Author Topic: Pope will baptize Martians  (Read 2264 times)

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Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2014, 08:27:13 AM »
If he would care about his fellow Christians than he should start with the musloids.

Offline syyuge

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2014, 09:20:51 AM »
Last Mission to Mars.
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2014, 10:55:20 AM »
Great, maybe he should be sent there (to mars).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline drlmg

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2014, 11:02:47 AM »
Does that mean he is going to baptize James Carville?


Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2014, 11:04:48 AM »
If Martians were real, they wouldn't have free will. But Catholics think Satan has free will and rebelled against G-d. If there was intelligent life on other planets they would either have the status of angels who don't have the desire to do evil or like animals who don't have the ability to know the difference between good and evil.


Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2014, 12:04:42 PM »
If Martians were real, they wouldn't have free will. But Catholics think Satan has free will and rebelled against G-d. If there was intelligent life on other planets they would either have the status of angels who don't have the desire to do evil or like animals who don't have the ability to know the difference between good and evil.
I didn't know the Jewish Scriptures talk about extraterrestrial life. That is interesting. Can you paste some passages?

Offline drlmg

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2014, 12:47:30 PM »
I didn't know the Jewish Scriptures talk about extraterrestrial life. That is interesting. Can you paste some passages?

I may be wrong but I think you are right.... I certainly am no expert but I have never seen anything about extraterrestrial life.

Offline muman613

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2014, 03:56:30 PM »
I may be wrong but I think you are right.... I certainly am no expert but I have never seen anything about extraterrestrial life.

Jewish belief does not exclude the possibility of alien life, although at this time I am still a skeptic when it comes to extraterrestrials.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2014, 03:57:38 PM »
The great Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan addressed the issue of extraterrestrials in Jewish belief...



http://www.torah.org/features/secondlook/extraterrestrial.html

Extraterrestrial life
by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan


One of the unique aspects of Judaism is its far reaching universality. Not only does Judaism provide a lesson for every human being, its teachings extended to the very boundaries of the universe.

It is an axiom of Judaism that the entire universe was created for the sake of man. In one place, the Talmud reckons that there are some [10 to the 18th power] stars in the observable universe, and explicitly states that they were all created for the sake of man. It goes further to state that all the angels and spiritual worlds also only exist for this purpose.

Of course, this immediately raises a question that many find quite difficult. How is it possible that man, living on a dust mote called planet Earth, should be the center of the universe? Our Sages realized the vast number of stars in the universe, and also realized that many of them were many orders of magnitude larger than the earth. (Maimonides - Foundations of Torah 3:8)

...It should be quite simple to understand that size and quantity alone are meaningless to an infinite God. There is absolutely no question that the human brain is vastly more complex than the greatest galaxy, and furthermore, that it contains more information than the entire observable inanimate universe. Beyond that, man is endowed with a divine soul that towers over even the highest angels.

Although the creation of such a vast universe for the sake of man does not defy logic, we still need to seek out a reason for its necessity. Some sources state that by contemplating the greatness of the universe, one can begin to comprehend that of God, and thereby fear Him all the more (Maimonides - Foundations of Torah 2:2).

However, if we speak of the possibility of extra terrestrial life, we must explore the question somewhat further.

THE FREE WILL QUESTION

One of the first to discuss the question of extraterrestrial life in general was Rabbi Chasdai Crescas (Or Hashem 4:2). After a lengthy discussion, he comes to the conclusion that there is nothing in Jewish theology to preclude the existence of life on other worlds. As possible evidence for extraterrestrial life, he quotes the Talmudic teaching (Avoda Zara 3b) that "God flies through 18,000 worlds." Since they require His providence, we may assume that they are inhabited.

Of course, this Talmudic quotation is by no means absolute proof, for it may be speaking of spiritual worlds, of which an infinite number were created.

One could also attempt to support this opinion from the verse (Psalms 145:13), "Your kingdom is a kingdom of all worlds." However, here, too, this may be speaking of spiritual universes.

The exact opposite opinion is that of Rabbi Yosef Albo, author of the "Ikkarim." He states that since the universe was created for the sake of man, no other creature can exist possessing free will. Since any extraterrestrial life would neither have free will nor be able to serve a creature having free will (as terrestrial animals and plants serve a terrestrial man), they would have no reason for existing and therefore be totally superfluous.

One could bring some support to the second opinion from the Talmudic teaching that every land where it was not decreed for man to live was never subsequently inhabited. However, here again, it is not absolute proof, since this may only refer to our planet.

THE STAR OF MEROZ

Between these two extremes, we find the opinion of the Sefer Habris who states that extraterrestrial life does exist, but that it does not possess free will. The latter is the exclusive possession of man, for whom the universe was created. The 18,000 worlds mentioned earlier, in his opinion, are inhabited physical worlds. The proof that he brings for his thesis is most ingenious. In the song of Deborah, we find the verse, "Cursed is Meroz... cursed are its inhabitants" (Judges 5:23). In the Talmud, we find the opinion that Meroz is the name of a star. According to this opinion, the fact that Scripture states, "Cursed is Meroz... cursed are its inhabitants" is clear proof from the words of our Sages for extraterrestrial life.

Of course, even this proof is subject to refutation, for the Zohar also follows the opinion that Meroz is a star, yet states that "its inhabitants" refers to its "camp," that is, most probably, to the planets surrounding it. Nevertheless, the simple meaning of the verse seems to support the opinion of the Sefer Habris.

The Sefer Habris goes on to say that we should not expect the creatures of another world to resemble earthly life, any more than sea creatures resemble those of land.

He further states that although extraterrestrial forms of life may possess intelligence, they certainly cannot have freedom of will. The latter is an exclusive attribute of man, to whom was given the Torah and its commandments. He proves the latter thesis on the basis of the above-mentioned Talmudic teaching that all the stars in the observable universe were created for the sake of man.

WINGS TO ESCAPE THE EARTH

...The basic premise of the existence of extraterrestrial life is strongly supported by the Zohar. The Midrash teaches us that there are seven earths. Although the Ibn Ezra tries to argue that these refer to the seven continents, the Zohar clearly states that the seven are separated by a firmament and are inhabited. Although they are not inhabited by man, they are the domain of intelligent creatures. We therefore find the basic thesis of the Sefer Habris supported by a number of clear-cut statements by our Sages. There may even be other forms of intelligent life in the universe, but such life forms do not have free will, and therefore do not have moral responsibility.

Freedom of will, however, is not at all an observable quantity. Even its existence in man has been hotly debated by the secular philosophers. Indeed the main proof that man does indeed have free will comes from the fact that God has given him moral responsibility, namely the Torah. It is in this sublime, yet unobservable quality, that man is unique.

However, if we assume this to be true, we would return to the basic question of Rabbi Yosef Albo, mentioned earlier: If such creatures never have any utility for man, what is their reason for existence?

We find a most fascinating answer to this question in the Tikunei Zohar. Speaking of the verse (Song of Songs 6:8), "Worlds without number," the Tikunei Zohar states: "The stars certainly are without number. But each star is called a separate world. These are the worlds without number."

The Tikunei Zohar further states that every tzaddik (righteous person) will rule over a star, and therefore have a world unto himself. The 18,000 worlds mentioned above would therefore be that number of stars, presided over by the 18,000 tzaddikim that are alluded to in the verse (Ezekiel 48:35), "Around Him are 18,000." However, these may only refer to those worlds visited daily by the divine presence, but there may be innumerable worlds for the lesser tzaddikim.

We therefore have a most fascinating reason why the stars were created, and why they contain intelligent life. Since an overcrowded Earth will not give the tzaddikim the breadth they require, each one will be given his own planet, with its entire population to enhance his spiritual growth.

Once we know that the stars and their planets were created as an abode for the tzaddikim, we might naturally wonder how they will be transported to them. However, the Talmud even provides an answer to this question. Discussing the passage (Isaiah 40:31), "They shall mount up with wings as eagles," the Talmud states that in the future world, God will grant the tzaddikim wings to escape the earth. The Zohar goes a step further and states that "God will give them wings to fly through the entire universe."

In a way, this teaching predicts the advent of space travel. But more than that, it provides us with at least one of the reasons why space flight would be inevitable as part of the prelude to the messianic age. This, of course, could bring us to us general discussion of the role of modern technology in Torah perspective, a lengthy subject in its own right.


Excerpted with permission from "THE ARYEH KAPLAN READER" Published by ArtScroll/Mesorah Publications Ltd..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2014, 09:02:20 PM »
Perhaps the Vatican should promote Christianity on Mars, at least that would get them away from Israel's holy sites.


I've heard of "Chabad of Mars". Someone made up such a website. If there are Jews settling Space, there would need to be a Chabad House there.

On a serious note, there actually is a Jewish hilltop on Mars. Ramon Hill is part of Columbia Heights on Mars. Ramat Ramon is named after Ilan Ramon, Z"L. One of the Mars spacecrafts has the names of the astronauts killed when the Columbia blew up upon re-entry in 2003. It also has the Israeli Flag next to Ilan Ramon's name.




Offline muman613

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2014, 09:15:21 PM »


I've heard of "Chabad of Mars". Someone made up such a website. If there are Jews settling Space, there would need to be a Chabad House there.

On a serious note, there actually is a Jewish hilltop on Mars. Ramon Hill is part of Columbia Heights on Mars. Ramat Ramon is named after Ilan Ramon, Z"L. One of the Mars spacecrafts has the names of the astronauts killed when the Columbia blew up upon re-entry in 2003. It also has the Israeli Flag next to Ilan Ramon's name.



The biggest question I have is how do you observe Shabbat on Mars? What time does it start and what time does it end? The martian day is not equal in length to the Earth day... So how will it work (or not work)?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2014, 09:39:16 PM »
Mars has 2 moons. A solar year on Mars is longer than on Earth. The Jewish Calendar is only based on Earth's Moon. so even if Mars had one moon, you still couldn't use it for that. The easiest answer is that you use Halachic times from where you came from. Ilan Ramon's rabbi ruled that he should observe Shabbat from when it was in Cape Canaveral (Or maybe Houston, I forget.). The same thing is done for people in far Northern latitudes where it is light all the time for many days in the Summer. They would go by the closest Jewish community or closest city with real Sunrise/Sunset. Chabad of Alaska specializes in such questions.


Offline Rubystars

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 03:35:03 PM »
If we do see "aliens" here on earth I believe that it will be some kind of great deception being foisted upon us.

I believe such things would be supernatural in origin, human-created, or earth natives that have not yet been discovered by most of the public.

I think genuine alien life could exist, but I don't think we will directly interact with them on earth.

Most Christians would not believe in "baptizing" aliens because most Christians believe that Jesus came to earth for humankind, not for inhabitants of other worlds if there are any. Even the other life on this planet that is intelligent (dolphins, elephants, higher primates) is not included, so why would alien life be included?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 03:57:44 PM by Rubystars »

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 03:44:19 PM »
Mars has 2 moons. A solar year on Mars is longer than on Earth. The Jewish Calendar is only based on Earth's Moon. so even if Mars had one moon, you still couldn't use it for that. The easiest answer is that you use Halachic times from where you came from. Ilan Ramon's rabbi ruled that he should observe Shabbat from when it was in Cape Canaveral (Or maybe Houston, I forget.). The same thing is done for people in far Northern latitudes where it is light all the time for many days in the Summer. They would go by the closest Jewish community or closest city with real Sunrise/Sunset. Chabad of Alaska specializes in such questions.

Imagine far in the future, with many colonies on Mars. Perhaps Mars has been terraformed or perhaps people are living under some kind of dome structures. However the Jewish children growing up there know their ancestors and religion came from earth several thousand years ago but have no real connection to the planet Earth.

Rather than thinking of Israel, a tiny speck they can hardly see with a powerful telescope, as the Holy Land, there is a risk they could see Earth as the holy planet, because it's Earth that they base the timing of their religious practices on.

Now imagine a further destination. Humankind has managed to spread out not just to other planets, but to other solar systems entirely. Now there is a danger that one might find that star in the sky (the sun) which is all they could see from where they lived without some kind of planet viewing technology, and honor it as the holy star.

Perhaps this is one reason why Chaim and some others believe so strongly in Jewish people living physically in Israel. That way there is never a risk of such things because the Bible is in context of where it was intended to be practiced (on Earth).

Offline muman613

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 03:54:47 PM »
Perfect time for this video:



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 03:58:45 PM »
Rubystars,

Your scenarios discounts the prophecy of our prophets. We see the Messianic age as approaching very quickly. We are currently in year 5774 and we believe that by the year 6000 we will have achieved the messianic age. While some sages say that nature will not change significantly, others say that there will be a fundamental change in the universe. All of creation will acknowledge and praise Hashem, and if there is non-human intelligent life I believe that they too will accept Hashem as the master of the universe.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2014, 04:01:38 PM »
Rubystars,

Your scenarios discounts the prophecy of our prophets. We see the Messianic age as approaching very quickly. We are currently in year 5774 and we believe that by the year 6000 we will have achieved the messianic age. While some sages say that nature will not change significantly, others say that there will be a fundamental change in the universe. All of creation will acknowledge and praise Hashem, and if there is non-human intelligent life I believe that they too will accept Hashem as the master of the universe.

I was just going with what the previous poster had been talking about but you could be right that people won't keep developing technology for long enough for that to become an issue.

Hypothetically speaking though, what would happen if the messianic age was delayed by several thousand years?

Offline muman613

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2014, 04:07:10 PM »
I was just going with what the previous poster had been talking about but you could be right that people won't keep developing technology for long enough for that to become an issue.

Hypothetically speaking though, what would happen if the messianic age was delayed by several thousand years?

It would upset a lot of Jewish thought.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2014, 04:09:01 PM »
It would upset a lot of Jewish thought.

I honestly think that God will be ready to put a stop to all this within the next few hundred years at most too though. Look at how evil the world is now... and it seems to be getting worse all the time.

Offline muman613

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2014, 04:09:35 PM »
I honestly think that God will be ready to put a stop to all this within the next few hundred years at most too though. Look at how evil the world is now... and it seems to be getting worse all the time.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/607585/jewish/Significance-of-the-year-6000.htm

Question:

I heard from a rabbi that the year 6000 will be the last year, the year when Moshiach will arrive and usher in the redemption. I thought we do not know when the "last" year will be, so why this prediction?

Answer:

The Talmud tells us that this world, as we know it, will last for six thousand years, with the seventh millennium ushering in the cosmic Shabbat, the Messianic Era. Six days a week we work, and on the Shabbat we rest and enjoy the fruits of our labor; the same is true with millenniums.

However, it is certainly possible for Moshiach to come earlier. And we believe, hope, and pray each day that this is the day when Moshiach will come. This is also analogous to the weekly Shabbat, which we have the prerogative of ushering in early on Friday afternoon (click here for more on this topic).

So yes, we don't know exactly when Moshiach will come, but we do know that it will be before the year 6000. (Currently, as I write this response, we are in the year 5768 [2007-8].)

I would only like to add that the anticipation of Moshiach's arrival at any moment has considerably heightened in recent years in light of the pronouncement by the Lubavitcher Rebbe that Moshiach's arrival is very very imminent!
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Nachus

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2014, 12:59:03 AM »
 :usa+israel:                                                                                                                                 :fist:


 To once again quote the great Yosef Ben Meir ZT"L ;  James Carville, the "devil" incarnate, Yemach Shemo
 Vezichro! He'll surely be welcome and blessed in gehennom where he'll be interviewed on a regular basis.

Offline muman613

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2014, 02:36:53 AM »
:usa+israel:                                                                                                                                 :fist:


 To once again quote the great Yosef Ben Meir ZT"L ;  James Carville, the "devil" incarnate, Yemach Shemo
 Vezichro! He'll surely be welcome and blessed in gehennom where he'll be interviewed on a regular basis.

I just saw that ugly sewer rat on a Fox news segment. He was his ratty little self in that clip.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: Pope will baptize Martians
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2014, 09:57:57 AM »
The great Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan addressed the issue of extraterrestrials in Jewish belief...



http://www.torah.org/features/secondlook/extraterrestrial.html

Extraterrestrial life
by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan


One of the unique aspects of Judaism is its far reaching universality. Not only does Judaism provide a lesson for every human being, its teachings extended to the very boundaries of the universe.

......


Excerpted with permission from "THE ARYEH KAPLAN READER" Published by ArtScroll/Mesorah Publications Ltd..


I'm little late on this one, but very interesting and realistic. Considering thousands of years ago, they did not have radio telescopes, perhaps they had camel mounted sun dials.

U+262d=U+5350=U+9774