Question about left-wing rabbis

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Everybody, but especially the Jewish Torah scholars here,

Here is my dilemma: Chaim and several other JTF leaders either outright say it is a sin to curse/condemn left-wing rabbis or say that it might be. Supposedly, the Torah states that it is a crime to curse a Torah leader. (I don't know what verses are involved--perhaps someone can enlighten me?)

I don't believe G-d would command us to never attack an evil religious authority. It does not make sense. The notion that there are some people that must never be condemned is idolatry. G-d would never support making some people infallible kings who are beyond any accountability.

As far as I know, the Bible says that evil Jews (and why that wouldn't include evil rabbis I do not know) are called Erev Rav rodefs and should be treated as traitors to their people and at a minimum cast out of the land of Israel. Who would argue that Satmar rabbis, for instance, are not rodefs?

Chaimfan

[mord]

I'm not a scholar of the torah but many of these 'so called Rabbi's' should be tried for impersonating a rabbi

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I agree, but there are a couple members here who say you will go to hell for criticizing them. A couple people here have said it is a mortal sin to not just criticize them, but to criticize anything about the Shas Party at all.

I am not advocating that we just flame them willy-nilly--I legitimately want some Torah commentary on the subject.

[Lisa]

Chaimfan, I'm not a Torah scholar, but I think it's fine to just disagree with left wing rabbis using facts to back up your argument.  When in doubt, keep it civil.  That's exactly what Chaim did on a past Ask JTF show when he was asked what he thought of that WWII pope. 

[mord]

Yes but the nevi'im Prophets repramainded evil Jews harshly

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I myself am quite positive the Bible would call for evil rabbis to not just be condemned, but put to death. But I want to see a legitimate explanation of the opposite argument.

[Dr. Dan]

I myself am quite positive the Bible would call for evil rabbis to not just be condemned, but put to death. But I want to see a legitimate explanation of the opposite argument.

On that logic, if this was so to condemn someone to death, it would be just as easy for an evil rabbi to condemn a righteous one to death if he felt that the righteous one were evil.

I have to agree with Lisa. You have to argue civily even with left wing rabbis.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Danny, what is the difference between a lunatic Satmar "rabbi" condemning a righteous person to death and a Black Muslim imam saying that all whites are space aliens who should die?

[newman]

Danny, what is the difference between a lunatic Satmar "rabbi" condemning a righteous person to death and a Black Muslim imam saying that all whites are space aliens who should die?

Do muzzie shvartzas think we're aliens?

[Lubab]

Danny, what is the difference between a lunatic Satmar "rabbi" condemning a righteous person to death and a Black Muslim imam saying that all whites are space aliens who should die?

There's no difference. A few generations back these Neturei Karta traitors would have been badly beaten and maybe even killed by true TORAH Jews.

The Torah says we should kill a pursuer of Jewish blood.

And I think "left-wing" Rabbi is an oxymoron, if by "left-wing" you mean they want to endanger the lives of all the Jewish people in Israel.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe had no problem speaking out vociferously against these "Rabbis" in the harshest terms and I don't either.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

OK, by "left-wing rabbi" I meant Shas and Agudah rabbis who argue that the Arabs are actually our friends and that it is better to surrender Jewish land than to take Arab lives. I just see no difference between them and what Satmars do. Maybe they are a little more civil than the Satmar rebbes, but that is about it.

[Lubab]

OK, by "left-wing rabbi" I meant Shas and Agudah rabbis who argue that the Arabs are actually our friends and that it is better to surrender Jewish land than to take Arab lives. I just see no difference between them and what Satmars do. Maybe they are a little more civil than the Satmar rebbes, but that is about it.

I think I agree with you.

[Dominater96]

Danny, what is the difference between a lunatic Satmar "rabbi" condemning a righteous person to death and a Black Muslim imam saying that all whites are space aliens who should die?

Please dont call the Satmar rav a lunatic. Zionsim is a big part of Judaism. But it isnt the ONLY mitzvah. The satmar rav was one of the smartest rabbis in the world. The amount of torah that he knew is unimagineable. He just didnt believe that Zionism, or the establishment of a Jewish state was supposed to happen until the time of the messiah. And the Messiah didnt come yet, so he believes that we arent allowed to establish a Jewish state. Many scholars agree with him. Also do not DARE  compare the Satmar rav to a black muslim imam. JEWISH moderators: why do you tolerate this Person to call chachamim names. I know that you guys work with non Jews, but there is a limit to the amount of "being nice" to them when they do things like this.

[Lubab]

Danny, what is the difference between a lunatic Satmar "rabbi" condemning a righteous person to death and a Black Muslim imam saying that all whites are space aliens who should die?

Please dont call the Satmar rav a lunatic. Zionsim is a big part of Judaism. But it isnt the ONLY mitzvah. The satmar rav was one of the smartest rabbis in the world. The amount of torah that he knew is unimagineable. He just didnt believe that Zionism, or the establishment of a Jewish state was supposed to happen until the time of the messiah. And the Messiah didnt come yet, so he believes that we arent allowed to establish a Jewish state. Many scholars agree with him. Also do not DARE  compare the Satmar rav to a black muslim imam. JEWISH moderators: why do you tolerate this Person to call chachamim names. I know that you guys work with non Jews, but there is a limit to the amount of "being nice" to them when they do things like this.

Korah was also a great Torah scholar. G-d not only called him names but killed him and all his followers.
If Dominator96 was around in Korach's day he'd probably saying "leave him alone he's a Torah scholar".

Sell crazy somewhere else.

If someone is endangering Jewish lives by their actions, they are Rodef no matter how much Torah knowledge they have.

I think even Chaim puts on the kiddie gloves when talking about them so as not to hurt the movement. But the truth is the truth. The Torah demands that someone endangering Jewish lives be stopped at all costs. The Torah demands much harsher actions than simply calling them names.

[Lisa]

Dominater, I'm the chief global moderator here, and as far as I'm concerned, members here are free to either agree or disagree with rabbis, and other religious leaders, as long as they keep things civil. 

Regarding your beloved Satmar Rebbe, I am NOT going to censure one of our best, most loyal members over some rabbi who insisted that Hungarian Jews not to escape, when he himself managed to get his "tukhas" out of the country with Rudolph Kastner and his buddies.  In terms of Chaimfan comparing this rabbi to an imam, what are you getting so worked up about?  What would *you* call a rabbi who tells his congregation to do one thing (where they end up getting killed), when he does the exact opposite? 

[Dominater96]

Danny, what is the difference between a lunatic Satmar "rabbi" condemning a righteous person to death and a Black Muslim imam saying that all whites are space aliens who should die?

Please dont call the Satmar rav a lunatic. Zionsim is a big part of Judaism. But it isnt the ONLY mitzvah. The satmar rav was one of the smartest rabbis in the world. The amount of torah that he knew is unimagineable. He just didnt believe that Zionism, or the establishment of a Jewish state was supposed to happen until the time of the messiah. And the Messiah didnt come yet, so he believes that we arent allowed to establish a Jewish state. Many scholars agree with him. Also do not DARE  compare the Satmar rav to a black muslim imam. JEWISH moderators: why do you tolerate this Person to call chachamim names. I know that you guys work with non Jews, but there is a limit to the amount of "being nice" to them when they do things like this.

Korah was also a great Torah scholar. G-d not only called him names but killed him and all his followers.
If Dominator96 was around in Korach's day he'd probably saying "leave him alone he's a Torah scholar".

Sell crazy somewhere else.

If someone is endangering Jewish lives by their actions, they are Rodef no matter how much Torah knowledge they have.

I think even Chaim puts on the kiddie gloves when talking about them so as not to hurt the movement. But the truth is the truth. The Torah demands that someone endangering Jewish lives be stopped at all costs. The Torah demands much harsher actions than simply calling them names.

So you think that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rav Shach, The Satmar Rav, The rest of the Anti Zionist world, are rodfim?

[Dominater96]

And dont forget to include all of the Lubavitch rabbis, because Lubavitch was Anti Zionist before the rebbe.

[Lubab]

And dont forget to include all of the Lubavitch rabbis, because Lubavitch was Anti Zionist before the rebbe.

I'll tell you a little secret. We're still anti-Zionist. The Rebbe was anti-Zionist. Zionism is not nor ever was our concern. Our concern is Jewish lives.

[Dominater96]

I dont think you guys are "anti zioinist" Maybe neutral.So you think that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rav Shach, The Satmar Rav, The rest of the Anti Zionist world, are rodfim?

[Lubab]

Danny, what is the difference between a lunatic Satmar "rabbi" condemning a righteous person to death and a Black Muslim imam saying that all whites are space aliens who should die?

Please dont call the Satmar rav a lunatic. Zionsim is a big part of Judaism. But it isnt the ONLY mitzvah. The satmar rav was one of the smartest rabbis in the world. The amount of torah that he knew is unimagineable. He just didnt believe that Zionism, or the establishment of a Jewish state was supposed to happen until the time of the messiah. And the Messiah didnt come yet, so he believes that we arent allowed to establish a Jewish state. Many scholars agree with him. Also do not DARE  compare the Satmar rav to a black muslim imam. JEWISH moderators: why do you tolerate this Person to call chachamim names. I know that you guys work with non Jews, but there is a limit to the amount of "being nice" to them when they do things like this.

Korah was also a great Torah scholar. G-d not only called him names but killed him and all his followers.
If Dominator96 was around in Korach's day he'd probably saying "leave him alone he's a Torah scholar".

Sell crazy somewhere else.

If someone is endangering Jewish lives by their actions, they are Rodef no matter how much Torah knowledge they have.

I think even Chaim puts on the kiddie gloves when talking about them so as not to hurt the movement. But the truth is the truth. The Torah demands that someone endangering Jewish lives be stopped at all costs. The Torah demands much harsher actions than simply calling them names.

So you think that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rav Shach, The Satmar Rav, The rest of the Anti Zionist world, are rodfim?

Just being ant-Zionist does not make you a Rodef. But if you actively work to try to give away parts of Eretz Yisroel to her enemies who have sworn it's destruction-that is a Rodef.

Who falls in that category? It depends how much they've actually done.

Some of these people you mentioned come dangerously close.

[Dr. Dan]

harav Kahane said that Zionism was prescribed by Torah, not Theodore Herzl.

[RationalThought110]

Everybody, but especially the Jewish Torah scholars here,

Here is my dilemma: Chaim and several other JTF leaders either outright say it is a sin to curse/condemn left-wing rabbis or say that it might be. Supposedly, the Torah states that it is a crime to curse a Torah leader. (I don't know what verses are involved--perhaps someone can enlighten me?)

I don't believe G-d would command us to never attack an evil religious authority. It does not make sense. The notion that there are some people that must never be condemned is idolatry. G-d would never support making some people infallible kings who are beyond any accountability.

As far as I know, the Bible says that evil Jews (and why that wouldn't include evil rabbis I do not know) are called Erev Rav rodefs and should be treated as traitors to their people and at a minimum cast out of the land of Israel. Who would argue that Satmar rabbis, for instance, are not rodefs?

Chaimfan

But how could a rabbi claim to follow the Torah when claiming that gays should get married?   


What do you mean by a Satmar rabbi?

[Dominater96]

NO Orthodox rabbi says that gays can marry.

[jdl4ever]

I don't understand Lubab.  The "saving Jewish lives" crapshoot is what all the anti-Zionist self hating Charedim use.  They say "let's give Israel to the fakestinians if it means possibly saving one Jewish life".   The Torah commands us to settle Israel and conquer it as an eternal decree without exceptions even if it is dangerous to do so.  Remember what happened in the Prophets to that Kohen Gadol who thought he knew better and wanted to surrender to the enemy to save lives ... well, G-d punished him severely. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

There are rabbis who say that we should also work to spare Arab lives. How do you all feel about that?