Kosher Meat and Cheese?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So KWRBT,

Why does Rabbi Moshe Feinstein rule that entering a non-kosher eatery is forbidden if (as your rav said) the  only cases of marit ayin are the cases in the Talmud? Do you consider Rav Feinstein a competent posek? He is considered one of the Gedolim of our last generation. How could he rule that it was indeed a case of marit ayin then?


http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/outershiur.asp?id=6425

However, Rav Moshe Feinstein rules that entering a non-kosher eatery is a violation of maris ayin (Shu’t Igros Moshe, Orach Chayim 2:40). Why does he not compare this law to the inn of the earlier poskim?

The answer is that in the sixteenth century, the inn functioned as a place of shelter and lodging, in addition to providing food. Therefore, someone seeing you enter the inn would assume that you were looking for a place to sleep, and that you have no intention to eat non-kosher food there. Thus, the sixteenth-century inn is more comparable to a twentieth-first century hotel that contains non-kosher restaurants. There is certainly no maris ayin prohibition to visit a hotel since a passerby would assume that you are entering the hotel for reasons other than eating non-kosher. However, the primary reason people enter a non-kosher restaurant is to eat treif food. Therefore, Rav Moshe ruled that it is prohibited to enter a treif restaurant because of maris ayin.

Hmm, I wasn't aware of this.   But I go by my rav's psak, not Rabbi Feinstein's.
     
That's saying enough already, but I feel compelled to add that this is just one of those modern era psakim that don't make sense to me.   When were kashrut agencies invented?  1920's? 1940's? 1950's?   My understanding is that there was a time that there weren't "kosher restaurants" and people routinely went out and ate the food that was kosher but did not order the food that was not kosher.     Now we are saying that what all those people and rabbis did as a matter of course was actually not permitted?  Or is it just saying, now that the situation is like x,y,z now it's no longer permitted.    It doesn't sound convincing to me.   
But you are correct there is a machloketh on this issue.

However, let me stress the fact that a restaurant and a grocery store, are not the same thing.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

   KWRBT about your last point- I would have to slightly disagree about the restaurants. Unfortunately the level of trust has gone down dramatically and their is a NEED for proper supervision when it comes to foods involving meat.  The situation is that a few generations ago people were a lot more trustworthy and in small towns and such people knew each other well and it was known from whom the person bought the foods etc. (besides the fact that "eating out" was rare).  Today many (Kosher) restaurants are owned by different people- Religious Jews, non-religious Jews and non-Jews as well. In some cases the owners don't even know the rules well soo therfore a proper mashgiah is needed to make sure people are not eating non-Kosher. Also in this mix their are individuals who could care less if what you are eating is kosher or not. Its all a business. In some cases even with Masgihim they were caught literally serving non-kosher to the guests and when caught tried to either bribe the masgiah or made serious threats (I have a friend who is a Mashgiah and this literally happened to him, he was threatened, and thrown into the freezer and said to shut his mouth). Suffice it to say their Kashrut status has been taken away (and this happened even after that incident soo I would assume they did something fishy again), but nevertheless these things exist and with Mashgiah it isn't 100% but never-the-less someone to at least fear a little in order to not scamm people.

 If their would not be a mashgiah you and I would probably not be allowed to eat by anyone except someone whom you know well and to be a trustworthy, G-D fearing individual.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

   KWRBT about your last point- I would have to slightly disagree about the restaurants. Unfortunately the level of trust has gone down dramatically and their is a NEED for proper supervision when it comes to foods involving meat.  The situation is that a few generations ago people were a lot more trustworthy and in small towns and such people knew each other well and it was known from whom the person bought the foods etc. (besides the fact that "eating out" was rare).  Today many (Kosher) restaurants are owned by different people- Religious Jews, non-religious Jews and non-Jews as well. In some cases the owners don't even know the rules well soo therfore a proper mashgiah is needed to make sure people are not eating non-Kosher. Also in this mix their are individuals who could care less if what you are eating is kosher or not. Its all a business. In some cases even with Masgihim they were caught literally serving non-kosher to the guests and when caught tried to either bribe the masgiah or made serious threats (I have a friend who is a Mashgiah and this literally happened to him, he was threatened, and thrown into the freezer and said to shut his mouth). Suffice it to say their Kashrut status has been taken away (and this happened even after that incident soo I would assume they did something fishy again), but nevertheless these things exist and with Mashgiah it isn't 100% but never-the-less someone to at least fear a little in order to not scamm people.

 If their would not be a mashgiah you and I would probably not be allowed to eat by anyone except someone whom you know well and to be a trustworthy, G-D fearing individual.

Tag, I was talking about Jews eating in non kosher restaurants. and only ordering kosher food (not meat!)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Tag, I was talking about Jews eating in non kosher restaurants. and only ordering kosher food (not meat!)

 Ok kool. Agreed.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

A gedi is a goat, not a lamb. Lamb is keves.

We don't need Jew hating-Christians or Jew-hating "Bible critics" on a Jewish forum. The Bible specifically lists the prohibition of meat and milk next to the prohibition of idolatry like you say.

Abraham did not mix meat and milk. First he served butter with matzah. Then afterwards Sarah prepared the meat.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Honestly this is a really dumb thread but I too am very concerned about a new member who is lecturing Jews about their religion with the goal of changing it.

[Sveta]

Now, "Christian Defender", Hashem said He loved Avraham because he kept His Torah.  What is your issue exactly?

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

"Christian Defender" is banned. His clear objective is to missionize. He wants to "prove" that Torah Judaism is wrong.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

בס''ד

"Christian Defender" is banned. His clear objective is to missionize. He wants to "prove" that Torah Judaism is wrong.

Probably the wisest choice. He clearly was some kind of troll.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

בס''ד

"Christian Defender" is banned. His clear objective is to missionize. He wants to "prove" that Torah Judaism is wrong.

Not only that, but he is a self-hating Jew of the worse type.

Here is his introduction:

Hi,i am a Jewish convert to Evangelical Christianity ("Messianic Judaism").I support the Zionist ideology of a Jewish homeland due to Psalms 82 and Romans 9-11.

A Jew who entices other Jews to convert to Xtianity is worse than Gentiles who do so and are violating a specific mitzvah read this time of year. I forget which parasha but it might have been the past parasha (Shoftim) or the coming one or the one after that.

He also says he lives in Israel. On the other hand, Chaim is not allowed to set foot in Israel.

[muman613]

Uh, It was this last weeks portion... And week before that's portion (Re'eh)..

Re'eh:

13:

7. If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known."
8. Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth;
9. You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him.   

Shoftim:

17:
2. If there will be found among you, within one of your cities which the Lord, your God is giving you, a man or woman who does evil in the eyes of the Lord, your God, to transgress His covenant,
3. and who will go and worship other gods and prostrate himself before them, or to the sun, the moon, or any of the host of the heavens, which I have not commanded;
4. and it will be told to you, and you will hear it, and investigate thoroughly, and behold, the matter coincides; this abomination has been perpetrated in Israel.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Uh, It was this weeks portion... And last weeks portion..

Re'eh:

13:

7. If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known."
8. Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth;
9. You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him.   

Shoftim:

17:
2. If there will be found among you, within one of your cities which the Lord, your God is giving you, a man or woman who does evil in the eyes of the Lord, your God, to transgress His covenant,
3. and who will go and worship other gods and prostrate himself before them, or to the sun, the moon, or any of the host of the heavens, which I have not commanded;
4. and it will be told to you, and you will hear it, and investigate thoroughly, and behold, the matter coincides; this abomination has been perpetrated in Israel.

Too bad you couldn't respond to his deleted comment on this thread about meat and milk. He was saying that the Torah means chelev (forbidden fats) and not chalav (milk).

[muman613]

Too bad you couldn't respond to his deleted comment on this thread about meat and milk. He was saying that the Torah means chelev (forbidden fats) and not chalav (milk).

Oh interesting... I am glad I missed the entire thing. It is quite disappointing to hear stories like this.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Not only that, but he is a self-hating Jew of the worse type.

Here is his introduction:
 

A Jew who entices other Jews to convert to Xtianity is worse than Gentiles who do so and are violating a specific mitzvah read this time of year. I forget which parasha but it might have been the past parasha (Shoftim) or the coming one or the one after that.

He also says he lives in Israel. On the other hand, Chaim is not allowed to set foot in Israel.

 The vast majority of the time when they say that they aren't Jewish, but they make it up. I dont remember this person but on the net their are many people who claim to be Jewish but then converted to xtianity. They make it up in order to lie to people. It is easy to expose them.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Not only that, but he is a self-hating Jew of the worse type.

Here is his introduction:
 

A Jew who entices other Jews to convert to Xtianity is worse than Gentiles who do so and are violating a specific mitzvah read this time of year. I forget which parasha but it might have been the past parasha (Shoftim) or the coming one or the one after that.

He also says he lives in Israel. On the other hand, Chaim is not allowed to set foot in Israel.

If we can believe anything he said. He might just have been another incarnation of Homo, Jr. or Ralph.