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[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Ira Tick‎Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

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You ought to also remind your friend that "when the Torah viewed an entire people as an existential threat to the Jewish Nation they were to all be killed out" is an attitude that is by itself tautological. Vengeful feelings are what allow people to come to the conclusion that an entire people is an existential threat, or to even come to ridiculous conclusions about what constitutes existential threat in the first place.
 Or maybe I should just finally rejoin the group.







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Tag Mehir Tzedek AND Hazal also point out that when we left Egypt, each tribe had a flag. A flag represents one's pride and honor etc. Associated with positive things one does or represents. The tribe of Shimon had a flag (or banner) of SCHEHEM!

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Ira Tick Talk about preconceived bias. You're cherry picking as much or more than those you disagree with.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek How am "cherry picking".

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Tag Mehir Tzedek The flag they had when coming out was of Schehem.

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Ira Tick Also, change your profile picture, you may think it makes you look tough, but its fodder for antisemites on the Internet.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek if it was bad and immoral, do you think that out of everythin gthey would have THAT flag?

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Ira Tick Where does it say they had Schechem on their flag? How many meforshim repeat that? How is that not cherrypicking a source?

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Tag Mehir Tzedek I don't care about anti-semites, if given the chance, I will kill them, but go back to the topic were discussing and not change the topic.

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Ira Tick I'm not changing the topic, because frankly, its the same topic.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Hazal say it. Do you have anything to the contrary?

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Tag Mehir Tzedek I will bring you source hold on.

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Ira Tick I have the rest of the places where they don't glorify violence or vengeance. That's all I need.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek http://meir-kahane.angelfire.com/vayechi.html/




Parashat Vayechi -Accursed is their rage- Rabbi Meir Kahane
meir-kahane.angelfire.com
Simeon and Levi avenged Dinah, which constituted avenging Israel. Whoever says t... See More

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Tag Mehir Tzedek (Bamidbar Rabbah 2:7):

Every prince had an insignia. Each had a banner bearing the color of a precious gem on Aharon's heart...The prince of every tribe had a banner of the same color as his precious gem... Simeon's gem was emerald and his banner was green, bearing a picture of [the city of] Shechem.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Ira- yea where? So you give up on this example would you like to go to another example of a situation WITH OTHER NATIONS ?

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Achi- please embrace the Torah values as opposed to the galuti, fake "values".

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Ira Tick Wait, that source doesn't say what you said. It doesn't say that God approved. It says that Shimon's precious gem was his violence. That's as much a tragic statement as it a call for vengeance.

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Ira Tick Achi, don't tell me what is "galuti" when 1) the Talmud was composed in galut and 2) the history of Jewish scholarship and life and achievement in galut is nothing to snort at and 3) the Torah tells us that it is trying to be just like any other nation, with a flag and an army and jingoism and nationalist revenge is what is dishonorable.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek The Talmud praises Revenge as well

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Read the ending of the source " and his banner was green, bearing a picture of [the city of] Shechem."

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Ira Tick I addressed that directly.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek So your claiming that they would have a flag on something supposedly shameful and wrong?

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Tag Mehir Tzedek And that when giants like the Rambam, RambaN the Gur Aryeh and Hazal say that it was justified and correct they were all wrong and you are correct just because you cant stomach such an approach

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Ira Tick Why is it wrong to suggest that their flag was tragically inappropriate?

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Ira Tick Yaakov Avinu couldn't stomach it. He thought it was extremely dangerous.

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Ira Tick And is Rav Aviner "galuti?"

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Tag Mehir Tzedek He is Mamlachti for sure. I don't want to talk about him and his heavy inbvolvelemt and collaboration with the government especially in Gus Katif

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Yaakov didn't condemn their actions, he only suggested that it would put him and his (small) family in danger.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek And it was only at first, then he accepted their words and just moved on.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Today, people have risen up to destroy us who are smitten with the alien [Western secular] culture. Tragically, these include even Torah scholars and learned Jews who have pronounced that, halachically speaking, there is no state of war between us and ...See More

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Tag Mehir Tzedek I guess like the Talmud says. Silence means acceptance.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek 1

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Tag Mehir Tzedek bechoffer- Yaakov also thought (when he was giving Prophecy or about to on his deathbed) that Shimshon was the Moshiah. Shimshon was the one who took revenge and brought destructions upon the enemies of the Jews. It was his fierce fighting that was pra...See More

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Tag Mehir Tzedek R Shrira Gaon points out that the students of Rabbi Akiva died in the Shmada (meaning persecution by the government) during the war.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek And that is his authentic letter to the Sefardim

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Tag Mehir Tzedek How do you explain the fact that King Dawidh (Alaw Hashalom) tortured the men on Moab after they killed his family?

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Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer Tag Mehir Tzedek: I don't want to get into what is mamlachti and what is galuti, but I was for the retreat from Gush Katif and still am. So we really are on very different pages. So there is really not much for us to accomplish in our discussion here, ...See More

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Tag Mehir Tzedek What does "don" mean?

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Tag Mehir Tzedek And to Amon King Dawidh did this- 'And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. And David and all the people returned t...See More

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Ira Tick And that's why David couldn't build the Beit HaMikdash.

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Ira Tick What is done is not necessarily proper, and what is justified is not necessarily required or ideal, and what is necessary is not necessarily praiseworthy or a source of pride.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Nope that's not why. If he built it then Hashem couldn't destroy it (the Temple) and then He would take His "anger" against us instead.

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Ira Tick Horsepuckey.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Hashem says all the blood that Dawidh spilt was better then all the sacrifices that his son Solomon made

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Ira Tick Rav Moshe Feinstein, that great and famous collaborator with gentiles, you might say, ruled that one may bear arms in Israel on Shabbat, but only where absolutely necessary, basing himself on the Gemara that says the idea of weapons of war as adornments, permitted to be carried on Shabbat, is dubious, and then when Moshiach comes, they certainly will not be considered adornments, rather scornful.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Read this http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,56922.msg517074.html...




The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple
jtf.org
The Reason that David Could Not Build the Temple

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Tag Mehir Tzedek "when Moshiah comes" you try to mean what you invision to be the Moshiah?

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Meaning the mystical type of "miracle worker".

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Ira Tick Nope, I mean the Rambam's definition, which is that he must fight the wars of Hashem in a way that leads to peace with one's neighbors, not perpetual and total war.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek But the whole issue of Moshiah aside. Yes when AFTER all the wars end then their would be no use for weapons, very good. But until then we carry weapons when necessary and use them when necessary as well

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Haaa?

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Tag Mehir Tzedek You yourself say He fights

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Anyway Moshiah is just the National leader.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek The "appointed" King

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Ira Tick I never claimed to be a pacifist.

I like that tagline: In your heart, we know we're right, And in your guts, you know their nuts.

If you guys don't need proof, why am I even discussing the evidence and the logic?

Maybe I should just move on. I think I will.

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Tag Mehir Tzedek After David explains in the Tanach that he was invalidated from building the Temple because he was a man of wars and spilled much blood on the ground, he does something that seems pretty odd.
He tells his successor, Shlomo {Solomon} who the prophet predicted would build the Temple to arrange for the execution of potential troublemakers, such as Yoav and Shimi the son of Gera [I Melachim/Kings chapter 2].
Shlomo obeys and even goes further. When he sees an indication that his brother, Adoniyahu, has not given up plans of seizing the throne, he also executes Adoniyahu.
Despite all this bloodshed, Shlomo indeed does build the Temple.
And the obvious question, is why, when Shlomo sheds blood is it not an obstacle to building the Temple, but it is for David?

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Tag Mehir Tzedek Ira I don't mind you discussing. If you can prove something I fully accept it. Otherwise you can and should accept our (mine or others) positions when its correct. These are matters of life and death as well as we see our nation totally castrated and doesn't deal properly with our enemies which then leads to more terror and bloodshed being done against Jews.

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[muman613]

So what was accomplished here? I see a lot of writing but no progress... What is exceptional about this long diatribe?

[muman613]

You realize that the prophets envisioned two ways to arrive at the Messianic age. The Talmud discusses this too. And it is a valid belief that the Temple will be rebuilt in a miraculous manner. Although I personally, and those I associate with, do not accept that this 'miraculous Temple' will be the way it happens, rather we must make all the preparations and attempts to rebuild it on our own... But I do not ridicule those who believe otherwise because I believe it is Ezekiel who envisioned the Temple from heaven. Also Rashi discusses this in his commentary...

https://www.templeinstitute.org/future_temple.htm

http://ohr.edu/holidays/sefiras_haomer/articles/949

[muman613]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/148182/jewish/Who-Will-Build-the-Third-Bais-Hamikdash-Man-or-G-d.htm

A Building of the Heavens or of the Earth

There is a classic difference of opinion between our Rabbis regarding the construction of the Third Beis HaMikdash. The Rambam states1 that the Beis HaMikdash will be built by man, more specifically by Mashiach. Indeed, its construction will be one of the signs of Mashiach’s advent.

Rashi,2 by contrast, explains that the Beis HaMikdash has al­ready been constructed by G‑d and exists in the heavenly realms, waiting for the time when it will descend to the earth. For the Third Beis HaMikdash will be “the Sanctuary of G‑d, established by Your hands.”3 When the setting within the world is appropriate, this heavenly structure will descend and become an actual reality within our material world.

Each of these views is based upon sources in the works of our Sages.4 There is, however, a unique historical point which supports the Rambam’s position. Our Sages relate5 that in the era of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Chananiah, the Romans granted the Jews permission to rebuild the Beis HaMikdash. Joyous at the opportunity they were granted, our people rushed to begin the preparations for building only to have the project thwarted by the intervention of the Samaritans. What is significant, however, is that they planned to build the Beis HaMikdash through their own efforts; they did not wait for it to descend from the heavens.

Will We Be Worthy?

This account can, however, be reconciled with Rashi’s view. To explain: Our Sages6 note the apparent contradiction between two verses describing the coming of Mashiach. One verse states:7 “Behold, one like a son of man came on the clouds of heaven.” It is, however, also written:8 “Your king will come... like a poor man riding on a donkey.” In resolution, our Sages explain that if the Jews are found worthy, Mashiach will come “on the clouds of heaven”; if they do not merit, he will come “like a poor man riding on a donkey.” Similarly, in other contexts, our Sages de­scribe one course for the Redemption if the Jews’ conduct is meritorious, and another, if, heaven forbid, such merits are lacking.9

In the present context as well, it can be explained that the ultimate conception of the Beis HaMikdash is a heavenly struc­ture to descend from above. If, however, the Jews are not wor­thy of such a sanctuary, the Beis HaMikdash will still return in the Era of the Redemption. It will, however, be a structure built by man, and not by G‑d.

On this basis, we can also resolve the difficulty cited above. When the Romans granted the Jews the opportunity to rebuild the Beis HaMikdash, the people must have been somewhat dis­appointed that the Beis HaMikdash did not descend from heaven. Nevertheless, the realization that they had not been found worthy of a heavenly structure did not dampen their en­thusiasm for building a sanctuary to the fullest extent of their human potential.10

Concrete Elucidation of Yechezkel’s Prophecies

Another possible resolution can be offered based on the Rambam’s statements shortly after the beginning of Hilchos Beis HaBechirah: 11

The structure which Shlomo built is already described in the [Book of] Melachim. Similarly, the structure which will be constructed in the future era [is described in the Book of] Yechezkel. Nevertheless, the description there is not explained or elucidated.

[Therefore,] the people who constructed the Second [Beis HaMikdash] in the time of Ezra, built it according to the [basic] design [employed by] Shlomo, incorporat­ing the elements which were explicitly detailed by Yechezkel.

It can be explained that Mashiach will lead the people in the construction of those dimensions of the Beis HaMikdash which can be grasped by human intellect. Afterwards, since the dimensions of Yechezkel’s prophecies which we cannot com­pre­hend will be left incomplete, they will be revealed from heaven by G‑d.

When That Which is Hidden Will Emerge

Another approach to rec­oncile Rashi’s view and that of the Rambam is based on our Sages’ interpretation of the verse, “Her gates sank in the earth.”12 Our Sages relate13 that the gates of the Beis HaMikdash were fashioned at the order of King David. This endowed them with an eternal invulnerability.14 When the Babylonians laid waste to the Beis HaMikdash, the gates were not destroyed. In­stead, they were swallowed by the earth.

In the Era of the Redemption, the entire Beis HaMikdash will descend from the heavens with the exception of the gates, which will ascend from the earth. Mashiach will then connect the gates to the Beis HaMikdash. Our Sages explain15 that con­necting the gates to a building is considered as equivalent to the construction of the entire edifice.

Adding Divine Perfection to Human Effort

Moreover, it can be ex­plained that the two concep­tions are, in no way, contradic­tory. Building the Beis HaMik­dash is a mitzvah incumbent on the Jewish people.16 In the Era of the Redemption, when it will become possible to fulfill all the mitz­vos, we will also be obli­gated to rebuild the Beis HaMik­dash. Within that structure which man will erect, however, will descend and be enclothed “the Sanctuary of G‑d,” which is waiting in the heavens.

Mankind is obligated to create a Sanctuary for G‑d within the context of our material world. After that is completed to the fullest extent of our human potential, the inner essence of the Beis HaMikdash will be revealed — that it is “the Sanctuary of G‑d,” possessing a dimension of perfection which utterly sur­passes any possible work of mortal man.

* * *

May we witness the actual resolution of this issue in the immediate future, with the coming of the Redemption and the rebuilding — or the descent — of the Beis HaMikdash. “And then, the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to G‑d, as in the days of old and as in bygone years.”17


FOOTNOTES
1.   Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Melachim 11:1,4.
2.   Sukkah 41a, Rosh HaShanah 30a. See also Tosafos, Sukkah, loc. cit.
3.   Shmos 15:17.
4.   The Rambam’s view appears based on the Jerusalem Talmud, Megillah 1:11, Pesachim 9:1, Vayikra Rabbah 9:6, and Bamidbar Rabbah, 13:2. Rashi’s view has its source in the Midrash Tanchuma, Pekudei, sec. 11, the Zohar I, 28a, and other texts.
5.   Bereishis Rabbah 64:10.
6.   Sanhedrin 98a.
7.   Daniel 7:13.
8.   Zechariah 9:9.
9.   See the essay “Two Periods Within the Era of the Redemption,” in the text I Await His Coming, which discusses this issue at length.
10.   Significantly, in the era of Rabbi Yehoshua, there was no particular individual dis­tinguished as Mashiach. Nevertheless, the people planned to build the Beis HaMikdash. It was only in a later generation that it was revealed that it would be Mashiach who would build the Third Beis HaMikdash.
11.   Hilchos Beis HaBechirah 1:4. See the essay “How We Can Build the Beis HaMikdash” which elaborates on this concept.
12.   Eichah 2:9.
13.   Bamidbar Rabbah 15:13, Eichah Rabbah on the verse cited.
14.   Sotah 9a.
15.   See Bava Basra 53b; see also Shaarei Zohar to Sukkah 41a.
16.   Hilchos Beis HaBechirah 1:1. See also the conclusion of the discussion of the positive mitzvos in Sefer HaMitzvos, which states that building the Beis HaMikdash is an obligation incumbent on the Jewish people as a communal entity.
17.   Malachi 3:4.