »
KWRBT,

This PDF file contains mention of Shapiro's work:

http://download.yutorah.org/2005/918/709863.pdf

It's very well-known.   I've read about it, but never read it.   I just never got around to buying a copy.  I think there's a lot of good information in there and can help balance the discussion on this sort of topic.