Religious anti-Zionists

[RationalThought110]

Why are there anti-Zionists living in Israel and why do they think they believe in the Torah if they're against Israel?  Since they're anti-Zionists, do groups like Agudah Gur tend to not serve in the military?

[Ehud]

There are anti-Zionists in Israel because their parents were Israeli and for whatever reason, they decided to stay.  They believe in the Torah, but they believe that they will be brought to Israel through non-forceful means by the Mashiach and that people can't just decide to go because it would be against G-d's wish.  I might not be entirely accurate on that.  Anti-Zionists almost never serve in the army although I don't know how low the numbers are.

[RationalThought110]

Is NahadHaredi pro-Zionist?

[Dominater96]

Look at Ketuvim daf 111, it talks about the 3 oaths, Rabbi Kahane talks about it in ohr harayon.

[judeanoncapta]

Right but how much sense does it make to focus on Ketuvim 111a and ignore the enire Tanakh, the entire Rambam, Sefer HaCHinuch, many of the writings of the Maharal, Ramban and others?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Maybe their opposition is becuase of the heretics who have taken control over Israel. Many Jews believed that since many of the zionists were athiests and not religious Jews the whole movement would fail. Also theirs something about good cant can from something bad, aka you cant do a mitzva from an avera.
 Thier are different opinions, everyone has their way of learning and applying, whats important is to try to present your arguments in a respectful way and to regognize that their are differences in Torah law, and each Jew should find himself a Rav and follow him. (every page of the Talmud has a Mahloket- but whats the difference between the giants then and from many people now is that it wasnt personal, and not full of hate,etc.)

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

if you want to know my personal opinion here it is. I belive that moving to Eretz Yisrael is one of the greatest things, but can also be bad if the individual doesnt act proper. A Jew can be 1,000 times greater in Israel when he does a Mitzva (+ every second their if you have the intent is a Mitzva), but when a Jew sins their it can bring the worse tragedy for him (expecially the land and nation), becuase the averot are also looked upon as a lot worse.  Israel is like G-ds palace. The whole world (and everything) is his kingdom, but Israel is where his presence is.  To do something good or to sin in his (closer) presence is a lot times multiplied.
 While in galut we should work on our traits and performence of Mitzvot so when we go their we can do what is demanded of us.

[DownwithIslam]

First of all even if someone goes to Israel to sin, it is still better than living in AMerica. If all the jews moved to Israel, their would be no intermarriage. I don't care what anybody says, their is no justification for being Anti Zionist. If your jewish brothers and sisters living in Israel are in trouble, even if you are against the state, you must help  them. Lubavitch is not in favor of the government but Jews are living in Israel so they do whatever they can to help them.

[EagleEye]

Why are there anti-Zionists living in Israel and why do they think they believe in the Torah if they're against Israel?  Since they're anti-Zionists, do groups like Agudah Gur tend to not serve in the military?

That makes sense.  If they are anti-zionist, then what the heck are they doing there?  Sort of comes off as hypocritical.

Its like people who say America was stolen from Indians.  But then they stay there.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

First of all even if someone goes to Israel to sin, it is still better than living in AMerica. If all the jews moved to Israel, their would be no intermarriage. I don't care what anybody says, their is no justification for being Anti Zionist. If your jewish brothers and sisters living in Israel are in trouble, even if you are against the state, you must help  them. Lubavitch is not in favor of the government but Jews are living in Israel so they do whatever they can to help them.

its sad to say that their is also intermarriage in Israel. in some ways its worse because some people dont even think that they are marrying a goy. you have some russian goyim who came to Israel, their children speak and act Israeli, then they go out and some Jew thinking she or he is Jewish gets married to them and then theirs problems. thats why when anyone gets married today their is an organization that they should contact to see the liniage of their partners.

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi Ben Roshel, I don't disagree with you and I am sure that does happen. Basically you know if the person you are marrying is jewish. This is mainly a problem with the russian immigrants and doesn't affect sephardim or Israeli born ashkenazim. I don't believe this happens often. I still believe going to Israel is better than living here and I will do that when I am financially independent.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Why are there anti-Zionists living in Israel and why do they think they believe in the Torah if they're against Israel?  Since they're anti-Zionists, do groups like Agudah Gur tend to not serve in the military?

That makes sense.  If they are anti-zionist, then what the heck are they doing there?  Sort of comes off as hypocritical.

Its like people who say America was stolen from Indians.  But then they stay there.

Becuase maybe they are their becuase they love the land of Israel and are labeled anti-zionist because they hate the govenment and the system.
 Zionist can have different meanings. In a certain way you can even define some Kahanists as being anti-zionists. (our interpretation (threw Rav Kahane) of zionist is simply loving the land of Israel and wanting it to be a Jewish homeland).
 

[DownwithIslam]

Why are there anti-Zionists living in Israel and why do they think they believe in the Torah if they're against Israel?  Since they're anti-Zionists, do groups like Agudah Gur tend to not serve in the military?

That makes sense.  If they are anti-zionist, then what the heck are they doing there?  Sort of comes off as hypocritical.

Its like people who say America was stolen from Indians.  But then they stay there.

Becuase maybe they are their becuase they love the land of Israel and are labeled anti-zionist because they hate the govenment and the system.
 Zionist can have different meanings. In a certain way you can even define some Kahanists as being anti-zionists. (our interpretation (threw Rav Kahane) of zionist is simply loving the land of Israel and wanting it to be a Jewish homeland).
 

Ok that is not what we mean by anti zionist though. Anti zionist means you want Israel destroyed.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Why are there anti-Zionists living in Israel and why do they think they believe in the Torah if they're against Israel?  Since they're anti-Zionists, do groups like Agudah Gur tend to not serve in the military?

That makes sense.  If they are anti-zionist, then what the heck are they doing there?  Sort of comes off as hypocritical.

Its like people who say America was stolen from Indians.  But then they stay there.

Becuase maybe they are their becuase they love the land of Israel and are labeled anti-zionist because they hate the govenment and the system.
 Zionist can have different meanings. In a certain way you can even define some Kahanists as being anti-zionists. (our interpretation (threw Rav Kahane) of zionist is simply loving the land of Israel and wanting it to be a Jewish homeland).
 

 


Ok that is not what we mean by anti zionist though. Anti zionist means you want Israel destroyed.

then that probably is only NK. I know others say that their anti-zionists, but that can mean many different things. It can mean that they are against the govenment, could mean that had we had the chance it would have been better not to create Israel and give a secular anti-Torah government power so that they would brainwash many of our kids and put them (expecially Sefardim) into anti-religious schools where Jews would go against the Torah. It could also mean that one believes that the redemption will only come threw a direct intervention threw heaven with Mashiahs arrival.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

another possibility is that the media try's labeling some Jewish religious groups as anti-zionists in that they paint a false picture of religious Jews hating their fellow Jews, then making it as if to say see you dont want to be like them, you should be like us and accept our rule, we (the secular entity) will bring you security and redemption, while they (the orthodox) will have cause you pograms and hatred from the outside world.
 - people dont allways be quick to judge.

[judeanoncapta]

It could also mean that one believes that the redemption will only come threw a direct intervention threw heaven with Mashiahs arrival.

The Rambam says many times that there is not one Mitzvah in the Torah that one should not do if he is able to do because Mashiah has not arrived. That would include living in Israel, conquering the land and building the Temple.

[nopeaceforland]

These are not real Jews! These morons should be kicked out of Israel.