Shalom

[Dan Ben Noah]

Shalom

[drlmg]

Oh well!!
 

[Every Jew AK47]

An Eye for an Eye!! Glad justice was served for that the poor innocent girl who was buried alive and probably died a much more horrible death than the barbarian who they executed.

Personally, I think they should bring back the firing squad..  Although, my only qualms with the firing squad is it is too quick of a death.. I think a 45 minute painful death is the way to go.. What happened to this guy should not be a cause of concern but a cause of inspiration.  If these murderers knew this was the way they would die, then they may think twice about torturing, raping and murdering people.   A majoirty of murderers don't even get the death penalty, but get to live nice comfortable lives in prison at the taxpayers expense for the rest of their life.

If we really want to save some of the tax burden, we should round up the murderers in our prison, perform mass executions and use their bodies for fertilizer to help grow food.  They could actually be used for something productive.

[Manch]

they should have buried him alive, this beast!

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/death-looms-for-clayton-lockett-years-after-killing-oklahoma-teen/article_e459564b-5c60-5145-a1ce-bbd17a14417b.html

[angryChineseKahanist]

An Eye for an Eye!!

he would have been a serious amputee.

[muman613]

I think it is terrible this is what execution has come to. It is not meant as a torture. It is meant as a punishment, and it should be humane.

As much as I would like retribution against evildoers, I think it is a moral imperative to make sure justice does not become mob mentality. The American justice system is based on the idea of no 'cruel of unusual punishment' and this so-called execution is a prime example of 'cruel and unusual'. A method of execution must be agreed on to ensure a certain death without much suffering.

[muman613]

http://www.torah.org/learning/livinglaw/5768/mishpatim.html

Capital Punishment: Courting Death

The Mitzvah

There was an obligation for the court to kill the one whose iniquity was punishable by death (Shemos 21:12; ibid 21:20). In the times of the Temple and in the presence of the Sanhedrin, Grand Jewish Court, the four death penalties prescribed by the Torah for various crimes were death by the sword, death by strangulation, death by fire and death by stoning (See Mishnah, Sanhedrin).

The Beth Din, Jewish court of law was the arbiter of justice. In all matters, it could not shirk from its obligations. That meant, even to use capital punishment.

Still, this was hardly an ideal situation. Rigorous investigations and testimony were in place beforehand. And the death penalty was certainly never glorified. In fact, the Talmud concedes that a Jewish court that executed once in 7 years, and according to another opinion, once in 70 years, was labeled a "murderous court" (Mishnah, Makkos 1:10).

Typically, the court sentence in other societies serves a number of functions. It acts as a deterrent against the crime; it is society's revenge against the criminal for the offence; it is punishment for the offender's infraction; and finally it can be construed as reparations for, or reformation of, the said perpetuator.

It comes as somewhat of a surprise to discover that the Jewish Beth Din does not set out to achieve any of these aforementioned objectives.

A Jew humbly realizes how justice lies outside his grasp. It is up to Master of the Universe to administer justice and to sort out the reward or punishment for his creatures. Thus, not only is man's input not necessary but it is also unhelpful. Here, man is way out of his league. Is it at all possible for a human court to fathom the mind of the criminal? Are they privy to the thoughts of his heart? Do they know his background and frame of mind? What about an absolute clarity of all the circumstances to the crime?

The charter of a Jewish court is primarily instituted to take action – where humanly possible – to remedy the situation when what is holy becomes desecrated, where what is pure becomes sullied. Rabbi Eliyahu Dessler explains how its intervention comes to redress the balance. Think of it as the necessary steps at "damage-control".

The Jewish court is entrusted with the mission "to get rid of the evil within your midst".

The impact of witnessing a wrong for the very first time provokes a reaction of shock and abject horror. The second occasion, however, is less dramatic. The third time, the onlooker begins to adopt an attitude of resignation. And thereafter, it becomes tolerated and even the development of spiritually numbness to the gravity of the crimes.

Originally, the violation of a divine decree was an exceptionally rare occurrence. Witness the isolated instances in the desert - the wood- gatherer on Shabbos and the blasphemer. On such occasions, the Beth Din stepped in to minimize the impact of this grave infraction which, if not addressed, would lead to a public desecration of G-d's Name. Their execution of the perpetrator was the definite communal signal of the grave consequences for one who dared defy the Torah.

Consequently, the two witnesses at the scene testifying to the crime were the most "at risk" from their exposure to this defiance; the ones most likely to be desensitized to the violation of G-d's Name. Accordingly, they had to play an active hand as the first ones to implement the Beth Din's death penalty, to expel the "evil" that may lurk within them; the evil which if not ejected might take root within their midst and that of their community. Never an ideal resolution, the lamentable nature of capital punishment was nevertheless a necessary step in the bid to recapture the sacred nature of every mitzvah that dare not be debased.

Where sin is rampant within every rank, where society has become so clueless of the far-reaching negative influence of sin, Beth Din cannot achieve this goal. Thus, where the loss of sanctity cannot be meaningfully reinstated, capital punishment would obviously prove an ineffective solution. In such circumstances were a Beth Din to kill once in 7 or 70 years without a direct consequence of this having a positive, beneficial influence of the Jewish people, such an institution was termed a "murderous court".

In contemporary times, it is important to boost our immunization towards the negative impact of sin. Our attitude upon hearing of evil and moral depravity in the prevalent culture should shock us to our Jewish core as we strive to develop sensitivities towards the sanctity of doing exclusively that what G-d wants of us.

[muman613]

These forms of punishment (at least fire and stoning) would actually be more painful than this guy got.  No one denies the sanctity of life, but we can go further than the justice system now allows against evil people and STILL be humane.

Stoning (according to descriptions I have heard) should be relatively quick and painless (aside from fear)... Stoning requires the condemned to be pushed off a high place so that he falls and breaks all his bones upon hitting the ground. Only then, if he still lives, do the people throw stones on him.

[muman613]

http://www.jlaw.com/Briefs/capital2.html

I. THE BIBLICAL OBLIGATION TO BE SENSITIVE TO FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS LED THE RABBIS TO PRESCRIBE THE LEAST PAINFUL AND LEAST DISFIGURING MEANS FOR IMPLEMENTING THE FOUR FORMS OF EXECUTION

A casual reader of the Biblical text might assume that the execution described as "stoning" is carried out by hurling stones at the condemned individual until he dies from the force of the objects thrown at him and that "burning" is accomplished by subjecting the condemned to a burning flame after tying the condemned to a stake or casting him or her on a funeral pyre. The oral tradition, however, as explicated by the rabbis of the Talmud demonstrates that neither of these descriptions is the "stoning" and "burning" envisioned by the Bible.

A. "Stoning" Was Intended To Be a Quick and Relatively Painless Form of Non-disfiguring Execution.

The Mishna in tractate Sanhedrin (45a) describes execution by "stoning." The condemned defendant was pushed from a platform set high enough above a stone floor that his fall would probably result in instantaneous death6.

The Talmud explains that the height from which the accused was pushed was substantial enough that death was virtually certain. Providing for an immediate death was, according to the Talmud, derived from the Biblical commandment (Leviticus 19:18), "You shall love your fellow as yourself." This commandment requires a court to select for a condemned man a humane (i.e., painless) death (Sanhedrin 45a). Rashi, the leading medieval commentator on the Talmud,7 explained that when the Talmud says a "humane death" it means a "quick death."

The continuation of the discourse in Sanhedrin reveals that the rabbis’ ultimate concern was that the mode of execution be as quick and as painless as possible, and that it cause as little disfigurement as possible. When one rabbi suggested that the height of the platform should be increased so that death from the fall would be certain, another rabbi responded that raising the platform is unacceptable because a fall from too high a platform would result in disfigurement.

B. "Burning" Was Intended To Be a Quick and Relatively Painless Non-disfiguring Form of Execution.

The Mishna in Sanhedrin (52a) also described the procedure for "burning" and stated clearly that it did not involve actual resort to fire or flames. Rather, an extremely hot object (or wick) was inserted into the mouth of the condemned individual so as to cause instantaneous death. Here, too, the objective was to cause death quickly and without mutilation of the body.

Indeed, the Mishna concludes with a very revealing passage that condemns any court that would put an accused to death with actual flames (id.; emphasis added):

Rabbi Elazar the son of Rabbi Tzadok said "An incident once occurred with the daughter of a priest who committed adultery and they surrounded her with bundles of branches and burned her." The other rabbis responded to him, "That was done because the court that performed this execution was not knowledgeable."

The concluding comment of the Mishna indicates that regardless of the common understanding of "burning," the rabbis believed that a court that would actually set a person on fire was a court acting in error. The Talmud, in fact, explains that the incident reported in the Mishna was the work of a court of Sadducees (i.e., those who mistakenly applied the Biblical text without taking account of the oral tradition and rabbinic interpretation). This passage demonstrates once again the rabbis’ primary concern that the method of execution not cause unnecessary pain or disfigurement of the body.

[angryChineseKahanist]

Stoning (according to descriptions I have heard) should be relatively quick and painless (aside from fear)... Stoning requires the condemned to be pushed off a high place so that he falls and breaks all his bones upon hitting the ground. Only then, if he still lives, do the people throw stones on him.

Sir, this is not Israel.
However, that was not torture, it was incompetence.
It should have been over in minutes.

[muman613]

Sir, this is not Israel.
However, that was not torture, it was incompetence.
It should have been over in minutes.

I realize it was a 'mistake' but it was due to using chemicals which were not tested or approved by the standard procedure for the death penalty.

[Every Jew AK47]

For those of you whining and crying for poor Clayton Lockett and his inhumane execution, please read about what he did and how his victim suffered the most horrible death imaginable.  If anything, I wish Clayton died a more painful and slow death than he did.. Sadly, Clayton probably didn't feel much pain as he was dosed up with painkillers.. I wish he would have suffered so much more, like his victim.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/clayton-lockett-execution-shocking-crime-3478725

Clayton Lockett, whose execution went wrong last night, was sentenced to death following the shocking murder of Stephanie Nieman, 19.

She was kidnapped, shot twice and buried alive in 1999 a month after she graduated from high school.

Lockett was involved in a botched raid on a house with two other men belonging to Bobby Bornt when Miss Neiman and another 19-year-old woman walked in.

Reports from the time said that Mr Bornt owed Lockett money and that he was tied up and beaten during the ordeal.

Miss Neiman's friend was dragged into the house and hit in the face with a shotgun.

Under duress, the friend then called Miss Neiman into the home and she was also hit in the face with the gun.

Her friend was raped by all three men before they were taken to a rural part of Kay County, Oklahoma

Lockett told them that he was going to kill them all but shot Miss Neiman twice when she refused to give her keys and pickup's alarm code.

When she was shot dead, she was stood in a shallow grave that had been dug by one of Lockett's accomplices, Shawn Mathis. He told Lockett that Miss Neiman was still alive, but Lockett ordered Mathis to bury her.

According to Tulsa World, Bornt wrote a letter that said: "Clayton being put to death by lethal injection is almost too easy of a way to die after what he did to us. ... He will just be strapped to the table and will go to sleep and his heart will stop beating."



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/clayton-lockett-execution-shocking-crime-3478725#ixzz30PCsdEjw
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

BTW.. Considering how horrible was Clayton's crime.. I am almost wondering if his "botched" execution was done intentionally!

[kyel]

You do realize that the reason these executions go wrong is because they are trying to make the person high before they execute them so its "Humane". There are known things that kill easily I mean you could inject bleach, nicotine, alcohol whatever most of these things can kill in 10 seconds at the right dose. There is no reason to spend 1000s of dollars drug injection shots of painkillers and anesthetics to kill someone. I mean really it wouldn't even be that big of a deal to put a bag over their head and guillotine either. Honestly, I wish they did public executions because it would be a good deterrent, every country with it has a lower murder rate.

[muman613]

For those of you whining and crying for poor Clayton Lockett and his inhumane execution, please read about what he did and how his victim suffered the most horrible death imaginable.  If anything, I wish Clayton died a more painful and slow death than he did.. Sadly, Clayton probably didn't feel much pain as he was dosed up with painkillers.. I wish he would have suffered so much more, like his victim.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/clayton-lockett-execution-shocking-crime-3478725


BTW.. Considering how horrible was Clayton's crime.. I am almost wondering if his "botched" execution was done intentionally!

Who is crying for this guy? Certainly not me. I am glad he is dead.

But we must not get into the habit of performing executions which are illegal according to our Constitution. We also should execute in order to prevent future crime ("eliminate evil from our midst" according to the Torah) in a humane way. It has nothing to do with this particular condemned person but rather with the entire system. Execution is not a form of torture and it should not be used as such.

[muman613]

Eja44,

The death penalty should not be used for retribution or torture. It was not used for that in the Torah, nor should it be a part of the law of America.

[muman613]

But Torah punishments were harsher than the ones currently employed by America, and a harsh penalty is a better deterrent.  It shouldn't be too harsh but harsher than it is now.  Also this could have been an act of God which punished this murderer, since the executioners were not trying to give him this much pain.

Did you read what I posted about the Torah proscribed methods.. They are humane...

Stoning is pushing a condemned man off a high platform where he is killed instantly. It was probably not so painful...

[muman613]

How is a 'harsh penalty' a deterrent?

The person is dead... He cannot feel anymore, he cannot suffer any more... At the end of the day he is dead. The death is the penalty, not the pain.

[muman613]

The Torah does not want us to cause disfigurement or pain. That was not the reason for the Torah proscribing the penalty of death.

The body of a condemned person must be buried with the same rules as a righteous person. It must be buried within a day of death. It must not be left overnight hanging on a tree...

To me the Torah method of execution and the intention of execution is the ideal.

[muman613]

See what Rabbi Shafier says about the commandment to stone the criminal:

http://www.theshmuz.com/ki.html

ספר דברים פרק כא

(כב) וכי יהיה באיש חטא משפט מות והומת ותלית אתו על עץ:
(כג) לא תלין נבלתו על העץ כי קבור תקברנו ביום ההוא כי קללת אלהים תלוי ולא תטמא את אדמתך אשר ידוד אלהיך נתן לך נחלה:
רש"י על דברים פרק כא פסוק כג
(כג) כי קללת אלהים תלוי - זלזולו של מלך הוא שאדם עשוי בדמות דיוקנו וישראל הם בניו משל לשני אחים תואמים שהיו דומין זה לזה אחד נעשה שר ואחד נתפס ללסטיות ונתלה כל הרואה אותו אומר השר תלוי כל קללה שבמקרא לשון הקל וזלזול כמו והוא קללני קללה נמרצת
 
The punishment of Stoning

Of the four capital punishments in the Torah, the most severe is Skilah. The nation gathers around to watch as the criminal is thrown off of a second story cliff to the jagged rocks below. If he survives it, he is then stoned to death. And after being proclaimed dead, his body is hung publicly for all to see – so that others will learn not to do as he did.

 
Yet the Torah warns us his body should not remain hanging for too long. He must be buried that day because it is an embarrassment to the king to let him hang.
 
Rashi explains: It is an embarrassment to HASHEM to have a human being hanging because man was formed in the image of HASHEM. Since the Jewish people are called “sons of HASHEM,” the shame is even greater. Therefore, the body must be taken down that day before sunset.
 
Rashi then gives the Moshol that this is comparable to identical twins. One twin rises through the ranks and eventually becomes king. The other twin turns to a life of crime. Eventually, the hoodlum is caught and hung. Since he was identical to the king, anyone passing by will proclaim, “Look! The king has been hung!” Rashi explains that it is for that reason that the Torah commands us not to leave the body hanging too long. A person is made in the image of HASHEM, and it is an embarrassment to HASHEM to leave His likeness hanging.
 
This Rashi is very difficult to understand. Whenever our sages use a moshol, it is to bring us into a different realm of understanding. It is as if to say our current frame of reference isn’t large enough to understand the point, so we broaden it by stepping into a different dimension. This moshol implies that one passing a hanging human would on some level mistake him for HASHEM. But this seems preposterous. No one would mistake man for HASHEM. HASHEM created the heavens and the earth; man can barely make it through his day. HASHEM lives on for eternity; man puts his head down to sleep, not knowing whether he will ever awaken. How can anyone mistake man for the Creator? What is Rashi trying to teach us with this moshol?
 

Replica vs. Representation
If you ride the elevator to the 86th floor of the Empire State building, you will find a gift store selling models of the very building that you are standing in. That is a replica. A replica reminds a person of the original. Granted it is in miniature, and granted no one would mistake it for the original, but it carries, almost in caricature form, some reminiscence of the original.

 
A flag, on the other hand, is not just a piece of cloth that reminds us of a particular country. It stands for and symbolizes the nation itself. It is a representation of the county. The American flag is not allowed to touch the ground. It would be considered an affront to the people it represents. So too, a throne is more than a seat the king sits upon. It embodies the distinction and nobility of the king. If one sits on the king’s throne, it is a affront to the king’s honor.
 
If the Torah were teaching us that man was a replica of HASHEM, or even a representation of Him, it would be a huge perspective change in the way that we view man. Rashi seems to be saying that man is far more than a replica of HASHEM, and even more than a representation of HASHEM. Man is in a completely different category. To understand this Rashi, we must understand the role that HASHEM gave man in the universe.
 

All physical manifestations have a spiritual counterpart
Chazal explain to us that all physical manifestations have a spiritual counterpart. The spiritual counterpart of Creation is maintained by man. If he accomplishes his mission in the world, he elevates himself and the world along with him. If he doesn’t live up to his role, then both he and the world that depends upon him become damaged. In the case of Adom, one sin caused a radical change in the destiny of the world and mankind. HASHEM placed the keys to Creation  in man’s hands.

 
We don’t see this because look at the world in its physical form and see a static existence. Physicality is. Matter exists. A solid piece of wood is unmoving and inert. However, if you were to ask a scientist about that seemingly solid piece of wood, he would tell you it is actually comprised of electrons spinning around in constant motion. There is far more to it than meets the eye.
 
So too, the spiritual dimension of existence is in constant flux, ever changing. For its continued existence, it requires man’s input. His actions and decisions fuel the spiritual state of existence, and therefore the physical as well.
 

Man as a partner in Creation
HASHEM is the Creator and Maintainer of the world. The entire cosmos is dependent upon Him. HASHEM put man in the center of Creation and made the world dependent upon him. If we were fully attuned to the Torah’s view of man, we would see him as the maintainer of physicality. In that sense, he is almost like a little creator– the world depends upon him for its existence.

 
This is what Rashi is adding with his Moshol. If one truly understood the basis of the universe, he would see that man is far greater than even a replica or representation of HASHEM – man is so great that he could almost be mistaken for a creator.
 
This point is even more powerful because the individual we are discussing didn’t receive the death sentence for eating Shalosh Seudos in shul. The Torah considers him so corrupt and depraved that he lost his lease on life. Yet even this criminal remains so much like HASHEM that it would be an embarrassment to the King to leave him hanging.
 
The Torah is teaching us to view man in a very different light. We should look at man and gasp, “That is a man! Man is created in the image of HASHEM! How much honor and accord is due to that great person?” Obviously, this concept will greatly affect the way we treat others. But just as significantly, it will impact the way we view our own potential and how much we should come to expect from ourselves.

[muman613]

Because a death perceived as more painful would deter more people from committing a crime than a death with no pain.

I don't know how that works. Death is the final result... The pain seems like a side-dish...

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

If I knew I was going to die from a lethal injection that just put me to sleep, I might be bolder than if I knew someone was going to shove a hot poker down my throat no matter how fast it killed me.

I agree with Dans theory. .. would you rather die in your sleep, or burn to death?

Stoning sounds good... Throwing someone off a two story cliff onto sharp rocks(good chance of survival) then stone them till they're dead, dead, dead.

[Every Jew AK47]

I'm glad Torah thinks stoning and burning people to death is humane punishment...  I say, we start burning these scumbag murderers alive and save the taxpayers some money!!!  Not to mention justice for the poor, innocent victims!!!!! 

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I'm glad Torah thinks stoning and burning people to death is humane punishment...  I say, we start burning these scumbag murderers alive and save the taxpayers some money!!!  Not to mention justice for the poor, innocent victims!!!!! 

I don't think Torah says anything about burning (but I don't know for sure), it was just an example... But that is what our enemies did to us! But Torah does say an eye for an eye, etc...

[muman613]

Review the thread... It seems people are thinking that the Torah proscribes painful punishments, but to the contrary. They are intended to be humane. There are four proscribed death penalties:

1) Stoning
2) Burning
3) Strangulation
4) Beheading (sword)

http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha-overview/chapter79.html

The courts administer four death penalties: stoning, burning, beheading, and strangling. The first three are explicitly specified in the Torah for various sins, and the punishment for murder too is beheading. It is a tradition received from Moses that whenever the Torah does not specify the manner of execution strangling is meant. The courts are commanded to administer these penalties to those who deserve them; and there is a special prohibition against not executing a convicted sorcerer, as it says "You shall not let a sorceress live".8 We are commanded to hang a male idolator or blasphemer after he is executed, but it is forbidden to leave him hanging overnight, as it says "And if there is in a man a sin for which he is sentenced to death you shall hang him on a tree; his carcass shall not stay overnight on the tree... for the cursing of G-d [he] is hung",9 and it says "[And a person that acts highhandedly...] blasphemes Ha-Shem".10 We are commanded to bury executed persons on the day of their execution, as it says "For you shall bury him on that day".9,d

[NoMosqueHere]

Whatever happened to the firing squad?  It's cheap and proven effective