Obvious LGTB people at shul and Daber Davar

[Sveta]

There is a shul I do not frequent but visit once in a while. It's more geared at "young professionals" meaning anyone in their 20s and early 30s. Very nice people.
However, I hope I am not doing wrong in mentioning, there was an obvious lesbian woman on the women's section. Short man's hair cut, man's clothes, strong built, tattoos on the face. Apparently this person comes from a religious town and just arrived to the area. Everyone was polite to her but more than that, it was as if everyone was overjoyed at her being there. Women were hugging her, extending their hands to her to hold hands with her. Men were hugging her.
Women in this shul get up in front of men and women to talk about the lessons of the week's parsha, usually the rabbi does this part but it's they take turns and women get to do that here. The drinks are heavy after Kiddush, and I mean spiked drinks (again, they want to attract young people, so I understand many of the people who attend are non-Observant young people). I notice that people in this neighborhood celebrate diversity and completely overlook anything negative in people. Yes, we must look at the positive in people, judge them favorably. But I am not sure what the limits are anymore. I mentioned the people who did conversions but now dress completely immodestly (it has gotten worse) and everyone is completely fine with it. Now it's welcoming LGTB into shuls and everyone is happy about it.

Am I wrong in feeling something is off? Maybe I am wrong? I tried to block any negative thoughts off my head, it happened this Shabbos. I am hoping to get some insight on this situation. It started to feel more like a kumbaya moment, or more like the "party shul" of the block. I only went there because I was invited rather than go to my regular Chabad shul. In any event, I don't think I would be going back.

So, how do we act if someone is one step away from waving the rainbow flag in shul. I assume it's to be polite and not say anything, probably not go back. Is it forbidden to point any of it out?

Lastly, Daber Davar. Every Shabbat people talk about "how much did it cost" "how much would it be if I do that" "what do you think the rent goes for this place" "how much rent would you say is reasonable for this area"
And these are frum people, so the question is- what are the limits on Shabbos? I have been asked before "how much did it cost you" on Shabbos to which I say I can't remember, even if I do know. But if frum people are doing it...

[Binyamin Yisrael]

It sounds like the fags at the Israel Day Concert who pretend to be religious with kippot and tzitzit.

You said the immodesty among female converts has gotten worse. Is that because the women dress even more immodest in the hot Summer weather?

[Sveta]

The immodesty amongst those ladies is probably something I should not have mentioned, it's an old topic so never mind on that.

What I care about is the issue of what should Orthodox shuls do when there are obvious LGTB members.

And about the forbidden speech issue.

[muman613]

Shalom IsraeliHeart,

I am saddened to hear this... It is so sad to hear about Jewish communities going to hell. If I were you I would find a better, more observant, community to daven and socialize with. I know the community of my local 'progressive' synagogue (although it has been about 2 years since I went there) and I cannot say that I know one regular homosexual member (although maybe now there is). Most of that community is older though.

Regarding watching what you speak about on Shabbat... Indeed there is a principle that we should not discuss 'mundane' matters on Shabbat, we should not talk about doing things after Shabbat is over, we should try to speak words of Torah on Shabbat. Most of the time my community does attempt to avoid speaking about mundane matters, for instance if someone says something which may not be 'Shabbosdik' they will apologize and say that it could be discussed another time.

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/ostroff/archives/shabbos3_31.htm

Is there a limit as to what one may speak about on Shabbos?

We will deal with this question on two levels - the first pertains to one’s spiritual conduct and the second is a halachik perspective.

In Yeshaya 58:13 we find the following possuk:

'13 - Im tashiv mishabbos raklecha, asos cheftzicha b'yom kadshi, v'karasa lashabbos oneg, likdosh Hashem mechubad, v'chibadito ma'asos derachecha, mimtzoh cheftzicha v'daber davar.'

This entire possuk is utilized to teach how one is to conduct oneself on Shabbos. We learn the issue of oneg Shabbos – enjoying the Shabbos, honoring the Shabbos and more.

We also learn that one’s speech on Shabbos must not be the same as weekday speech. One must not only refrain from violating the Shabbos by not performing the melachos and the many rabbinical prohibitions, but one must transform oneself and be a different person on Shabbos. Thus one’s dress, actions and speech should be  different from that of during the week.

Of course the level to which this is taken varies from person to person as it depends on one’s spiritual purification and perfection.

Let us begin at the top –

The Mishna Berura writes [1] that one who refrains from speaking about weekday matters on Shabbos will be called holy. He continues saying that “people of deeds” would only speak in Lashon HaKodesh on Shabbos, even when essential matters are involved, in order not to be drawn into idle chatter.

Is that type of conduct not meant for very pious people?

To conduct oneself in such a manner for an entire Shabbos is indeed above most of our spiritual levels. Nevertheless it does not mean that we are exempt from knowing where we should be heading and what we must strive for. For example, the Mishna Berura [2] cites the Sheloh HaKadosh [3] who says that one who greets a fellowman on Shabbos should not greet him in the weekday fashion - good morning etc. rather one should say gut Shabbos or Shabbat Shalom, in order to fulfill the mitzvah of remembering the Shabbos.

We all conduct ourselves in this manner (although we may not have been aware of the reason for it) because we know Shabbos is different. (For this reason some have the custom not to say good night, before going to sleep on Shabbos, because it is Shabbos and one should say gut Shabbos or Shabbat Shalom). [4]

Are there any restrictions as to which thoughts are permitted on Shabbos and which are not?

From a purely halachik view point we learn from the possuk that states 'v'daber davar'  - that certain speech is forbidden on Shabbos, not thoughts, and one may think about one’s business on Shabbos. However, the Shulchan Aruch [5] writes that one should not think about business matters at all because of oneg Shabbos, especially if it causes worry and anxiety.

The Mechaber continues that one should feel on Shabbos as if one has concluded all of one’s business transactions and the M”B says this is learned from 'sheishes yamim ta'avod v'asisa kal melachtecha'  - one should conclude all of one’s work in 6 days, and that comes about because it should be that when Shabbos begins - 'u'vayom hashvii shavas' , it should be as if one’s business is concluded. When Shabbos begins there is no need for more work. This indeed is a high plane for one who is in the middle of a complicated business issue, but it is expected of us.

What if my business is B”H very successful. May I not think about it?

Thinking about and being excited about $1,000,000 in the bank is not a crime, but it will most probably lead to problems. One will start thinking whether it is invested wisely, is it earning enough etc. The same with a successful business. There are many complicated matters involved and one will begin to think about them on Shabbos. The optimal conduct on Shabbos therefore, is to totally disconnect one’s mind from such matters and focus on more spiritual matters.


[1] M”B simon 307:5.

[2] M”B simon 307:5.

[3] HaRav Yeshaya Horowitz - Born: Prague, Czechoslovakia, 1565. He studied in Prague and served as Rav in Poland, Lithuania, and Germany. He returned to Prague as Rosh Yeshiva in 1615 and was appointed Rav of Jerusalem in 1622. Author of Shnei Luchot HaBrit/Sheloh, a classical work on Halacha, customs, and Kabbalah, written around the 613 Commandments as they appear in each parsha. The author gives kabbalistic interpretations of the laws as well as its ethical implications. (Adapted from the biography written by R’ Shlomo Pereira).

[4] I once saw another reason for this. On Shabbos it does not say åéäé òøá åéäé áå÷ø, and therefore there is no room for saying good night.

[5] Simon 306:8.

[Zelhar]

Generally the synagogue is a tolerant place that invite people in and doesn't kick them out for being different. I have been haredi even hassidic schuls where I was the odd man out but no body tried to kick me out quite the opposite they often want me to participate more.

But what you describe the kumbaya atmosphere might be a problem and that's not because they try to adjust their service to appeal to the lowest common denominator so they make compromises of the kind that they will go down the libtard path to oblivion.

[Sveta]

Thank you for your input, everyone who replied. I won't be going back to that shul, I understand they want to attract all kinds of people of every level of observance.

I don't expect anyone to have asked this woman to leave, especially on Shabbos. However, when someone with a man's haircut and man's clothes is at the shul, I also don't frum expect women and men to be holding hands with her and giving her hugs. The biggest problem I see is that we are becoming a community that is willing to look away from things that years ago, our ancestors would not have tolerated.

So my confusion stems from where do we draw the line. At what point do Jewish communities start to make a point? By ignoring these issues, some new generations of Jews are little by little loosing some values. That's when you start witnessing women with head coverings but miniskirts. And it slowly degrades from there.

I just don't know how to deal with it anymore.

[Lisa]

Maybe the people at that shul were just hoping that "woman" would do teshuva?  I don't know.  But I don't blame you for not wanting to go back there. 

[Sveta]

Maybe the people at that shul were just hoping that "woman" would do teshuva?  I don't know.  But I don't blame you for not wanting to go back there.

You are so right about that. It would be great if that could happen.

Muman, thank you sooo much for posting the link and quoting about daber davar! Very helpful, thank you!!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If the men are hugging women there, its already a shul I wouldn't want to be a part of.  I get that some people are less religious and everything but come on, have some decorum in shul, know what I mean?

[Sveta]

If the men are hugging women there, its already a shul I wouldn't want to be a part of.  I get that some people are less religious and everything but come on, have some decorum in shul, know what I mean?

I agree completely, that is why I am never going back there even if I get invited. There are plenty of other shuls in the area.

[ChabadKahanist]

What is wrong with fags & lesbos attending shul?
Are they any worse than shabbos desecrators & treif eaters?
They as any Jew should be encouraged to keep as many mitzvos as possible.

[Sveta]

What is wrong with fags & lesbos attending shul?
Are they any worse than shabbos desecrators & treif eaters?
They as any Jew should be encouraged to keep as many mitzvos as possible.

You are right.
Well, technically speaking a Shabbos desecration and a men who lie with men are both liable for the death penalty. Treif eaters are punished, but I don't think by death but by other ways. Lesbians are considered to be committing a perversion. I don't know how to say who is worse than who.

Nevertheless, the issue is not that they are in shul trying to better themselves and people trying to better them. The issue is that they are openly doing what they do and NO ONE even bothers to say anything to influence them to change. No, on top of that, they actually hug (men hugging women- regardless of how manly the woman, it's still a female).

It's just the entire atmosphere, this is plainly the "party shul" of the block. I understand this shul is meant to attract "young professionals" which is MO talk for Jews in their 20s and early 30s. Obviously, it's important to be a good influence to young Jews and give them a sense of a Jewish identity. BUT my only issue is, where to from there? Are we content with just getting them to shul every other Shabbos? Or should we aim for more.

Is this going to be the shul where men and women are hugging and dancing together (yes, they dance together at this place). And the shul where someone always spikes the drink during Kiddush with hard alcohol to please the young crowd. Or, is it going to be a shul that actually tries to change people for the better? That actively tries to set a good example, without embarrassing people obviously. But why be so permissible and why not honestly try get people to stop breaking Shabbos. It's almost as if we know people don't keep Mitzvot but let's look the other way so we can party on Shabbat.

In the end, however, this woman who is a lesbian can feel welcomed and loved at this place. Fine. But when she decides she's in love with another woman and wants to get married and invites people from this shul, the problem will finally surface. Some of the people will attend and the others will refuse causing the actual rejection they are avoiding now by being so "warm and accepting". It's almost like luring people into a false sense of security. It's all nice while no one says anything but eventually it leads to facing the actual reality.

 

[ChabadKahanist]

You are right.
Well, technically speaking a Shabbos desecration and a men who lie with men are both liable for the death penalty. Treif eaters are punished, but I don't think by death but by other ways. Lesbians are considered to be committing a perversion. I don't know how to say who is worse than who.

Nevertheless, the issue is not that they are in shul trying to better themselves and people trying to better them. The issue is that they are openly doing what they do and NO ONE even bothers to say anything to influence them to change. No, on top of that, they actually hug (men hugging women- regardless of how manly the woman, it's still a female).

It's just the entire atmosphere, this is plainly the "party shul" of the block. I understand this shul is meant to attract "young professionals" which is MO talk for Jews in their 20s and early 30s. Obviously, it's important to be a good influence to young Jews and give them a sense of a Jewish identity. BUT my only issue is, where to from there? Are we content with just getting them to shul every other Shabbos? Or should we aim for more.

Is this going to be the shul where men and women are hugging and dancing together (yes, they dance together at this place). And the shul where someone always spikes the drink during Kiddush with hard alcohol to please the young crowd. Or, is it going to be a shul that actually tries to change people for the better? That actively tries to set a good example, without embarrassing people obviously. But why be so permissible and why not honestly try get people to stop breaking Shabbos. It's almost as if we know people don't keep Mitzvot but let's look the other way so we can party on Shabbat.

In the end, however, this woman who is a lesbian can feel welcomed and loved at this place. Fine. But when she decides she's in love with another woman and wants to get married and invites people from this shul, the problem will finally surface. Some of the people will attend and the others will refuse causing the actual rejection they are avoiding now by being so "warm and accepting". It's almost like luring people into a false sense of security. It's all nice while no one says anything but eventually it leads to facing the actual reality.

I see your point but if there is no inappropriate behavior it should not be a problem,however the hugging especially in a shul is a problem & the rabbi should say something.