Where and how I disagree with Chaim.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Everybody:

I LOVE the vast majority of what our dearly beloved National Chairman Chaim ben Pesach claims and argues for. I have never known any other political/philosophical leader who is so passionate, so principled, and so very correct. I would actually put him just a rung below the L-rd and the great heroes of the Bible, such as King David, Paul, Elijah, Abraham, Moses, etc.

I truthfully agree with 99% of what he has to say.

But...

The 1% where I do differ from him is an area where I would very much like to see some reconsideration and reflection. Chaim, if you are reading this, know that I say this out of love and not criticism, but I really think you have an overly optimistic/rosy view of Israeli Jewry. I know where you are coming from, and I know that you are trying to encourage us to give it all a 110% effort, but I do not foresee a great majority of Israelis coming around to our message, as rational and commonsensical as it is.

What I foresee is, ultimately, a situation where about 40% of Israelis (the youth and the religious) will be deadlocked against 60% of Israelis (who support the establishment), and will not prevail without a great miracle from heaven. What I am trying to tell you is that we must remember that the victory in Israel (and America) will ultimately come through the blessing of Hashem alone, and not a popularity contest.

I have zero doubt that RIGHT NOW the vast majority of Israelis are wicked self-haters. You might not disagree with that, but you would assert that they are brainwashed, do not know that we exist as a viable third option to Labor/Kadima and Likud, etc., and you might be correct, but right now, I think most of us would agree with my basic assertion. Will many more come around? I don't know. I have a gut hunch that a HUGE percentage of Israelis are conscious and deliberate self-hating kapos and will never change--maybe 40 or 50% or more than that.

History agrees with me. In the 1930s/40s, a vast, vast majority of European Jews obeyed every order of the Nazis and their local puppets/sycophants, knowingly marching to their own deaths in the ovens because they believed death as "loyal European citizens" was preferable to militant resistance. In the late '40s, when Israel was still British Nazi Fagestine, a majority of Israeli colonists (who came from communist/socialist ideologies in Europe) were kapos who ratted out Stern members to the British Nazis. All throughout ben GAYrion's (ys"vz) reign, Israelis kept their mouths shut when religious Sephardic kids were confiscated from their parents and raised to be good little Labor atheistic commies. The list goes on and on. Rabbi Kahane was kicked out of office in Israel and not a peep from the entire nation (well, there was a peep alright, a peep of jubilation from the Bolsheviks and phony "right"); you were expelled from Israel by the supposedly-religious Shas Party (the same Shas that some JTF members claim it is a sin to criticize in any way); Tatiana Susskind was charged by the "rightist" prime minister Penis Netanyahoo with "defiling Islam" and sentenced to 38 years in prison and all of the so-called rightist Jews in Arutz Seven and all the other pseudo-right cliques praised the move because it supposedly proved that "we are not like the Arabs, we enforce the law impartially", and I could go on ad infinitem.

Chaim, the entire Bible--both Testaments (for the Jews, the Tanach, and for the Christians here, the New Testament) teach that the nation of Israel, physically and spiritually, is sick and in desperate need of redemption. This goes back to the beginnings of the Jewish nation. Ancient Israelites wanted to have peace with the Canaanites, Egyptians, Philistines, Chaldeans, etc. and not fight. They just wanted to lead quiet, prosperous, undisturbed lives. They killed prophets that said otherwise, and followed all of the satanic idols that their pre-Islamic butcher "neighbors" worshipped. As punishment for this, G-d gave them over to the hands of their satanic Nazi enemies time and time again.

I love the Jewish people with all of my heart and soul because it is my own heritage, but I am not going to refrain from criticizing leftist and self-hating Jews, or minimize the problem that they are, just because it looks harsh and judgmental. The only way we will save Israel is if we are honest with our real problem, and let me tell you--our real problem is not Arab Nazis or Euronazis.

Our real problem is not even the Israeli Bolshevist government and media machinery.

Our real problem are average Joe and Jane middle-class Israelis in Tel Aviv, west Jerusalem, Haifa, the kibbutzim, etc. who figure that by selling 6% of Israeli Jews down the river the Arabs will leave them alone, taxes will go down, they can afford a nice new car, and retire early.

And no, we can't beat them through mass appeals alone. Even if forced to watch ten JTF different videos a day for the next two years, most of these fat, lazy cows would STILL hate us and demand national suicide.

We will only win control of Israel by the hand and grace of G-d. We must, must pray and encourage our brothers and sisters in the Lord, Jew and Christian, to lift up our cause to him just the same, tirelessly, day after day, night after night. We don't have any power at all, but the L-rd has infinite power, and he will do whatever it takes to bring himself glory and praise in this situation. I am not saying we should stop making videos and getting our name out, but I urge you all to remember that prayer is our most effective weapon.

Chaimfan.

[DownwithIslam]

Chaimfan I do agree with you to a small extent but I believe you are a little off base here(You know that we think alike chaimfan and I believe you are one of the few people on here as right wing as me). If you remember, Rabbi Kahane got a seat in the knesset and was projected to get over ten before his assasination. The Israeli public was loving his message and he was becoming popular by leaps and bounds. The establishment went against the will of the people by banning him. Most people don't want him banned but the establishment doesn't care what the people want. An analogy can be drawn from the Mcain-Kennedy immigration bill. The people are overwhelmingly against having cookarachas running wild here but those two monsters were trying to shove it down our throats. True the bill was dropped for now only because the phony conservatives on the air thaught it would be better for their ratings or whatever to go against it. In bolshevik Israel, their is no right wing media because the establishment is even more powerful their. When the Israeli public is further exposed to Chaim, we will see what happens.

[EagleEye]

Often the internal enemy is what stops people from overcoming the external one.

[RationalThought110]

"What I foresee is, ultimately, a situation where about 40% of Israelis (the youth and the religious) will be deadlocked against 60% of Israelis (who support the establishment), and will not prevail without a great miracle from heaven. What I am trying to tell you is that we must remember that the victory in Israel (and America) will ultimately come through the blessing of Hashem alone, and not a popularity contest. " 


I think that a lot of Israelis are uneducated that they could have alternatives to their establishment.  They don't know who the true alternatives are.  When Avigdor Lieberman promises that he won't force Israel to go to pre-1967 borders, many probably believe him. 


So if most (if not all) Israelis are able to learn the truth, I'd like to think that the percentage will be higher than 40%. 

[DownwithIslam]

The fact that Likud and Avigdor lieberman get a lot of votes means that Israelis would vote for Chaim.

[Shlomo]

C.F., I know you mean well and said some nice things about the Jewish people but some of your post is off base.

I have zero doubt that RIGHT NOW the vast majority of Israelis are wicked self-haters.

I, especially, disagree with this. I think it fits for the majority of the government there... but not the Jewish nation in Israel. It's dangerous to say such things.

[Trumpeldor]

Our real problem are average Joe and Jane middle-class Israelis in Tel Aviv, west Jerusalem, Haifa, the kibbutzim, etc. who figure that by selling 6% of Israeli Jews down the river the Arabs will leave them alone, taxes will go down, they can afford a nice new car, and retire early.

Chaimfan,

I feel your disdain for the Kadimanik but I disagree with your main point that they are our biggest obstacle in the struggle to save Israel.

Remember that these same Joe and Jane Israelis have parents and grandparents who built and sacrificed for the country. In my view, they are political lemmings who are being tricked into committing national suicide by traitor politicians who are willing to give away half the damn country in order to ensure that the followers of Moses do not triumph over the followers of Marx.

JTF's message is agreeable to the average Israeli, Chaimfan. Even leftist polls show that Israelis want the Arabs to leave. It is our job to give Chaim the platform needed to deliver his uncompromising message.

[Dr. Dan]

I also disagree as you know, CF

I am under the belief that even left-wing Jews and even many so called "self-hating" Jews are truly self-hating...(there are some that truely hate Judaism and might as convert to Islam)..but anyway,  These left wing jews..the vast majority of them to me are terribly misguided Jews.  They want the same peace we right wingers want. HOwever, those left wing jews go about it differently and incorrectly. The only way for real peace is the way we are trying to achieve it.

We more or less have the same intention..but the left wing Israeli govt has failed the first 60 years..now we need to give a real right wing group a chance to see what it can achieve.

[Lisa]

I'm going to defend Chaimfan. 

He's saying the exact same thing that my mother often says to me, but in somewhat harsher language. 

My mother said many times that Israelis are tired of fighting, and that they just want to be able to freely go about their lives, without having to worry about getting blown up.  And she has a point.  Many Israelis come from Western democracies, and are used to living good, civilized lives.  But unfortunately for them, the moose-limbs do not care about being civilized or living well.  They just want to kill, kill, kill. 

Another thing is, many Israelis seem to be Jewish in name only.  I have personally seen this on a past trip to Israel, where my tour guides were Jewish born atheists.  I also used to know a well to do Israeli girl, who was not religious at all.  She was a big fan of Ehud Barak for getting Israel out of Lebanon.  Another thing she told me was how Israelis make fun of how religious Jews lifting up brides and grooms in chairs at wedding celebrations. 

I could go on about this.  Remember that Eurovision contest of a few years ago, where the Israeli contestant was a transsexual?  Or how about the gay pride parades, where homosexuals make fun of Chasidic Jews (the JTF web site had a picture of that a few years ago)? 

Then there's also that excellent video that one of the members put up here last week about Israel and the Ishmaelites.  Notice how that narrator pointed out that with each of Israel's past victories, no thanks was given to G-d? 

So what I am saying is let's not gang up on the messenger here. 

[Dr. Dan]

Dont' get me wrong, Lisa. CF is saying nothign wrong or hateful. It is an interesting observation and he might be right..i just respectfully disagree with him now. I think this whole thing about self=hating and left wing Jews depends on how one wants to look at the problem...is the glass half full or half empty?

[Lisa]

David Horowitz, on his web site Frontpagemag.com, often writes about left wing college professors, and sometimes includes the Israeli lefties.  And from what I've read thus far, they are an especially vicious, nasty bunch.  They will teach Israelis that Israel has no right to exist, and other such nonsense. 

Now that's not to say there aren't any good, right wing proud Israelis.  It's just that there are far too few of them, from what I can tell.

Lisa

[mord]

Avigdor lieberman get a lot of votes means that Israelis would vote for Chaim.

  He's the biggest fraud worse then the likud

[Muck DeFuslims]

C.F. makes some realistic and accurate observations.

It's his conclusions that I can't agree wholeheartedly with.

It's fine to say 'prayer is our most effective weapon' and 'We will only win control of Israel by the hand and grace of G-d', but that doesn't mean we stop using alternative actions, tactics and methods to change the status quo, while we pray.

I'm not suggesting this is what C.F. is advocating. Just making an observation.

Similarly, in other posts, C.F., and others, have made the accurate observation that the IDF is oft times used as a tool by the self-hating Knesset Bolsheviks to oppress and ethnically cleanse parts of Eretz Yisrael of it's most noble Jewish citizens.

It's the conclusion that Jews should refuse to serve in the IDF, that I disagree with. Israel must stand ready to defend herself and fight the Moozie enemy. Effective armies can not be assembled overnight, and we mustn't forget that Israel faces an existential threat. So for this reason, while I agree that C.F., and others, have a valid point about how the IDF is currently utilized, I still think it's essential that Jews serve in the IDF.

I only bring this up in this thread, because I feel it's somewhat analagous to the original intent of C.F.'s starting post.

It's one thing to make accurate observations, it's another thing to draw realistic conclusions and formulate pragmatic methodology to change the unacceptable status quo.

The important thing is, while we might have differences over the tactics and strategies we employ, our goals and objectives are uniformly shared by all.

We will prevail.

[newman]

The tactics used by the left are the same all over the western world. They all try to delegitimise their own countries because this is what must be done in order to transmogrify the country into the new socialist model they desire. Destroy/ delegitimise first....transmogrify second.

[Joe Gutfeld]

I like some of the stories that Chaim tells on the Ask JTF or the old shows that are on QPTV.  I wish he tells more of those stories.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

An analogy can be drawn from the Mcain-Kennedy immigration bill. The people are overwhelmingly against having cookarachas running wild here but those two monsters were trying to shove it down our throats. True the bill was dropped for now only because the phony conservatives on the air thaught it would be better for their ratings or whatever to go against it. In bolshevik Israel, their is no right wing media because the establishment is even more powerful their. When the Israeli public is further exposed to Chaim, we will see what happens.

Don't forget that Americans, as secular and complacent as they are, are generally not yet insane in the way that self-hating Israelis (who are the majority of Israelis) are. As lazy and immoral as we (Americans) are, most of us still don't think giving the country to bin Laden would be a good thing. There are self-hating American POLITICIANS, but genuine self-hating traitor American citizens are still a minority, probably no more than 20% or so.

Israel's Bolshevist regime is a more-or-less one-party autocracy, but come on--it isn't a mass-murder police state the way Hussein's (ys"vz) Iraq or Mao's China was. The Israeli government can beat and imprison small groups of dissidents, but they don't have the apparatus and ability to send 25 or 30% of the population to concentration camps/gulags.

I made this thread to be a stark challenge to all of us. Let's assign accountability where it is due. I agree with you that we are two of the most rightist members of the forum, but for me, loving the nation of Israel and loving Jews means being willing and able to call them to the carpet when they are killing themselves just like the prophets of the Bible did.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

C.F., I know you mean well and said some nice things about the Jewish people but some of your post is off base.

I have zero doubt that RIGHT NOW the vast majority of Israelis are wicked self-haters.

I, especially, disagree with this. I think it fits for the majority of the government there... but not the Jewish nation in Israel. It's dangerous to say such things.

Jeffguy, I am not singling out Jews--well, I suppose that I am (in the area of self-hatred). I also believe the vast majority of Americans are immoral, lazy, decadent pigs. The vast majority of Americans by opinion poll said Clinton's (yimach schmo) affair with Monica Lewinsky was a victimless crime and that the Republicans were being terrible zealots by making a big deal of this.

[MarZutra]

I think, like the Americans now, are so fed up with the corruption, catering to enemies, elitism, detachment from public opinion that they have, for the most part, given up.  This is exactly what they, the elitists and their leftist savages wanted.  With the Right "out of the way" they are free to ruin, hack away and make the "Great Utopia". 

In my humble opinion, the only way Israel will change, given the past 60+ years of Socialism being psychologically conditioned within every aspect or Israeli society/culture, is for a righteous "Dr. Baruch Goldstein" to liberate the Knesset of its Amelek/Erev Rav rot.  A Jewish General Agusto Pinochet military coup for a few years to truly clean out Israel of its' anti-Jew, traitorous, murderous/terrorist rot: Muslims, Communists, Black Hebrews and all other anti-Jews....would be a blessing in my opinion..

my two cents...  any continually praying...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Lisa:

Thank you very much for defending me. I knew that my thread would cause a stir, and that was precisely the intent. I said something that to me is obvious that I think our esteemed National Chairman should reflect on. The whole reason I am a Kahanist is because I respect no sacred cows, like to challenge friends and foes alike, say what people need to hear instead of what they would like to hear, and generally speaking consider G-d to be my only authority. I think it is very much accurate to say that the Jewish nation (literal and figurative) is benighted by a satanic cloak of suicidal madness that inflicts no other religion on earth, just like it is a no-brainer that Islam is the most savage and heinous "religion" in human history.

I totally agree with Chaim that there is a big latent base that would support Kahanism if they knew that it existed and I totally believe that our organization is growing among Israeli youth by leaps and gigantic bounds. Where I differ would be where he says that if we had the ability to get the word out we would take over Israel in ten years. I just don't think we have a way of knowing that. I think we could become a major force, but I darn near know for a fact that ascending to real power in the Holy Land would require divine participation on a Mosaic level. I just think that we should not base our optimism on projected popularity, but rather the fact that G-d is on tiny Israel's side.

Just wait and see till I make a thread about Christianity (expect it within the next couple of weeks.  ). I suspect that will cause an even greater stir.

Everybody: Just to keep things clear, I do not advocate that we all be Christian Scientists and do absolutely nothing but pray in order to solve our problems. We need to keep doing exactly what we are AND exhort our membership to get into some real personal spiritual warfare on behalf of tiny Israel and America. I know that JTF has to appeal to the secular as well, but I don't think Chaim urging our religious members to pray and fast and the like would turn anybody off who already supports us.

[Dr. Dan]

An analogy can be drawn from the Mcain-Kennedy immigration bill. The people are overwhelmingly against having cookarachas running wild here but those two monsters were trying to shove it down our throats. True the bill was dropped for now only because the phony conservatives on the air thaught it would be better for their ratings or whatever to go against it. In bolshevik Israel, their is no right wing media because the establishment is even more powerful their. When the Israeli public is further exposed to Chaim, we will see what happens.

Don't forget that Americans, as secular and complacent as they are, are generally not yet insane in the way that self-hating Israelis (who are the majority of Israelis) are. As lazy and immoral as we (Americans) are, most of us still don't think giving the country to bin Laden would be a good thing. There are self-hating American POLITICIANS, but genuine self-hating traitor American citizens are still a minority, probably no more than 20% or so.

Israel's Bolshevist regime is a more-or-less one-party autocracy, but come on--it isn't a mass-murder police state the way Hussein's (ys"vz) Iraq or Mao's China was. The Israeli government can beat and imprison small groups of dissidents, but they don't have the apparatus and ability to send 25 or 30% of the population to concentration camps/gulags.

I made this thread to be a stark challenge to all of us. Let's assign accountability where it is due. I agree with you that we are two of the most rightist members of the forum, but for me, loving the nation of Israel and loving Jews means being willing and able to call them to the carpet when they are killing themselves just like the prophets of the Bible did.

I respect what you have to say, but have you lived in Israel like you've lived in the United States?  Do you hang out with Israelis everyday to create this description of them?  Or is all tha tyou know about Israelis based on what you've heard and merely observed based on what takes place on the news?

Personally, I haven't been in Israel in a very long time nor do I know that many iSraelis..so i can't judge them with your point of view nor from the opposing point of view.

You are entitled to your opinion, but i find it hard to believe that Israelis, in general, are as insane as you seem to be making them.  They definately aren't a bunch of hippies.  And they live life for the current day and not a few years from now unlike americans. Americans don't live on the edge. Israelis, by culture, are taught to live by the day...and it is because of their understanding of the true demon which they would slay if they ahd the chance to do it.

On that note, if yo uhave a nation that lives by the day as if it is their last, they have a much tougher time planning far ahead in the future, unlike americans. 

On that same note, it seems that Gd is preparing them and us Jews to only live by the day as if it were our last.  If we lived as if it were our last day, all of us would be doing much more in life to do good deeds. This is how Jews really ought to live as prescribed by Torah.  Therefore, what Israelis go through in their culture is meant to ease them into the days of the moshiach...

ok i went off a tangent..so sue me! 

[Shlomo]

Jeffguy, I am not singling out Jews--well, I suppose that I am (in the area of self-hatred). I also believe the vast majority of Americans are immoral, lazy, decadent pigs. The vast majority of Americans by opinion poll said Clinton's (yimach schmo) affair with Monica Lewinsky was a victimless crime and that the Republicans were being terrible zealots by making a big deal of this.

ChaimFan, I know what you are saying and I understand where you are coming from. I just try to be careful when it comes to the Jewish people. We've endured a LOT and been through a LOT. Naturally, these things have affected us and many Jewish people do have that "beaten wife syndrome" where they think "if only I hadn't spilled the coffee!".

I meant no disrespect towards you and I hope that I wasn't too brash. I'm a little exhausted and not as careful as I should be with my words. I am, also, protective of the Jewish people because of my love for them and my deep love for Israel. G-d willing, JTF can get that message to them and we can bring the redemption like it talks about in the Torah.

You are a great poster on this forum and I think it's wonderful we can debate each other and still care so deeply.

jeffguy

[RationalThought110]

This is the type of person we're against, copy/pasted from another forum:

[ 
"..here your Israeli leftist/secular government is releasing Arab terrorists by the hundreds..who murdered your brethen . and will come back and try again.. while they are filling up the beating and filling up the jails with Jewish youngsters trying to save the Land of Israel from becoming another Hamas base.."

(the following is in response to above post" 

We're very sorry, but these so-called "Jewish Youngsters" that you speak of are engaging in actions of a seditious nature, they are acting against the stated policy of the Israeli Government, and will be treated accordingly. You don't like that? Too bad. Adjust your behaviour or accept the consequences of your actions. But do us all a favor and get off the "victim" bus. You provoked a situation and now you'll reap the whirlwind.

"Whose side are you on anyway?"

My side. Which as it happens, is the side of about 5,000,000 other people in the State of Israel.]



So this supporter of the Bolsheviks believes that most Israelis are on his side and want to go to pre-1967 borders. 

[RationalThought110]

How's this in response to the Bolshevik supporter whose post I posted above:

     It's interesting that you like to bash the Bush administration but basically rubber-stamp the Israeli government.  If you think Bush lacks leadership, you shouldn't be shocked that Olmert's leadership is even worse. 

     
      After last summer's war, Olmert came to D.C. so he could hear Bush Jr. tell him "I have great confidence in you, Prime Minister Olmert."  It doesn't matter to him if he failed the Israeli people as long as he received words of confidence from D.C. 

   
     And no, this doesn't apply to only Olmert nor to Bush Jr.  Ehud Barack basically told Bill Clinton, "I'll do whatever you ask of me, President Clinton." 


    Since Olmert's approval rating is so low, I guess most Israelis must really agree with his policies just like you do.  But then if they actually did, his approval rating wouldn't be so dismal. 

[newman]

Jeffguy, I am not singling out Jews--well, I suppose that I am (in the area of self-hatred). I also believe the vast majority of Americans are immoral, lazy, decadent pigs. The vast majority of Americans by opinion poll said Clinton's (yimach schmo) affair with Monica Lewinsky was a victimless crime and that the Republicans were being terrible zealots by making a big deal of this.

ChaimFan, I know what you are saying and I understand where you are coming from. I just try to be careful when it comes to the Jewish people. We've endured a LOT and been through a LOT. Naturally, these things have affected us and many Jewish people do have that "beaten wife syndrome" where they think "if only I hadn't spilled the coffee!".

I meant no disrespect towards you and I hope that I wasn't too brash. I'm a little exhausted and not as careful as I should be with my words. I am, also, protective of the Jewish people because of my love for them and my deep love for Israel. G-d willing, JTF can get that message to them and we can bring the redemption like it talks about in the Torah.

You are a great poster on this forum and I think it's wonderful we can debate each other and still care so deeply.

jeffguy

I'm not without some sympathy for the outlook of the average Israeli today. I don't mean the raving judenrat, leftist minority or the sell-outs in the knesset. I mean the average Jew in Israel.

After 2000 years of torture and genocide without a country of their own, they finally come home. With nothing more than clapped out, home-made or surplus weapons they survive. With little more than shovels and tinned herring they build.

Now after more than half a century of constant hardship, war, hate, isolation and poverty they've built a rich nation with an advanced economy with high paying jobs and shopping malls. Now, finally all they want is the chance to be normal....like us. You know.....have the normal life that we in diaspora have taken for granted for the entire post-war era. To work, cosume, party and drive the new car to the mall. They are,infact desperate for it. So desperate that they'll do anything for it. Can you blame them?

A sensible, rational, prudent person is stricken with cancer. They desperately want to live and see their childen grow. So desperate do they bocome, they sometimes buy the snake oil of the quack or huckster. Can you really blame them for setting their normal common sense aside under such circumstances?

The average Israeli is not The Charedi, the suicidal leftist,  the erev rav hater of all things religious or even the religious zionist. They are just average Jews who want the normal human existance we can take as a given in the comfort of the nations. Desperate, through no fault of theirs they have been seduced by the clever sales pitch of evil men. The quacks offering the snake oil and wonder cures of disengagement and appeasement have found what such men always seek.....a mass of desperate shoppers.

So by all means......let us curse the leftist teacher who pollutes the minds of Israel's children with doubt and self-hate. Let us curse the corrupt politicians who place self glorification and personal wealth above Ahavat Yisrael. Let us curse the marxist who despises anything religious and let us attack the traitor who sides with the muslim-nazi enemy. But let  us NOT attack our desperate and frightened Jewish brothers of the majority who have made bad choices only because they have been denied an alternative by an evil elite minority.

[DownwithIslam]

I know where Chaimfan is coming from on this. Even though I don't think he is correct, the kike worms in Israel are making themselves heard more than the right wing ones so I can see how people can come to this conclusion.