The Intelligence of a Saudi Muslim Cleric

[muman613]

!?

The fact that earth was created for one purpose has nothing to do with what physically revolves around what and how they move.  So what are you talking about?

I just gave you a dose of my Jewish perspective.

Still having those problems with comprehension, are we?

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,79667.msg656054.html#msg656054


PS: I don't see anything in your reply which can be considered a 'Jewish Perspective'... If you care to elaborate.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

According to our belief, this is not a 'New' theory, but rather the theory the pagans believed.

I just heard about this the other day, but doesn't it say somewhere G-d has no beginning and ending?

[muman613]

I just heard about this the other day, but doesn't it say somewhere G-d has no beginning and ending?

Yes, our belief is that G-d is without beginning and without end. But the physical world does have a definite beginning and will have an ultimate end. What I was trying to say is that the pagans and the secular believe that the world (in some form) existed forever. The Torah brought the idea that creation had a starting point to the world. Recently science has validated this idea with the concept of the big bang. What I think the article you linked was trying to say was the old view of a universe which had no beginning and will have no end.

[IsraelForever]

Regarding finding the center of the universe:  It's ridiculous to try.  Here's why:

Light travels at 185,000 miles in ONE SECOND.  At that rate, you would go around the equator 7.5 times in ONE SECOND. 

The Shapley Supercluster is the largest cosmic structure in the LOCAL universe.  This supercluster of galaxies contains OVER 8,000 galaxies.  Now guess how far it is from our Milky Way galaxy?  It's about a BILLION LIGHT YEARS AWAY!

And that's just going in that direction!

This is why I laugh when people talk about trying to find the center of the universe. 

Finding the center of a bagel -- yes!   The center of the universe -- no!

[muman613]

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

Universe with a Beginning

In 1959, a survey was taken of leading American scientists. Among the many questions asked was, "What is your concept of the age of the universe?" Now, in 1959, astronomy was popular, but cosmology ― the deep physics of understanding the universe ― was just developing. The response to that survey was recently republished in Scientific American ― the most widely read science journal in the world. Two-thirds of the scientists gave the same answer: "Beginning? There was no beginning. Aristotle and Plato taught us 2400 years ago that the universe is eternal. Oh, we know the Bible says 'In the beginning.' That's a nice story, but we sophisticates know better. There was no beginning."

That was 1959. In 1965, Penzias and Wilson discovered the echo of the Big Bang in the black of the sky at night, and the world paradigm changed from a universe that was eternal to a universe that had a beginning. After 3000 years of arguing, science has come to agree with the Torah.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Yes, our belief is that G-d is without beginning and without end. But the physical world does have a definite beginning and will have an ultimate end. What I was trying to say is that the pagans and the secular believe that the world (in some form) existed forever. The Torah brought the idea that creation had a starting point to the world. Recently science has validated this idea with the concept of the big bang. What I think the article you linked was trying to say was the old view of a universe which had no beginning and will have no end.

What if G-d's creation is us and the way we see the world? In the end we will be resurrected back to the perfect earth?

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

These are purely thoughts.

[angryChineseKahanist]

Folks, while you were looking for the center of the universe, I just found the center of the solar system:

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Still having those problems with comprehension, are we?

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,79667.msg656054.html#msg656054


PS: I don't see anything in your reply which can be considered a 'Jewish Perspective'... If you care to elaborate.

I'm Jewish, so the statement was my Jewish perspective.

The fact that we have a belief/beliefs about the purpose or the culimation of creation says nothing about physicality, and importantly, DOES NOT lend any credence whatsoever to geocentrism or other incorrect ideas.    I'm just clarifying is all.

[Yerusha]

If you hold by an acentric 16 billion year old universe over a 6000 year old geocentric one, that is incorrect, both by true science and Torah!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If you hold by an acentric 16 billion year old universe over a 6000 year old geocentric one, that is incorrect, both by true science and Torah!

That's simply false.

Your "true science" is about as true as your falsified rabinical quotes and obama's claim to support Israel's security.

[Yerusha]

Obviously the Jewish year "5775"  has no meaning to you , and Yehoshua's command to the Sun & Moon to stop, even less.

Despite your moniker, you are not a serious Kahanist!

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Obviously the Jewish year "5775"  has no meaning to you , and Yehoshua's command to the Sun & Moon to stop, even less.

Despite your moniker, you are not a serious Kahanist!

   Because Rav Kahane stated unequivocally that the earth is only 5,000 something years old and if you disagreed with that then you cannot join him? Where did he even talk about this issue?

   The Torah speaks in the language of man.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

These are purely thoughts.

 Foundation of the Torah is that the universe had a beginning. G-D created something out of nothing.  (including time and space)

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Foundation of the Torah is that the universe had a beginning. G-D created something out of nothing.  (including time and space)

Tag, I don't know what to think about that supposed new finding. But if G-d has no beginning or ending.... How do we know if his creation of the universe has a beginning or ending? What if his explanation of the creation in the Torah is for us, because we are too primitive to understand his creation... I'm not fighting, I'm just trying to understand.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Tag, I don't know what to think about that supposed new finding. But if G-d has no beginning or ending.... How do we know if his creation of the universe has a beginning or ending? What if his explanation of the creation in the Torah is for us, because we are too primitive to understand his creation... I'm not fighting, I'm just trying to understand.

"What if his explanation of creation in Torah is for us because we cannot possibly understand"

I wouldn't say that's impossible.

You would enjoy Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim.  In there he stresses the belief in creation ex nihilo but he uses eternity of the world as one of his premises by which he proves God's existence and he also says that if eternity could be proven (there was no evidence, only aristotle's and other philosophers' conjectures) we would have to reinterpret the Torah verses accordingly.  So, somewhat paradoxical but in the end, you definitely have to say that an eternal world was acceptable in principle (IF it was proven) to Rambam and not a religious problem.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Obviously the Jewish year "5775"  has no meaning to you , and Yehoshua's command to the Sun & Moon to stop, even less.

Despite your moniker, you are not a serious Kahanist!

Still waiting for those quotes, chump.

 *crickets chirping.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Tag, I don't know what to think about that supposed new finding. But if G-d has no beginning or ending.... How do we know if his creation of the universe has a beginning or ending? What if his explanation of the creation in the Torah is for us, because we are too primitive to understand his creation... I'm not fighting, I'm just trying to understand.

  G-D and His creation are separate entities.

[Yerusha]

Still waiting for those quotes, chump.

What quotes, twerp?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

"Show me an exact quote where Rabbi Kahane denied that the earth revolves around the sun, since you quoted his name.  Give me source and page numbers.  I'm waiting.
(And even if he did, then he was wrong about it.  But I doubt he said what you claim)."

[Yerusha]

Just like you don't believe that R.Kahane said that the "The Haredim are irrelevant!", not everything he ever said was written down chapter & verse; you'll just have to take it that he said it from those who were actually there.

That the Torah, Nach, Chazal all hold that the Earth is stationary, the evidence of the senses that it is stationary, all experiments that it's stationary, all practical sciences are performed on the basis of a stationary Earth (including NASA launches), and all savants admit that geocentrism cannot be disproved and as Einstein himself stated is at least a primus inter pares: and you dare to say that R.Kahane, R.MM Schneersohn, R.Kanievsky, R.Ginsburgh etc etc are wrong: you kofer!

"We cannot feel our motion through space. Nor has any experiment ever proved that the Earth actually is in motion" (Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Dr. Einstein, p. 73)

[angryChineseKahanist]

...

why so angry? take it easy with Yerusha - whoeverheis.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Just like you don't believe that R.Kahane said that the "The Haredim are irrelevant!", not everything he ever said was written down chapter & verse; you'll just have to take it that he said it from those who were actually there.

LOL

You serially fabricate quotes of rabbis and now you say "just trust me he said it" because you know we can call you on it when you fake the quotes.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

and all savants admit that geocentrism cannot be disproved

Especially when we define "savant" as "Anyone who disbelieves heliocentrism."  That is how you draw the target around your arrow for all the positions you adhere to, making all the rabbinic scholars agree with you, and all those who don't, well, they are simply not called rabbis then.   Oh, and if they didn't say it, and there's no record of them saying it, then we'll just pretend they said it.

You have recreated the "Kahanist" in your own image, but no one wants to be you or anything like you.

and you dare to say that R.Kahane, R.MM Schneersohn, R.Kanievsky, R.Ginsburgh etc etc are wrong: you kofer! 

Rich coming from a pedo like yourself.

"We cannot feel our motion through space. Nor has any experiment ever proved that the Earth actually is in motion" (Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Dr. Einstein, p. 73)

Typical cherry-picking of meaningless quotes to pretend that discredited scientific hypotheses are true according to "real science."  Real cherry-picked, sound bite and quote-based science.   Science is not a hodgepodge of quips and one-liners, you predator clown.

[muman613]

KWRBT,

I know you can care less about my opinion. But I'm gonna give it to you anyway.

Sometimes you come off as a real jerk. (Pardon the expression). You always start in attacking people for saying something you disagree with. Have you ever tried letting people say what they want, disagreeing with it, and not making it a personal attack?

Often times I think you write interesting things and it really disappoints me when I see you resorting to attacks and defensively quoting and attempting to defame your 'opponent'. This is not the kind of Jewish discussion that I am familiar with. Showing respect to a fellow Jew who apparently shares a reverence of the sage Rabbi Kahane Zt'l should come naturally. What is gained by this kind of discussion? Does it make JTF look like a responsible group if we are virtually always sniping at long time members.

I do not think Yerusha is a troll as some have suggested. Sure I know I have been wrong about it in the past but I really think he is a Jew who shares a portion in the World to Come with each of us.

Regarding the topic. I do believe that physically the solar system as described in science is the truth. Measurements of the planets make sense in light of this arrangement, and our experiences in space have demonstrated this apparent fact. As I said before I reconcile the sages ideas through the concept of a spiritual center of the world, which may or may not mirror the physical. I believe that our senses are not infallible and scientific understanding changes with time.

But mainly I want to say to you KWRBT, I ask kindly of you to please try to be more understanding of other Jews, and it is my hope that we can respect each other, and demonstrate that Ahavat Yisrael is a reachable goal and a commandment.

If you have read this entire message please realize that my initial statements were meant to get your attention and not to provoke you to respond angrily to me.