Author Topic: The laws of Lashon Hara  (Read 3838 times)

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Offline Israel Chai

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The laws of Lashon Hara
« on: March 18, 2014, 11:59:33 AM »
Posted by a great member on a facebook group I made for Rabbi Mizrachi

The Gemara (Tractate) in Pesachim (3a) quotes: "A person should not speak in a negative way, as we see the Torah itself" went out of its way to speak nicely regarding the animals entering the Ark, describing the non-kosher animals as specifically that - non-kosher. It doesn't call them Tamei (Impure). The Torah "wastes" words in order to teach us the importance of speaking nicely. From this week's Parsha, Shemini, we have a problem with this Gemara. The Torah continually refers to non-kosher animals as Tamei (11:4 and others)! What happened to speaking nicely?

R' Mordechai Kamenetzky answers that the difference is that the story of the Ark is a narrative, which is when people should be careful to tell it over in a nice way, refraining from Lashon Hara (slander) or negativity of any sort. In our Parsha, however, the Torah describes the nitty-gritty laws of what one may eat. In our case, it’s important to give a resounding "TAMEI!" when discussing these matters, as the consequences are much graver. It should be the same when dealing with children and others around us who may not know better. We speak softly in order to get them to understand history, reasons and customs of Judaism. However, as the metaphor of food may hint at, if they are in imminent danger of internalizing negative influences, it's time to fearlessly admonish them! When dealing with clear right and wrong, the Torah tells us that sometimes it’s necessary to boldly speak where no one has spoken before!
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: The laws of Lashon Hara
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2014, 12:11:17 PM »
  Bunch of non-sense and LIES, yet again. When they speak all the trash against Israel, against Dati-Leumi and others its perfectly fine. They can get up and trash talk and even make up fallacies (lies) about others, and about the laws (sorry "decrees" as they like to call it) but then when they are answered back and are in the defensive they hide behind "let's not talk Lashon Hara". Tell your friend to do him/her self a favor and learn the laws of Lashon Hara and not just little tidbit's and know that when they speak publicly as well that they are responsible for their words and they can and should be called out publicly when need and can be and not hide behind a wall of "don't talk Lashon Hara" against me/us.

 What you are REALLY saying is that you want immunity to say the stupidest and wrongest things about others and about anything you want to without receiving the consequences of having your words and actions scrutinized.
 Secondly if this is the case I wonder why these same people don't firstly tell themselves about these laws and secondly to their leaders as well who are the one's who not only talk Lashon Hara but say Motzi Shem Ra and make up total fallacies and lies.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: The laws of Lashon Hara
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 12:24:58 PM »
Ugh, this again. OK, Tag, I'm going to ask you what you mean by them, and which part of the dvar Torah is a lie, and then you're going to post a video of Satmar. Let's just skip all that this time.

What do you mean by "my friend", though?
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: The laws of Lashon Hara
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 12:32:51 PM »
Ugh, this again. OK, Tag, I'm going to ask you what you mean by them, and which part of the dvar Torah is a lie, and then you're going to post a video of Satmar. Let's just skip all that this time.

What do you mean by "my friend", though?

"Posted by a great member on a facebook group "

 I thought it was your friend, ookay a member of your group.

------------------------------------

 This is brought only as a (possible) defense against what is said back against Haredim and such. Why none of this is posted when and while some of the Haredi leaders and speakers as well say nasty, evil and wrong things against other Jews. Why none of this isn't shown to them? Why only instead to those of us who stand up against their lies are we accused of "Lashon Hara" which isn't even true!
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: The laws of Lashon Hara
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 12:34:49 PM »
"Posted by a great member on a facebook group "

 I thought it was your friend, ookay a member of your group.

What don't you like about the dvar Torah? Assume your father said it, instead of assuming Satmar did.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: The laws of Lashon Hara
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 04:31:49 PM »
Tag,

You don't believe that there is a commandment forbidding Lashon Hara? Is that it?

It most certainly is a commandment, and I have posted about this many times, bringing the sources...

But it sometimes seems to me that you want to be able to speak evil about other Jews, you want to be a tale-bearer? Very odd..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The laws of Lashon Hara
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2014, 04:35:36 PM »
Even Rambam recognized this commandments... Your favorite source... Yet it seems you are denying it...



http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/chapter7-3a.html

Cynicism: The Joy of Inexistence, Part I

Chapter 7, Law 3(a)

"The Sages said: '[For] three sins a person is punished (lit., 'it is collected from a person') in this world, and he has no share in the World to Come: idolatry, incest / adultery, and murder. And the spreading of evil gossip (lashon hara) is equivalent to all three.' The Sages said further: 'Anyone who speaks lashon hara, it is as if he has denied G-d, as it is stated, '[...those] who said, 'Because of our tongues we will overpower, our lips are with us, who is master over us?'' (Psalms 12:5). And the Sages said further, 'Three does lashon hara kill: the one who says it, the one who accepts it, and the one who is spoken about. And the accepter more so than the speaker."

Last week the Rambam introduced the prohibition of lashon hara -- of spreading malicious gossip about one's fellow, in particular when the facts are true. (As last week, we'll use the Hebrew term below.) This week the Rambam quotes a small selection of rabbinic statements regarding the scope and severity of lashon hara, painting a clear image precisely how evil the prohibition is. Below I would like to examine these statements more closely. Not only are they sobering in their own right, but I believe if we understand them properly we will gain important insights into the precise evil of lashon hara.

An important side point which bears mention regards the Rambam's first statement -- that violators of cardinal sins receive no share in the hereafter. The commentators make it clear that this is only without repentance. Certainly man may repent all his sins -- till his last moments on earth, and by so doing merit a share in the World to Come. The Rambam himself, in his Laws of Repentance (3:14), after listing categories of heretics and the like who receive no share in the afterlife, states as follows:

"When is it the case that each of these has no share in the World to Come? When he dies without repentance. But if he repents his wickedness and [then] dies in a state of penitence, behold he is among those who receive a share in the World to Come. For there is nothing which stands in the way of repentance. Even if he denied G-d his entire life and at the last moment returns, he has a share, as it states, ''Peace! Peace to the far and the close!' says G-d, 'and I will heal him'' (Isaiah 57:19)."

The Rambam there continues that even if such people regretted their actions in the inner recesses of their hearts and at the last moments of their lives, their repentance is to some extent efficacious. It really is a world of love. G-d did not create us just to punish us make our lives difficult, but so that we'd cleave to Him and merit His closeness. No one, no matter how sinful he has been and regardless of his age and track record is "doomed". G-d waits till the very last moment for our devotion.

I'd like to now begin by examining the second statement of the Rambam. I feel it holds the key to understanding the others. The Rambam states (quoting Talmud Erchin 15b) that speaking lashon hara is akin to denying G-d. Now this statement seems extreme. We recognize, of course, that great damage can be done with loose lips, yet how in the world can any action, no matter how heinous, in any way approximate atheism? We all sin, sometimes seriously. Yet none of us could imagine in the darkest recesses of our hearts that G-d does not exist. (The Theory of Evolution? Don't make me laugh.) If so, how could the Talmud even venture such a comparison?

A straightforward explanation is actually implied by the Rambam himself elsewhere (Laws of Tumas Tsara'as 16:10). He explains that people who speak lashon hara do not content themselves with speaking about the lowly. Their cynicism then turns to the righteous, then to the prophets, in whose words they cast aspersions. Ultimately, such people will speak ill of G-d Himself, denying His goodness or justness. Thus, with such sins, one thing leads to another until the gossiper in some way denies G-d.

I believe, however, a much deeper idea is implied here. The Rambam is equating lashon hara to some of the most vile sins in existence. I don't believe his point is merely in how bad things can eventually get. He sees great evil in the sin itself, not only in what it may lead to. (There is also a compelling grammatical reason (which I won't get into) why I believe the Rambam here intends much more.)

Let me offer an important qualification before I go on. All of us are guilty of lashon hara on occasion. (Pardon me if I just insulted you -- I'd hate to be guilty of lashon hara while writing this class...) We all from time to time speak about things which should not be discussed. For the most part, though, most of us do not do so to crush and malign another human being. Lashon hara at its worst is the defamation of another person, attempting to ruin his reputation and perhaps his life. Very rarely do we sin with such malicious intent. Usually we'll blurt out things which happen to be good conversation items or which get us a little attention. Sometimes we'll even speak sympathetically about someone else's personal problems which should not be unjustly spread. Wrong this certainly is, but we're hardly speaking of the vicious libeling of another human being -- especially because we're often speaking about the ones we love most.

Based on this, I would be inclined to comment that when the Sages made such condemnatory statements about lashon hara, they weren't talking about *us*. (Criticism is never about *us* of course.) They were referring to lashon hara at its worst, something the mediocre likes of us rarely transgress.

There may be truth to this, yet at the same time we do not find the Talmud or later authorities making such distinctions -- between the bad and the bad. I suspect that the Sages rightly did not want us thinking in terms of "better" and "worse" gossip. Every act of unbridled speech has a taste of the most serious type -- and is certainly the sort of speech the victim would not want spread about him at all. We must treat all lapses in our speech with absolute vigilance -- as my grandfather OBM used to say, "Think twice before saying something -- and then don't say it!" A mouth is a tough thing to control. We must maintain absolute control in how we use it.

All of the above being said, I'd like to return to our question regarding heresy. Even at its absolute worst, how can lashon hara be equated to the denial of the Almighty?

Let us now begin to examine the psychology of the gossipmonger. I'm about to run out of space and will G-d-willing pick this up next week, but I'd like to establish some of the basic groundwork before we close. As we explained, at its worst, lashon hara implies the using of one's speech to destroy another human being -- to ruin his career, his relationships, and his life. But why would someone have a drive to do such? Of course some of the time it's because *he* hurt *me* very deeply on some past occasion, and I long for sweet revenge. But much more often we find people who are just negative and cynical towards virtually everyone, who never see the good and always assume the worst. I have no reason to hate him, yet I see nothing but bad in him and communicate my negative impressions to everyone who will listen. Why would someone view others so negatively without any real provocation?

The answer provides a profound insight into the workings of the human mind. I'll save it for next week, :-) but I'll conclude with the following open thought. Our mission in this world is to develop ourselves spiritually and improve. G-d created us with great potential for goodness, but it is a potential we must develop. Now the most powerful opposing force to personal growth is cynicism -- seeing the worst in mankind -- and somehow concluding from there that there's really no point trying ourselves. We will develop this idea further G-d willing next week.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The laws of Lashon Hara
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2014, 04:39:29 PM »
Tag,

Let me say that it is my belief that the Haredie leaders did engage in Lashon Hara and they deserve rebuke for it. I am not going to say that they did not use evil speech against the Religious Zionists and there is absolutely no forgiving them unless they accept the guilt that they have indeed transgressed, and they must make teshuva.

But then we must ask is it justified to speak lashon hara against one who has spoken lashon hara? I am of the belief that it is not permitted... Two wrongs do not make a right (not necessarily a Jewish belief, but applicable here).

Also, by LKZ posting this it is not an attack on you (I believe)... We all need to work together to rectify this world. We must be able to recognize what is wrong. We must be able to rebuke in a manner which does not push the other away, but pulls him in.


I am always reminded of the wisdom 'The left hand pushes away while the right hand pulls close'...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: The laws of Lashon Hara
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2014, 05:16:36 PM »
   Muman- I didn't speak Lashon Hara.
 
  It also wasn't just stam out of the blue. I pointed out that it Dafka came and comes AFTER we point out the problems in the Haredi world and about the words that they speak publicly (which doesn't constitute Lashon Hara).
 I also point and pointed to the fact that they should be rebuking the Haredi leadership instead of excusing those who speak out against their injustices as making "Lashon Hara" when in fact it is perfectly fine and good to do and isn't Lashon Hara in the least. Its in the Halachot as well.

 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.