Author Topic: Triangle K  (Read 9074 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Triangle K
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2013, 05:55:32 PM »
Some communities hold it is forbidden others do not & it is according to your community & rav.

 I was asking from a Halachic perspective and I thought you would and are qualified to discuss it perhaps.
 Or put in a different way why those who say it is forbidden do soo, why do you (or they) hold that way.

 Also about community- I don't necessary think soo (maybe unless you can prove otherwise). This is a question of an interpretation of a Halacha and not a Gezirah perhaps. A communities Rav can be mistaken as well and not everyone would necessarily be bound to that Psak is they either have another Rav or they are able to determine the Halacha to be otherwise (both for those who would be more strict and those who would be more lenient in the case).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline ChabadKahanist

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Re: Triangle K
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2013, 11:39:02 PM »
I was asking from a Halachic perspective and I thought you would and are qualified to discuss it perhaps.
 Or put in a different way why those who say it is forbidden do soo, why do you (or they) hold that way.

 Also about community- I don't necessary think soo (maybe unless you can prove otherwise). This is a question of an interpretation of a Halacha and not a Gezirah perhaps. A communities Rav can be mistaken as well and not everyone would necessarily be bound to that Psak is they either have another Rav or they are able to determine the Halacha to be otherwise (both for those who would be more strict and those who would be more lenient in the case).
Based on shulchan aruch on the fear that Goyim might use milk from a non-kosher animal also according to chasidus cholov nochri polutes your mind & your heart.
Most chareidim use strictly chlolov yisroel.
Only thing I make an exception is butter because butter can only be made from cow's milk.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Triangle K
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2013, 12:02:13 AM »
Based on shulchan aruch on the fear that Goyim might use milk from a non-kosher animal also according to chasidus cholov nochri polutes your mind & your heart.
Most chareidim use strictly chlolov yisroel.
Only thing I make an exception is butter because butter can only be made from cow's milk.


 My understanding is that it is permitted under the circumstances of the Shulhan Aruch (which bases it on the Gemarah). Probably a situation of a Safek Sfeka

Machonshilo-
 The Talmudh Yerushalmi Avodha Zara 2:9 (Vilna 2:  8   ) gives two reasons why milk bought from a non-Jew was decreed to be asur:
a) giluy (i.e. a poisonous creature may have excreted venom into the milk if left uncovered);
b) the possible admixture of milk from a non-kosher animal.
The Talmudh Bavli AZ 35b gives only the latter reason.
The last Mishna of that 2nd chapter of AZ (39b) and both Talmudhim state that if the Jew can see the non-Jew milking - or even if the non-Jew thinks the Jew might be able to see him and therefore would not risk doing anything that he knows the Jew will not accept such as adding milk from a non-kosher animal - the milk is permitted. See Rambam's MT Maakhaloth Asuroth 3:15 (or 3:17).  From all this we see plainly that if there is good reason to believe that the milk before us is in fact from a kosher animal, the milk is mutar. (Regarding giluy, almost no-one today is mahmir about giluy as venomous snakes and the like are not common in our homes today, as pointed out by almost all the Rishonim).

http://www.kashrut.org/forum/viewpost.asp?mid=51020&highlight=
 He says dairy is fine in Israel.

 About the second part- for me irrelevant to a Halahic discussion.

 Also if the Shulhan Aruch differs from the Talmudh if you have the exact source maybe share it.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Triangle K
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2013, 12:05:43 AM »

Shulchan Aruch/Yoreh Deah 115

Paragraph 1:

Milk that was milked by non-Jews and no Jew saw them do so, it is forbidden as perhaps non-kosher milk was mixed in. If it was milked in his house and a Jew was sitting outside, if it is known that there is no non-kosher animal in his herd, it is permitted, even if no Jew is able to see him at the time that he milks the animal. If he has a non-kosher animal in his herd, and the Jew sits outside, and the non-Jew is milking only for the sake of the Jew, even if the Jew is unable to see him when he is sitting, if he is able to see him when he stands, this is permitted, because the non-Jew fears that perhaps he will stand and be seen, and he knows that non-kosher milk is forbidden the to Jew.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Shulchan_Aruch/Yoreh_Deah/115

.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline ChabadKahanist

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Re: Triangle K
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2013, 12:49:09 AM »
What you quoted is correct,some people are machmir though