Author Topic: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric  (Read 7365 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.


Online angryChineseKahanist

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 10543
  • ☭=卐=☮
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 01:51:50 AM »
Actually, he is at the center of the universe and the sun rotates around his head and between his ears.

He's got the IQ of a broken table leg.
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2015, 05:35:24 AM »
Actually, Geocentrism is fully supported by Torah, Chazal and science!

"It is my firm belief that it is the Sun that revolves around the Earth, as I have also declared publicly on various occasions and in discussion with professors specializing in this field of science" (Lubavitcher Rebbe)- "The Earth is established, it cannot be moved" (Tehillim 93).

Go see the new film "The Principle" that provides solid scientific evidence for the Earth being at the center of the universe


Online Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10688
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2015, 08:11:59 AM »
This is very typpical quranic "wisdom". The level of ignorance even compared to level of scientific knowledge of the day is astounding.

"It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit. " (In fact you can often spot the moon during the day, also, there is this natural phenomenon called 'solar eclipse'...)

Another "miracle" to "confirm" that Muhammad is Allah's messenger:
"Seest thou not that the ships sail through the ocean by the Grace of Allah?- that He may show you of His signs? Verily in this are signs for all who constantly persevere and give thanks."

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2015, 09:02:58 AM »
Actually, Geocentrism is fully supported by Torah, Chazal and science!

"It is my firm belief that it is the Sun that revolves around the Earth, as I have also declared publicly on various occasions and in discussion with professors specializing in this field of science" (Lubavitcher Rebbe)- "The Earth is established, it cannot be moved" (Tehillim 93).

Go see the new film "The Principle" that provides solid scientific evidence for the Earth being at the center of the universe



False.

The Torah does not say specifically which it is or which it must be.  It does not address the question.   And we know the reality from science (heliocentrism) so we do not have to wonder which might be true.

Why dwell on one of the L Rebbe's mistakes ?  To make him look bad?

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2015, 09:14:37 AM »
Nowhere does the Tenach attribute any diurnal or annual motion to the Earth. Yehoshua's Long Day, Chizkiya's Sign, and hundreds of pesukim speak only of its fixity and staticity. The Sun, Moon and stars were created only on the Fourth Day to "be for signs, for festivals and for days and years.... and to illuminate" (Breishis 1) the Earth, which was the first physical object created on the First Day.

The simplest explanation of the zero-velocity result of the 1887 Michelson-Morley experiment and the positive result of the 1925 Michelson-Gale experiment, is that the Sun & the rest of the universe REALLY are going round the Earth: "The Earth is suspended at the center of the universe" (Rambam Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 3).

[/color] "The difference between the heliocentric theory and geocentric theory is one of relative motion only, and that difference has no physical significance. If the Galileo Affair had taken place after Einstein had framed his General Theory, it would have resulted in an even draw out of physical and mathematical necessity” (Sir Fred Hoyle).

Even an atheist like Bertrand Russell admitted: "Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors held, the observable phenomena will be EXACTLY THE SAME: a metaphysical assumption has to be made".



And it wasn't just the Lubavitcher Rebbe who held by Geocentrism: the Rambam, the Maharal, the Ma'aseh Tuviya, R.Nachman of Breslov, the Ba'al HaTanya, the Sefer Habris, R.Chaim Kanievsky, R.Aryeh Kaplan, R.Meir Kahane, R.Yitzhak Ginsburgh etc etc never relinquished the Geocentric paradigm, which is fully in accord with current Relativistic thinking, as Einstein himself admitted:

"The struggle so violent in the early days of science between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus is quite meaningless. Either coordinate system could be used with equal justification. The two sentences: 'the Sun is at rest and the Earth moves' or 'the Sun moves and the Earth is at rest' would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different coordinate systems".

And if Relativity should ever be shown to be wrong, then the Geocentric paradigm is no longer a primus inter pares: it actually becomes the favoured model!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 09:59:45 AM by Yerusha »

Online angryChineseKahanist

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 10543
  • ☭=卐=☮
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2015, 09:45:59 AM »
??
anyone been on an airplane?
the earth is round.
there are no monsters and you will not fall off the map.
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2015, 09:52:30 AM »
Unfortunately Islam twists the Torah with its exaggerated distortions & evil murderousness, and as usual gives True Torah a bad name!

Online angryChineseKahanist

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 10543
  • ☭=卐=☮
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2015, 10:15:31 AM »
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2015, 10:22:16 AM »
The idea that the ancients up to Columbus believed in a Flat Earth is an uncouth myth promulgated in the 1880s by Evolutionists trying to prove their intellectual superiority over previous eras.

The sphericity of the Earth was known to educated men since ancient times, including Chazal: Yerushalmi Avoda Zara 3:1, Avoda Zara 41, Breishis R.63, Bamidbar R.13, Esther R.1, Zohar III:10, Zohar Chadash 1:15. Rava gives the Earth's circumference correctly as 6,000 parsah -- 24,000 miles (Pesachim 94).

Pythagoras, Parmenides, Eudoxus, Plato, Aristotle, Erastosthenes, Euclid, Archimedes, Strato and Ptolemy all knew the Earth to be a globe.

This is not surprising since "the Greeks obtained their knowledge of astronomy from the works of the Bnei Yissachar" (Rambam, Hilchos Kiddush Hachodesh 17). "It is He who sits above the circle of the Earth, and its dwellers are like grasshoppers!" (Yeshaya 40).

Offline syyuge

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 7684
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2015, 01:55:59 PM »
Whatever are the controversies but this muslamic cleric is the most intelligent one among all the muslamic clerics.
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Online angryChineseKahanist

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 10543
  • ☭=卐=☮
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2015, 02:06:29 PM »
we're getting way off topic here. the point of the OP is that the muslims are dumber than piece of paper.
Don't say the Jews did it too.
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2015, 03:55:39 PM »
I believe that the Earth IS the center of the universe, but this does not mean it is the center around which everything physically revolves. The issue of 'flat earth' is a no-brainer and the Torah clearly demonstrates that the earth is spherical (and so too all the planets and stars). But Judaism considers Earth and Humanity to be the ultimate design of the Creator and thus we are the center of the Universe (all of creation).
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2015, 04:14:57 PM »
  Their is no center of the universe. Actually either their is no center OR anything you point at is the center.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2015, 04:16:52 PM »
Where is the centre of the universe?

There is no centre of the universe!  According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a "Big Bang" about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since.  Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere.  The Big Bang should not be visualised as an ordinary explosion.  The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell.

In 1929 Edwin Hubble announced that he had measured the speed of galaxies at different distances from us, and had discovered that the farther they were, the faster they were receding.  This might suggest that we are at the centre of the expanding universe, but in fact if the universe is expanding uniformly according to Hubble's law, then it will appear to do so from any vantage point.


 http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2015, 04:31:43 PM »
Tag,

From the Jewish perspective the entire Universe was created for one purpose, to be a habitation for mankind, so that the Jewish people could receive the Torah at Sinai. These beliefs come from the Talmud and Midrashim. If you are interested (or anyone for that matter) I could provide links and quotations to support this belief. Again, I am talking about the 'center' being the purpose of creation rather than a physical location.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2015, 04:33:28 PM »
Building on what Yerusha brought previously concerning the Rebbes view on this topic:



http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/73253/jewish/The-Wager.htm

In the summer of 1975, an encounter took place between Rabbi F.R., a Lubavitcher chassid, and Mr. A.P., a "modernized" American Jew. Rabbi R. was seeking to influence Mr. P. toward a greater commitment to Torah observance, which the latter dismissed as "archaic" and dismally outdated. In the course of the conversation, Mr. P. said, "Are you telling me that every law and practice mentioned in the Torah, written thousands of years ago, must be accepted at face value today?" "Certainly,” replied Rabbi R. "The Torah is eternal, and is equally pertinent to every day and age." "The Torah states that the sun revolves around the earth," countered Mr. P. "Do you believe that as well?" "Yes, I do," replied Rabbi R. "Well, you might believe that," said Mr. P., "but no rational, self-respecting inhabitant of the 20th century does. I’m sure your rebbe, Rabbi Schneerson, doesn’t!" "I’m sure he does," said the rabbi. "I’m willing to wager anything that he does not," said Mr. P. "In fact, I’ll say this: If the Rebbe states that he believes that the sun revolves around the earth, I will become a Torah-observant Jew and convince everyone I know to do the same!" "Would you put that in writing?" challenged Rabbi R. "No problem," said Mr. P.

Soon after, Rabbi R. received the following letter:


Dear Rabbi R____

As per our conversation of today... I did say to you, and am submitting the same in writing by means of this letter, that if the Rebbe would make a public statement to the effect that... since the Talmud states that the sun revolves around the earth, it is therefore his firm belief that the sun does indeed revolve around the earth, that I will:

(a) personally observe the laws of taharat hamishpachah, tefillin and Shabbat; and

(b) influence my friends and colleagues to do the same.

It is, however, more than obvious to me that the Rebbe will not, in any way, make such a ridiculous statement, because

(a) he does not wish to be labeled as a fool,

(b) he himself is not as foolish as some of his ardent but hypnotized followers.

I predict, with no hesitation, that I will not hear any more about this matter from you or from the Rebbe...

I must tell you that I feel a deep personal hurt when people such as you make such asinine, ridiculous statements and then hide your abysmal ignorance behind the facade of "Torah." Don’t you realize you can still be believers and not live 500 years behind the times?

Mr. P. received not one but two separate letters in reply from the Rebbe, plus a third, cover letter, which read as follows:

Greetings and blessings!

Your letter, addressed to Rabbi F____ R____, reached me ... In view of its content, I naturally take this first opportunity of replying to it.

Not knowing whether you are more interested in the practical implication, or/and in the scientific aspect, I am writing two separate replies, enclosed herewith, which you can read in the order you prefer.

With esteem and blessing,

M. Schneerson

P.S. It is surely unnecessary to add-though I am adding it for the record-that I take for granted that you will keep your commitments with regard to the practical aspects of your letter.

One letter read:

... In reply to your question relating to the matter of the motion of the sun and the earth, whether the sun revolves around the earth or the earth around the sun,

It is my firm belief that the sun revolves around the earth, as I have also declared publicly on various occasions and in discussion with professors specializing in this field of science.

In view of the above, I have no objection, of course, if you wish to make this view known to whomever you choose...

The other letter read:

... This is in reply to your inquiry on the question of the rotation of the sun and the earth in relation to each other, namely, whether the sun revolves around the earth, or the earth around the sun, and which view is to be accepted, etc.

I presume you have in mind the scientific view, i.e., what science has to say on this question, and I will address myself to this aspect.

It is well known that this was a controversial issue in ancient and medieval science. However, since about half a century ago, with the introduction of the theory of relativity, the latter has been universally accepted as the basis of modern science...

One of the conclusions of the theory of relativity is that when there are two systems, or planets, in motion relative to each other-such as the sun and the earth in our case-either view, namely the sun rotating around the earth, or the earth rotating around the sun, has equal validity. Thus, if there are phenomena that cannot be adequately explained on the basis of one of these views, such difficulties have their counterpart also if the opposite view is accepted.

Secondly, the scientific conclusion that both views have equal validity is the result not of any inadequacy of available scientific data, or of technological development (measuring instruments, etc.), in which case it could be expected that further scientific or technological advancement might clear up the matter eventually and decide in favor of one or the other view. On the contrary, the conclusion of contemporary science is that regardless of any future scientific advancement, the question as to which is our planetary center, the sun or the earth, must forever remain unresolved, since both view(s) will always have the same scientific validity, as stated.

Thirdly, it follows that anyone declaring that a person who chooses to accept one of these systems in preference to the other is a fool, while one who accepts the other is a wise man-such a judgment shows that the person making it is ignorant of the conclusions of modern science, or that he has not advanced beyond the science of Ptolemy and Copernicus...

A further point might be added, though perhaps not pertinent to our discussion. It is that every person, including modern scientists, actually has three options to choose from in this matter: (a) that A revolves around B, (b) that B revolves around A, (c) that A and B revolve around each other. But such a choice cannot be dictated by science; it would be one’s personal choice and belief.

What has been said above is-to repeat-the deduction of the theory of relativity, as it is expounded in various scientific texts, and it can be checked with any scientist who is thoroughly familiar with the said theory. Of course, on the elementary and high-school level, science in general, and the so-called Solar System in particular, is taught from relatively simple textbooks, and the change in the scientific attitude towards the subject under discussion is not emphasized. But, as stated, it would be quite simple to verify it with any scientist who knows this particular field...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2015, 04:47:48 PM »
I realize the OP didn't want to use this thread to argue about these issues, but since it was brought up...

Here is a discussion of some Talmudic ideas that state that Earth (specifically Jerusalem, and more specifically the Temple) are the centers of creation.



http://www.torah.org/features/israelmatters/eye.html
Quote

.
.
.

The Land of Israel was therefore literally the crossroads of civilization. Its capital and spiritual center, Jerusalem, was the focus of a process where the Jew would interact with all peoples, absorbing all the wisdom of the ancient world, while at the same time touching every great civilization with the wisdom of the Torah. It was thus taught that "Jerusalem is the center of the world" (Midrash Tanchuma). G-d also told His prophet, "This is Jerusalem, I have set her in the midst of nations, and countries are around her" (Ezekiel 5:5). Considering both the centrality of its location and its spiritual influence, it is not at all surprising that Jerusalem today is a sacred city to the majority of the world's population.

Even today, when land routes are no longer as important as they were in the past, Jerusalem is still a center of human concern. One need only to think of how Providence placed the major portion of the world's supply of oil -- the main source of transportation energy -- within a stone's throw of Jerusalem. The world would otherwise not give the Holy City a second thought, except perhaps as an ancient sacred shrine. As it is, decisions made in Jerusalem today can influence even the greatest world powers. Jerusalem thus still occupies an important role in the councils of nations. All this is certainly more than mere coincidence.

On a much deeper level, however, we see Jerusalem not only as a center of civilization but also as the very center of creation. The most important single object in Jerusalem was the Ark, containing the Tablets and the Original Torah. This stood in the Holy of Holies on an outcrop of bedrock known as the Evven Shetiyah, literally, the Foundation Stone. The Talmud states that it is called the "Foundation Stone" because it was the foundation of the universe. As the Talmud (Yoma 54b) explains, this is because it was the very first point at which G-d began the act of creation.

This is based on the teaching that creation began at a single point, and from this point, the universe unfolded until G-d decreed that it should stop. This is the significance of Shakai, which is one of G-d's names. It comes from the word "Dai," meaning "enough," and it indicates the Attribute through which G-d stopped the expansion of creation at a certain stage.

Here we must seek to understand why creation had to begin in a single point, and what is the significance of this point. Why could creation not have been brought into existence all at once? Why did it all have to emanate from a single point in space?

The answer to these questions involves an understanding of the entire concept of the spiritual and physical, as well as the difference between the two. There are numerous discussions regarding the difference between the physical and spiritual, but this difference is often not spelled out precisely. Very closely related is the question of why G-d created a physical world in the first place. G-d himself is certainly spiritual, as is the ultimate purpose of creation. It is therefore somewhat difficult to understand the need for a physical world all.
.
.
.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2015, 05:46:46 PM »
Where is the centre of the universe?

There is no centre of the universe!  According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a "Big Bang" about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since.  Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere.  The Big Bang should not be visualised as an ordinary explosion.  The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell.

In 1929 Edwin Hubble announced that he had measured the speed of galaxies at different distances from us, and had discovered that the farther they were, the faster they were receding.  This might suggest that we are at the centre of the expanding universe, but in fact if the universe is expanding uniformly according to Hubble's law, then it will appear to do so from any vantage point.


 http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/32659/20150214/big-bang-didnt-happen-new-theory-suggests-universe-has-no-beginning-no-end.htm
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline IsraelForever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1834
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2015, 06:28:45 PM »
On the contrary!  If any of my threads create a lot of discussion and debate -- and even go off on tangents -- then I'm happy about it.  In fact, that's precisely why I create a thread.  This is a discussion forum -- so discuss!

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2015, 06:49:25 PM »
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/32659/20150214/big-bang-didnt-happen-new-theory-suggests-universe-has-no-beginning-no-end.htm

According to our belief, this is not a 'New' theory, but rather the theory the pagans believed.

Quote
http://ohr.edu/6157
.
.
.
In the 1950s there were two theories about the origin of the universe. The first was called the Steady State Theory. It had been put forward by Hermann Bondi, Thomas Gold and Fred Hoyle and held that the universe was homogeneous in space and time and had remained like that forever — in "a steady state". This was essentially what Greek culture had posited: the universe was kadmon and it had always existed.

The rival and, at the time, more controversial theory sought to incorporate the expansion of the universe into its framework. Edwin Hubble had shown in 1929 that galaxies are moving away from one another at remarkable speeds, implying that the space between galaxies is constantly expanding. A few physicists, led by George Gamow, had taken this notion and argued that the separation between galaxies must have been smaller in the past.

If one extrapolated this idea to its logical conclusion, it meant that at one point in time the universe had been infinitely dense. Using the laws of physics Gamow and his colleagues were able to show that this point — which was also infinitely hot — corresponded to the moment of creation. Everything in the universe had emerged from this incredibly dense and hot state in a cataclysmic event astronomers call the ‘Big Bang’.
.
.
.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2015, 06:56:07 PM »
Relativity does not say there is no center to the universe: it says that we cannot yet determine where that center is!

Until the Michelson-Morley experiment is performed in space (possibly later this year), the Earth is as good a candidate for the being the center as anywhere else, and according to the Torah & Chazal - it's better!

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2015, 08:07:39 PM »
Nowhere does the Tenach attribute any diurnal or annual motion to the Earth. Yehoshua's Long Day, Chizkiya's Sign, and hundreds of pesukim speak only of its fixity and staticity. The Sun, Moon and stars were created only on the Fourth Day to "be for signs, for festivals and for days and years.... and to illuminate" (Breishis 1) the Earth, which was the first physical object created on the First Day.

The simplest explanation of the zero-velocity result of the 1887 Michelson-Morley experiment and the positive result of the 1925 Michelson-Gale experiment, is that the Sun & the rest of the universe REALLY are going round the Earth: "The Earth is suspended at the center of the universe" (Rambam Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 3).

[/color] "The difference between the heliocentric theory and geocentric theory is one of relative motion only, and that difference has no physical significance. If the Galileo Affair had taken place after Einstein had framed his General Theory, it would have resulted in an even draw out of physical and mathematical necessity” (Sir Fred Hoyle).

Even an atheist like Bertrand Russell admitted: "Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors held, the observable phenomena will be EXACTLY THE SAME: a metaphysical assumption has to be made".



And it wasn't just the Lubavitcher Rebbe who held by Geocentrism: the Rambam, the Maharal, the Ma'aseh Tuviya, R.Nachman of Breslov, the Ba'al HaTanya, the Sefer Habris, R.Chaim Kanievsky, R.Aryeh Kaplan, R.Meir Kahane, R.Yitzhak Ginsburgh etc etc never relinquished the Geocentric paradigm, which is fully in accord with current Relativistic thinking, as Einstein himself admitted:

"The struggle so violent in the early days of science between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus is quite meaningless. Either coordinate system could be used with equal justification. The two sentences: 'the Sun is at rest and the Earth moves' or 'the Sun moves and the Earth is at rest' would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different coordinate systems".

And if Relativity should ever be shown to be wrong, then the Geocentric paradigm is no longer a primus inter pares: it actually becomes the favoured model!

Dumb.

Weak and pathetic arguments which do not disprove or refute what I said.

Show me an exact quote where Rabbi Kahane denied that the earth revolves around the sun, since you quoted his name.  Give me source and page numbers.  I'm waiting.
(And even if he did, then he was wrong about it.  But I doubt he said what you claim).

You can cite authorities until the cows come home.  Many of them had zero scientific knowledge whatsoever and some of them predate galileo so it's irrelevant to cite them.

Reb Yaakov Kamenetsky accepted the scientist's astronomical observations (they are observations and facts, not opinions) and he had no problem stating the rambam got something wrong about the galaxy.  RY's approach is correct and there is no need to be a fanatical fool.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2015, 08:13:30 PM »
Tag,

From the Jewish perspective the entire Universe was created for one purpose, to be a habitation for mankind, so that the Jewish people could receive the Torah at Sinai. These beliefs come from the Talmud and Midrashim. If you are interested (or anyone for that matter) I could provide links and quotations to support this belief. Again, I am talking about the 'center' being the purpose of creation rather than a physical location.

!?

The fact that earth was created for one purpose has nothing to do with what physically revolves around what and how they move.  So what are you talking about?

I just gave you a dose of my Jewish perspective.