Author Topic: A Message from the Kalever Rebbe: What is the Solution to the Security Situation  (Read 6410 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/252447/a-message-from-the-kalever-rebbe-what-is-the-solution-to-the-security-situation-in-eretz-yisrael.html#comment-591838


-Woow how original. Neither Moshe Rabbeinu nor the Neviim nor the Shoftim thought about this. For some reason they said to fight the enemies in the land (physically fight). I wonder why didn’t figure this strategy out?

--1 you are WRONG. Their are plenty of great Jews who follow the Torah Much more correctly then you, including keeping Shabbat, the holidays, working (providing for their families as the Torah commands), fighting in the army and protecting Am Yisrael and doing the other Mitzvot and not just learn Torah and expect a hand out from the “Zionist” government they despise. AND your claim that Jews were all “Haredim” origionally is wrong as well. “Haredi” is a new invention, maybe 200 years tops. - If Arabs take over (G-D forbid) they will slaughter if not all but most of us. Just look at how they treat other minorities throughout the middle East. Only ignorant people don’t see the truth and what Arabs do to others including other Arabs (even Muslim Arabs). - Lastly, you think that the Muslims will pay people to learn Torah all day (that is if they leave you alive). Only in Israel are people paid to sit and learn Torah, YETTT by the ungrateful one’s ISRAEL is considered the worst country? PUKE, where is your Hakarot Hatov? Where is your sanity?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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SORRY again, people here wonder why I am against Haredim and see it as the danger that it is to Klal Yisrael. This (partly) is why.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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And this is precisely why many Jews want to and demand to have the Haredim in the army. We cannot allow these types of people to grow and to influence the country. Just as any sane person would do everything they can to limit the power, influence and numbers of the leftists who are against them, and the Arab enemies of Israel soo to with the Haredim especially because of and with these attitudes and mentality. You have in the past and G-D forbid if you have the power will get us all killed. Butchered! No sane person would allow someone like this Rebbe, nor "akpurman" nor other leftists and Haredim to take control of the country and people's minds and mind set. This is a curse to our nation and a very serious threat. Don't forget that their was a Holocaust !70 years ago and most Jews refused to fight and many did learn Torah. It did not save them. The Torah isn't to save the body but to refine the soul so let's not misuse the Torah and to start keeping the Commandments properly including driving our enemies out of Eretz Yisrael as the Torah Commands and not sit and wait for miracles.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Ask yourself if you are capable of giving 'loving rebuke' of the kind Moshe Rebbeinu gave?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Ask yourself if you are capable of giving 'loving rebuke' of the kind Moshe Rebbeinu gave?

I'm not
 So?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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I'm not
 So?

So, is it right to spread lashon hara about this? I don't know about what you consider Sinat Chinam, or whether you are observing the nine days or fasting for Tish B'Av (but I'll assume you are)... But I find it somewhat wrong to be doing this at this time.

If you truly were concerned about the issue you would be rebuking them, attempting to make friends with them, trying to alter their views which you consider to be so wrong. But your approach seems to be that by shaming them, and speaking negatively about them, you will somehow accomplish a goal (which maybe you can explain because it seems senseless).

You know that there are exceptions which allow speaking lashon hara, and one of them is to protect others from danger. I don't know if what you are doing speaking about haredim like this is to protect anyone from danger, or for other more questionable reasons.

I am not trying to insult you, Tag, you are a good friend of mine even though we disagree a lot. I hope you can try to understand why I feel the way I do. I will explain more if you are interested, and maybe you can explain what you are trying to accomplish by posting a thread like this?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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No lason hara here. This is written publicly on a website and was sent out by email as well.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Miman if you don't see this as I problem what can I tell you. Go on the site and look at some of the comments. This is how people think. Some even think that if we surrender to the Arabs they will somehow have mercy on us. Read the comments
 Not only that they allowed such idiotic cements to be on and did not publish the comments I put up here
 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Tag,

You are contributing to a machloket which causes division between Jews. Is this really the time to do this?

And I do not agree that this is not lashon hara...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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What do you expect by making these posts? Do you think that the Haredim will read your loving words and realize the error in their ways? I surely doubt that based on the way you express your disdain for them. So the other assumption is you are doing it to shame them and denigrate them... If that is the case then it rises to another level...

Can you think of a positive way to turn the situation around? Is your complaint against them in the best interest for Klal Yisrael? It is easy for Jews to turn their back on fellow Jews, as this is one thing which happened in Germany...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Do you believe that Hashem listens to prayers?

Do you believe that Hashem is all powerfull?

Do you believe that Hashems will is for the Jews to spread Torah in the world?

As a Kahanist I do believe that Hashem wants us to act in the ways of the world of nature in order to bring about the redemption. But indeed Hashems hand is intrinsically involved in the redemptive process. I believe that some Jews have a skewed understanding of just how important action in the world is, above and beyond the power of prayer. But I understand that there are some who have different understanding.

If I were you I would have taken a different approach to this issue... Rather than appearing to want to belittle and shame them, I would rather have seen an attempt to argue the point based on the sources in an attempt to sway their opinions (although I admit it seems unlikely).

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Tag,

You are contributing to a machloket which causes division between Jews. Is this really the time to do this?

And I do not agree that this is not lashon hara...

 Its public and its needed to be addressed in order to warn others and to fight against this ideology.

- So if you don't agree? Its not about who agrees or not it is about what is and this is not lashon hara. Go look into the Sefer of Hafess Haim and see what is and what is not Lashon Hara. This is literally an article they sent through email and on a website. How in the world is this Lashon Hara?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Its public and its needed to be addressed in order to warn others and to fight against this ideology.

- So if you don't agree? Its not about who agrees or not it is about what is and this is not lashon hara. Go look into the Sefer of Hafess Haim and see what is and what is not Lashon Hara. This is literally an article they sent through email and on a website. How in the world is this Lashon Hara?

Does the fact that it is sent in an email make it not Lashon Hara? I have studied many times the laws and have reposted them here. Lashon Hara is simply speaking or writing something which is derogatory about a Jew or a group of Jews. The command derives from the Torah command 'Do not be a talebearer for your people' and people who go around saying 'Do you know that so and so is a liar?' or 'So and so is a cheater, did you hear what he did to so and so?'... Expressly saying or doing something which has the potential to cause shame and loss of name to a Jew or Jews... Lashon Hara is particular in that it is something which is TRUE and yet we are prohibited from using it to defame them.

It is not my intention to argue about what or what doesn't count as lashon hara. I just hope that the goal of this is to bring about resolution rather than continue the machloket.

One of the main themes of last Shabbat parsha is that we should attempt to give loving rebuke rather than say things in a way meant to shame and degrade the other Jews.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Here are some of the sources from the Torah which establish the command against speaking lashon hara...

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/speech.htm

Tale-Bearing

There are two mitzvot in the Torah that specifically address improper speech:  "Thou shalt not go up and down as a tale-bearer among thy people" (Leviticus 19,16), and "ye shall not wrong one another" (Leviticus 25,17, which according to tradition refers to wronging a person with speech).

Tale-bearing is, essentially, any gossip.  The Hebrew word for tale-bearer is "rakheel" (Resh-Kaf-Yod-Lamed), which is related to a word meaning trader or merchant.  The idea is that a tale-bearer is like a merchant, but he deals in information instead of goods.  In our modern "Information Age", the idea of information as a product has become more clear than ever before, yet it is present even here in the Torah.

It is a violation of this mitzvah to say anything about another person, even if it is true, even if it is not negative, even if it is not secret, even if it hurts no one, even if the person himself would tell the same thing if asked!  It is said that the telling of gossip leads to bloodshed, which is why the next words in the Torah are "you shall not stand aside while your fellow's blood is shed".  The story of Do'eig the Edomite (I Samuel Chs.  21-22) is often used to illustrate the harm that can be done by tale-bearing.  Do'eig saw Achimelekh the Kohein give David bread and a sword, a completely innocent act intended to aid a leading member of Saul's court.  Do'eig reported this to Saul.  Do'eig's story was completely true, not negative, not secret, and Achimelekh would have told Saul exactly the same thing if asked (in fact, he did so later).  Yet Saul misinterpreted this tale as proof that Achimelekh was supporting David in a rebellion, and proceeded to slaughter all but one of the kohanim at Nob.

The person who listens to gossip is even worse than the person who tells it, because no harm could be done by gossip if no one listened to it.  It has been said that lashon ha-ra (disparaging speech) kills three:  the person who speaks it, the person who hears it, and the person about whom it is told.

In Jewish law, all things are considered to be secret unless a person specifically says otherwise.  For this reason, you will note that in the Torah, God constantly says to Moses, "Speak to the Children of Israel, saying" or "Speak to the Children of Israel and tell them".  If God did not specifically say this to Moses, Moses would be forbidden to repeat his words!  Nor is there any time-limit on secrets.  The Talmud tells the story of a student who revealed a secret after 22 years, and was immediately banished from the house of study!

The gravest of these sins of tale-bearing is "lashon ha-ra" (literally, "the evil tongue"), which involves discrediting a person or saying negative things about a person, even if those negative things are true.  Some sources indicate that lashon ha-ra is equal in seriousness to murder, idol worship, and forbidden sexual relations (the only three sins that you may not violate even to save a life).

It is forbidden to even imply or suggest negative things about a person.  It is forbidden to say negative things about a person, even in jest.  It is likewise considered a "shade of lashon ha-ra" to say positive things about a person in the presence of his enemies, because this will encourage his enemies to say negative things to contradict you!

One who tells disparaging things that are false is referred to as a motzi sheim ra, that is, one who spreads a bad report.  This is considered the lowest of the low.

It is generally not a sin to repeat things that have been told "in the presence of three persons".  The idea is that if it is told in the presence of three persons, it is already public knowledge, and no harm can come of retelling it.  However, even in this case, you should not repeat it if you know you will be spreading the gossip further.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Does the fact that it is sent in an email make it not Lashon Hara?

 Yes, and not only email but posted in an online newspaper read by more than 3 people.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Yes, and not only email but posted in an online newspaper read by more than 3 people.

By your spreading it you increase the transgression. Just because something was sent by email to more than three people does not make it not Lashon Hara. Once a thing has become known by more than three people it lessens the degree of the transgression.

I find nothing good about what was written here. It was not constructive, it was derogatory, and I do not accept it (because I don't listen to lashon hara).

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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By the way, I read the article you posted about originally and cannot find anything which I disagree with...

What exactly was your problem with that article? That it suggested that Torah study provides divine protection for the people of Israel? That is a fact of Torah...

The study of Torah supports Jewish soldiers: Makkot 10a

Torah study as protection against Suffering: Berachot 5a

Torah study as protection against danger: Eruvin 54a

http://www.webshas.org/torah/advice.htm

I will add that Torah study and Military preparation are both necessary to defeat the enemy... Maybe the article did not mention the requirement to have a well-trained military you find a reason to knock it.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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What needs to be understood by the establishment religious world is that fighting the enemies of the Jews are a part of the Torah (milchemet mitzvah), not just studying and praying and performing only mitzvoth that can be done in the galut.  Also, gaining your living just from Torah study is also against Torah commands, for those who are doing this.

The article simply explains that Torah study is important for divine protection from all enemies. This is an accepted idea of Torah so I don't see any problem repeating it. Also Haredim are in Israel and thus they can do commandments which must be done in the land.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14