MK Uri Ariel of Bayit Yehudi Vs. the Jewish prayer book

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

After screaming "SHUT UP" at me like a little girl, how do you expect me to be nice in my reply?

Don't call me a little girl!

[muman613]

Once again you are equating the "suffering" of your Syrian nazi lover-boys with the victimization of Jews in the holocaust.    Shame on you.

Pointless because you are wrong and misguided so what can you possibly say in response when I criticize your absurd opinion and your stance of moral equivalence (which obviously is NOT the ethics of Judaism but rather the "ethics" of modern liberal politics)?

You don't consider the fact that you are insulting the memory of holocaust victims?  You just simply "stand by it?"

As some others have pointed out, muslim nazi's were not the only ones who suffered from this attack. If you have read my posts you will learn that I fully support the death of enemies of the Jewish people. But I do not believe that all who were harmed by this attack are deserving. You seem to know better, that is your perogative.

But please do not ascribe things to me which I have not said. You are engaging in the very behavior which you accuse others of engaging in. I believe you should look inside yourself to discover what makes you react in such a manner.

[muman613]

Sharpen your reading and conversation skills KWRBT and you will have a very good future...

Making baseless accusations makes you look foolish, IMO...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

KWRBT,

I love you but you seem to lack the ability to read what is written.

My statement, which I explained ad-nauseum in this thread, is that Jews have been considered 'clannish' and of caring only for Jews. Often it is asked why the nations of the world did not do more to save the Jews. If we can shut out the suffering of others without any regret for the loss of life we cannot ever ask why they don't do anything to help us.

I am not going to argue with you point for point, because it is pointless.

But I stand by what I said, you can agree or disagree, that is your right.

 Yett in reality Jews as a whole do and act in the exact OPPOSITE direction and yet Jews as a whole are hated the most. Look at all the Jews who run around the world to help others, even their enemies (which is completely wrong!). Mny Jews go to Africa to help the black babies. After Katrina many of them went to New Orleans, many of them died for black civil rights, many of them died defending "their country" Germany during WW1. Many of them go all over to protect and work for the benefit of others YETT they are precisely the ones who get spitt at the most and said these ridiculous claims against.

[muman613]

Yett in reality Jews as a whole do and act in the exact OPPOSITE direction and yet Jews as a whole are hated the most. Look at all the Jews who run around the world to help others, even their enemies (which is completely wrong!). Mny Jews go to Africa to help the black babies. After Katrina many of them went to New Orleans, many of them died for black civil rights, many of them died defending "their country" Germany during WW1. Many of them go all over to protect and work for the benefit of others YETT they are precisely the ones who get spitt at the most and said these ridiculous claims against.

This is irrelevant to what I am saying. That others do foolish things in the name of trying to appease the nations does not mean that we should be insensitive to the plight of others. Some people (you included) seem to make the assumption that only 'guilty' or 'deserving' people were killed in this attack. I am of the belief that there were innocent people killed, including Syrian Christians, and children who may not have accepted the Jew hatred that they may have been indoctrinated with.

My argument is not that we must care what the nations think. I am suggesting that we act in a way which Magnifies Hashems name in the eyes of the nations, thus acting like the 'light upon the nations' which we are tasked with being.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Don't call me a little girl!

Then don't scream like one.   (It's commonly understood that in internet parlance, typing out a statement in all caps is meant as yelling.  Coupled to the fact that it's an irrational emotional outburst instead of substantive reply, how can you claim it was not done in the manner of a little girl?  Is it more comfortable for you if I call it the behavior of a little boy instead?).

Please don't derail this thread into shouting matches or other pointless sniping.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Then don't scream like one.   (It's commonly understood that in internet parlance, typing out a statement in all caps is meant as yelling.  Coupled to the fact that it's an irrational emotional outburst instead of substantive reply, how can you claim it was not done in the manner of a little girl?  Is it more comfortable for you if I call it the behavior of a little boy instead?).

Please don't derail this thread into shouting matches or other pointless sniping.

You want to go? I'm game! We can meet at some point... Why don't you be respectful?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As some others have pointed out, muslim nazi's were not the only ones who suffered from this attack. If you have read my posts you will learn that I fully support the death of enemies of the Jewish people. But I do not believe that all who were harmed by this attack are deserving.

The vast majority of Syrians are overwhelmingly Jew-hating nazis.   So by what kind of calculus does it make sense to mourn over a mass casualty event taking place in the midst of their civil war?

But please do not ascribe things to me which I have not said.

Again, just as when I said "What words" - as in, what words did I put in your mouth - I beg you please tell me what things I ascribed to you that you didn't say.   YOU DID equate holocaust victims with victims of the Syrian chemical weapons attack (assuming it actually took place).   YOU did that, not me.   I quoted you directly.    You can't erase it from the archives, it's stored in the thread.   I merely point out that such comments as the ones you make are insulting to the memory of holocaust victims.   You seem unwilling to acknowledge that point and unwilling to relent from your stance of irresponsible moral equivalence.

You are engaging in the very behavior which you accuse others of engaging in. I believe you should look inside yourself to discover what makes you react in such a manner.

You already said this earlier in the thread and I asked you "what words" did I put in your mouth.   You couldn't specify.  Now you are just repeating the same baseless accusation over again because you can't deal with what I'm writing in reply to your silly accusations and weak points that have no sound logic (such as the book of yonah or other extraneous materials you are citing). 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You want to go? I'm game! 

Silliness. 

We can meet at some point... Why don't you be respectful?

Yes, because "OH SHUT UP FOR ONCE" is the exemplar of respect.

[edu]

The following Psalms is supposed to be said according to my prayer book, before bircat hamazon (Grace after meals) on regular days of the week.
Note Muman613 how the Psalms end with a blessing towards the one that dashes the little ones of the Daughter of Babylon against the rock. It sounds like the Bible doesn't have your definition of who do we consider innocent.
Psalms

Chapter 137

1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

2 Upon the willows in the midst thereof we hanged up our harps.

3 For there they that led us captive asked of us words of song, and our tormentors asked of us mirth: 'Sing us one of the songs of Zion.'

4 How shall we sing HaShem'S song in a foreign land?

5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.

6 Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember thee not; if I set not Jerusalem above my chiefest joy.

7 Remember, O HaShem, against the children of Edom the day of Jerusalem; who said: 'Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.'

8 O daughter of Babylon, that art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that repayeth thee as thou hast served us.

9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the rock.

[muman613]

Edu,

Obviously I know this Psalm, it is part of Bentsching...

But your interpretation seems to be biased. You realize that Babylon is one of the four exiles, and the Babylonians led us in captivity from our land. Thus the enmity of the Jewish people towards Babylon rose to the level of destroying their young ones.

I do not think, nor do I think any sage alive today, would compare Syria to the Babylonians. Thus I don't see any relevance of this Psalm to the question of whether we should pray for the innocent of Syria.

[muman613]

Edu,

Do you suggest that all 'enemies' of Israel deserve to have their children exterminated? Also as several here have made the error of assuming all those who were killed in this attack are A) Muslim, B) Enemies of Israel, C) Deserved death I am saying that we do not know whether Syrian Christians or non-Muslims were killed in the attack.

The Torah clearly sees different levels of enemies. Not every nation which rose against Israel can be compared to Amalek. Even Moab, which the Torah clearly says should not be allowed to join our nation, eventually became the great-grandmother of the Moshiach. This is because the prohibition of marrying Moabites only applied to the men (according to the sages).

[muman613]

Does anyone ever suggest that our father Abraham actually prayed for the wicked of Sodom and Amora?

No they don't because he did not pray for the wicked of Sodom. He prayed for the righteous of Sodom to be spared of the destruction. I too, in the spirit of Abraham, pray for the righteous of Syria to be spared the destruction which may come as a result of the wicked leaders of Syria who threaten their own people, and Israel.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Silliness. 

Yes, because "OH SHUT UP FOR ONCE" is the exemplar of respect.

The only reason I yelled is because, you are RUDE to people.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Edu,

Do you suggest that all 'enemies' of Israel deserve to have their children exterminated? Also as several here have made the error of assuming all those who were killed in this attack are A) Muslim, B) Enemies of Israel, C) Deserved death I am saying that we do not know whether Syrian Christians or non-Muslims were killed in the attack.

 First off for the record they were Muslims who were killed. Sunni Muslims. And about the Syrian Christians- they were and are on Assads side. They also were a major factor and proponents of Arab nationalism in the region. They did this for their own purposes but you see that were they major contributors to Arab nationalism and they brought this concept to the ME. They also participated and instigated a lot of the wars against Israel. In fact we can see what is going on in Egypt and Syria as a war about Arab nationalism vs. Islamism (and their goal of an Islamic "
Uuma" or Calafa (Califate). The Christians in these areas are part of the Arab nationalism and have always been major contributors and proponents of such.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

First off for the record they were Muslims who were killed. Sunni Muslims. And about the Syrian Christians- they were and are on Assads side. They also were a major factor and proponents of Arab nationalism in the region. They did this for their own purposes but you see that were they major contributors to Arab nationalism and they brought this concept to the ME. They also participated and instigated a lot of the wars against Israel. In fact we can see what is going on in Egypt and Syria as a war about Arab nationalism vs. Islamism (and their goal of an Islamic "
Uuma" or Calafa (Califate). The Christians in these areas are part of the Arab nationalism and have always been major contributors and proponents of such.

Somebody posted about Christian nationalism in Egypt, I think. But I can't remember where?

[edu]

To Muman613
We say in the Passover Hagada the passage from Tehillim Psalms chapter 79

Pour out thy wrath upon the nations that do not know thee, and upon the kingdoms that do not call upon thy name; for they have devoured Yaakov (Jacob) and laid waste his dwelling place.

Why doesn't Asaf the author of that Psalm pray to G-d like Avraham (Abraham) to have mercy upon the nations because there might be innocent people among them?
One answer (and there are additional ones) is that Sdome (Sodom) for all their evil were not guilty of the crimes, "for they have devoured Yaakov (Jacob) and laid waste his dwelling place".
But Syria which is guilty of this crime, it is certainly fitting to request of G-d to Pour out his wrath against them.
Here I am only focusing on the issue of National Vengeance.
There are however, additional reasons to be happy about the Syrian Civil War.