Polygamy.

[jdl4ever]

1.  Rabbis may not be followed blindly especially if they tell you to do erroneous things and anyone who does is not only not absorbing any of the Torah they studied, but is better off not being born since what do you accomplish learning Torah but not absorbing it and applying it?  Is this what G-d wants us to study the Torah for, to not follow it?  Rabbi Kahane says it best and writes in Pirush Hamakabe on Samuel the following :

"And on this Chanah said "no my master ...", and our Rabbis explain (Bracot 31:): "You are not a master with regard to this thing, and Ruach Hakodesh is not resting on you since you accuse me of this thing."  From hear we learn that a Jew is permitted to confront a leader, even if he is the leader of the generation, but must do so with respect.  And here Eli admitted to his mistake, for immediately he said (17):  "Go in peace, and the L-rd of Israel should give you your request."

He also says the following in Pirush Hamacabe on Shoftim:

"If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgement. then thou shalt arise , and go up to the place which the lord thy G-d shall choose. and thou shalt do according to the sentence ." (Parshat Shoftim, 17: 8-10)

We can learn out from the words "if there arise a matter too hard for thee.", that if you have a question regarding something you don't know, then you must ask. But if you are certain of the answer, do not ask, but rather make the halachic decision on your own. And it is unfortunate, that today many have become robots without common sense, who turn to the rebbe for everything, turning him into idol worship, so much so, that they disregard any other rabbi, and even turn heretical in disgracing other Torah scholars. And this seems to be what the Ibn Ezra is saying on the verse (11): " 'and you shall observe to do according to all that they inform thee' regarding something too hard for you".

"Be careful, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your G-d, which he made with you, and you make a carved idol, or the likeness of anything, which the Lord thy G-d has commanded you." (Parshat Vaetchanan, 4:23)

This verse is difficult to understand, for it should say at the end, ".which the Lord thy G-d has forbidden you." It seems that the interpretation is like this: Do not make a carved idol, or the likeness of anything, including of things which G-d commanded us. In other words, don't make idol worship out of things which you admire, such as the Holy Temple, Sefer Torah, or a great rabbi, for this too, is idol worship. This is why the verse continues, "for the Lord is a consuming fire, a jealous G-d". In other words, worship must be exclusive to G-d only; and He will not tolerate any competition or partnership in worship. .....

There is a sad and dangerous phenomenon today, and it is: the growing tendency of students relying completely on the rav, or the "gadol", going after him like a blind man in the dark, not deviating right or left -- without the willingness to think for themselves. This personality worship essentially prevents the student from independent thought, and is dangerous for the student and for Judaism. Instead of striving to serve and worship G-d, they accept upon themselves the service of the rebbe, and if he says "white" and tomorrow "black", the student will follow him, and will boast that he obeys his rebbe and adheres to the mitzvah of "not deviating from the right or left". Indeed, this is a dangerous and bitter phenomenon, which turns the Jew from a thinking individual to a robot.

2.  I repeat myself again that you are completely wrong that one may not make a new Chidush in the Torah.  Completely wrong.  R' Kahane, Rambam, Rashi, the Talmud, and all the Rabbis made there own interpretations of verses in the Torah and not everything they said was transmitted through their parents or Rabbis, even if you have a fantasy that this is indeed the case.  Some things were transmitted,  other things they say are their unique ideas based on other commentaries and other times they made up their own unique interpretations.  Even if someone makes a Chidush on the english translation it may be correct, if you happen to prove it wrong by showing the translation was not accurate then fine, but don't knock it until you disprove it.  I have proof of this as well in Pirkei D'rabbi Eliazer if you don't believe that the Rabbis made up their own unique ideas on the Torah.

3.  I am not upset that you don't accept my view of the Rav.  I respect your opinion about R' Kahane not being a throwback from a previous generation since you know very little about him.  My problem is that you don't respect my opinion that he was a throwback and mock my viewpoint by saying it's ridiculous to even consider him on par with the Vilna Goan, which is insulting to the Rav.  You may not agree with me but you must at least respect my opinion considering how great R' Kahane Zs'l was and not mock it. 

4.  Most of the "Gedolim" thought that R' Kahane Zs'l was crazy.  See how few Gedolim actually gave him even the most mild and underhanded compliments after he died.  Only R' Mordechai Eliyahu and the Lubovitcher Rebbe actually respected him and supported him.  If the majority of the Gedolim had their way, no Russian Jews would have never been freed until the collapse of the Soviet Union (which at that time no one predicted that such a superpower would collapse so for all they know a million Russian Jews would have been lost forever). 

[Daniel]

According to wikipedia, Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism has outlawed polygamy since the 11th century.

One question I would ask for Chaim is if he agrees with a woman's having the right to ask for a divorce.

My sense would be that Chaim would agree that the woman has very right to ask for a divorce. But that woman can only remarry once she is given a "get" from her husband. Otherwise, she is not allowed to remarry until she receives the get. I heard that in some orthodox communities, they actually beat the husband up in order to coerce a get from him. I'd be curious to know if Chaim would agree with this tactic.

..the product of misinformation. The only time the Bait din(court) beats up the husband is if he was abusive to his wife and refuses to divorce her..they will also excummunicate him(cherem) if the need be.

Okay, I stand corrected. It's just something I heard about. If I remember correctly, I think there was an episode of the Sopranos where something like this was displayed.

The media distorts Judaism and Jewish people to better suit the idea of an american jew automarticaly being an assimilated reformer, NEVER trust what the media says about the orthodox community, if yuo want to learn about orthodox jews, talk to them..

The first time I heard of this concept, it was not from the media. It was from a Jewish listserv I was on where there were orthodox Jews that were discussing and advocating this concept.

[Lisa]

...but the main idea is that if no one has said it before, and if there's no tradition from one's rebbe, it isn't Torah. "assur chadash min hatorah" - chasam sofer. Lisa's argument seemed to be valid, but it lacked the main part of any torah argument - received tradition, it was a chidush, and as we have seen, chidushim are not valid.

So let me get this straight.  I'm not allowed to have and express an opinion unless the same thing has been stated by some other rabbi in the past? 

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my entire life! 

[jdl4ever]

Exactly Lisa, he actually thinks this way, but it makes no sense. Plus I have outright proof that he is wrong.

[jdl4ever]

This is what's wrong with many of the Yeshivas today as I stated earlier (which some posters attacked me for).  See for your own eyes the nonsense they brainwash young Jews to believe in, to be blind sheep without being able to think for themselves and without actually understanding the Torah but instead being a blind follower of what their "Rabbis" tell them to do.  See for your own eyes, I want denominator96 and his friend to see this.

[newman]

This might only apply to us goyim but when you blindly accept everything one rabbi or minister says, you can find yourself taking a cup of coolaid from Jim Jones or end up burning in Waco.

[chakma613]

1.  Rabbis may not be followed blindly especially if they tell you to do erroneous things and anyone who does is not only not absorbing any of the Torah they studied, but is better off not being born since what do you accomplish learning Torah but not absorbing it and applying it?  Is this what G-d wants us to study the Torah for, to not follow it?  Rabbi Kahane says it best and writes in Pirush Hamakabe on Samuel the following :

"And on this Chanah said "no my master ...", and our Rabbis explain (Bracot 31:): "You are not a master with regard to this thing, and Ruach Hakodesh is not resting on you since you accuse me of this thing."  From hear we learn that a Jew is permitted to confront a leader, even if he is the leader of the generation, but must do so with respect.  And here Eli admitted to his mistake, for immediately he said (17):  "Go in peace, and the L-rd of Israel should give you your request."

He also says the following in Pirush Hamacabe on Shoftim:

"If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgement. then thou shalt arise , and go up to the place which the lord thy G-d shall choose. and thou shalt do according to the sentence ." (Parshat Shoftim, 17: 8-10)

We can learn out from the words "if there arise a matter too hard for thee.", that if you have a question regarding something you don't know, then you must ask. But if you are certain of the answer, do not ask, but rather make the halachic decision on your own. And it is unfortunate, that today many have become robots without common sense, who turn to the rebbe for everything, turning him into idol worship, so much so, that they disregard any other rabbi, and even turn heretical in disgracing other Torah scholars. And this seems to be what the Ibn Ezra is saying on the verse (11): " 'and you shall observe to do according to all that they inform thee' regarding something too hard for you".

"Be careful, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your G-d, which he made with you, and you make a carved idol, or the likeness of anything, which the Lord thy G-d has commanded you." (Parshat Vaetchanan, 4:23)

This verse is difficult to understand, for it should say at the end, ".which the Lord thy G-d has forbidden you." It seems that the interpretation is like this: Do not make a carved idol, or the likeness of anything, including of things which G-d commanded us. In other words, don't make idol worship out of things which you admire, such as the Holy Temple, Sefer Torah, or a great rabbi, for this too, is idol worship. This is why the verse continues, "for the Lord is a consuming fire, a jealous G-d". In other words, worship must be exclusive to G-d only; and He will not tolerate any competition or partnership in worship. .....

There is a sad and dangerous phenomenon today, and it is: the growing tendency of students relying completely on the rav, or the "gadol", going after him like a blind man in the dark, not deviating right or left -- without the willingness to think for themselves. This personality worship essentially prevents the student from independent thought, and is dangerous for the student and for Judaism. Instead of striving to serve and worship G-d, they accept upon themselves the service of the rebbe, and if he says "white" and tomorrow "black", the student will follow him, and will boast that he obeys his rebbe and adheres to the mitzvah of "not deviating from the right or left". Indeed, this is a dangerous and bitter phenomenon, which turns the Jew from a thinking individual to a robot.

2.  I repeat myself again that you are completely wrong that one may not make a new Chidush in the Torah.  Completely wrong.  R' Kahane, Rambam, Rashi, the Talmud, and all the Rabbis made there own interpretations of verses in the Torah and not everything they said was transmitted through their parents or Rabbis, even if you have a fantasy that this is indeed the case.  Some things were transmitted,  other things they say are their unique ideas based on other commentaries and other times they made up their own unique interpretations.  Even if someone makes a Chidush on the english translation it may be correct, if you happen to prove it wrong by showing the translation was not accurate then fine, but don't knock it until you disprove it.  I have proof of this as well in Pirkei D'rabbi Eliazer if you don't believe that the Rabbis made up their own unique ideas on the Torah.

3.  I am not upset that you don't accept my view of the Rav.  I respect your opinion about R' Kahane not being a throwback from a previous generation since you know very little about him.  My problem is that you don't respect my opinion that he was a throwback and mock my viewpoint by saying it's ridiculous to even consider him on par with the Vilna Goan, which is insulting to the Rav.  You may not agree with me but you must at least respect my opinion considering how great R' Kahane Zs'l was and not mock it. 

4.  Most of the "Gedolim" thought that R' Kahane Zs'l was crazy.  See how few Gedolim actually gave him even the most mild and underhanded compliments after he died.  Only R' Mordechai Eliyahu and the Lubovitcher Rebbe actually gave him major complements. 

We can only attempt to confront our rebbes, and especially gedolim, once we have learned a great deal of Torah, until then, voicing dissent based on our own meager understanding, is in violation of the dictum "mitzvah lishmoa ledivrei chachamim", an answer to which, you still have not given. It seems to me that you are disparaging the Gedolim, and you are forcing me to respect an opinion that is not in sync with the general consensus - something I will not do. I see Rabbi Kahane as a political figure for the most part, the term "rabbi" is thrown around a lot today - unless a person has smicha from a really chashuv rav, it doesn't mean much other than his ability to pasken shailos. I concede that one may make chidushim on the torah BUT, not for halachos, only for things like hashkofa, and even that's a stretch..but to pasken a shailah about something of a halachik issue, based on a chidush, is ridculous. I did not mean to imply that we should worship the gedolim, but denying their scholarship, and their competency, is simply wrong, and it is also a violation of the mitzvah to honor a talmud chacham, something that you are not doing by exclusively following the views of one rabbi. I can certainly knock a halachik decision made by an english translation, no one credible would accept such a view; the words of the torah are extremely intricate and have many layers, we cannot understand them much less draw conclusions based on them, if they are not understood in the original hebrew. The Gedolim who you so scornfully mock, are the authority of the Jewish people, and much as you would like to think of Judaism as individualistic - it isn't. We can question, indeed questioning is healthy, but we do not follow our own decisions. What Lisa did is exactly what the Conservative movement does, they base their halachik decisions on their own interpretation of the text. Her "pshat", is nothing more than an understanding based on no prior information - pshat is always based on a competent authority.

You seem to think that the Rav was the only authority on Torah and that the entire frum community is wrong because they didn't follow him - throughout history we have had sages that have led us, but to say that we only should follow the ideas of one person over the gedolim, is not anything torah-dik in the least.

Furthermore, what Lisa said showed that she did not understand my position: I was speaking in terms of Halacha, not in philosophy, we do not make up halachos like you did, it simply is not done. You cannot form your own opinion on Halacha, it would be like saying that al the rabbis are wrong and that you yourself, as ole person, is correct, sound familiar? It should, the karaites say something similar, they say that the rabbis are wrong ands that the torah is theirs to manipulate. If that's were the Kahanist movement is going..I fear fro its survival.

On a final note, I never said to follow the rabbis if they are incorrect, but show me a time when the gedolim were in fact, incorrect? they aren't in terms of halacha. It's hard for some people to realize how arrogant it is to think of themselves as beig equal to someone who spends their entire life meditating over the Torah.

[chakma613]

This is what's wrong with many of the Yeshivas today as I stated earlier (which some posters attacked me for).  See for your own eyes the nonsense they brainwash young Jews to believe in, to be blind sheep without being able to think for themselves and without actually understanding the Torah but instead being a blind follower of what their "Rabbis" tell them to do.  See for your own eyes, I want denominator96 and his friend to see this.

Ok, so all yeshivos are wrong, and you, a solitary figure, are correct? That makes a lot of sense...the Roshei Yeshivos know a heck of a lot more than we do, and to say differenlty is an insult to them

[jdl4ever]

MANY of the Yeshivas, not all of them.  Who said anything about myself?  I'm nobody. 

[jdl4ever]

You knock me for insulting Gedolim, you just spit in R' Kahane's face with your remark that he wasn't a real Rabbi.  I hope I'm reading your comment the wrong way. 

It seems to me that you are disparaging the Gedolim, and you are forcing me to respect an opinion that is not in sync with the general consensus - something I will not do. I see Rabbi Kahane as a political figure for the most part, the term "rabbi" is thrown around a lot today - unless a person has smicha from a really chashuv rav, it doesn't mean much other than his ability to pasken shailos

I am happy that we have cleared this up.  As far as Halachah (daily Jewish Law and customs) is concerned, one can not make their own Halacha based only on their unique view of a verse, but it must be based on previous customs and previously transmitted Halachos.  I agree with this summary of what you stated but only with regard to Halachah since Halachah is transmitted very closely from generation to generation.   But with regard to everything else, one may make their own unique interpuitations of the Torah.  Lisa did not make an Halachic remark as far as I know so I still don't understand your problem with her post, so you should appoligize to her. 

So far, I am the only one really quoting Torah here and backing up my words with Torah as well as the words of R' Kahane which quote the Torah.  So if you have a problem with something I say, give me a Torah argument.  Until then you are merely saying mere words without substance.  As for your accusation that I only follow R' Kahane and blindly follow everything he says, that is incorrect.  I am a Kahanist, but I follow the Rav because I have studied his positions and agree with them from a Torah perspective.  Plus, I don't follow everything he says as you claim.  On a few occasions my Torah view point is different than the Rav and I follow other Rabbis on these few occasions where I honestly don't see the Torah the same way as the Rav does. 

I'm sure you know of the Bar Kochba revolt where the majority of the Rabbis said that Bar Kochba was the Moshiach including the great R' Akiva, so don't tell me that the majority of Rabbis can not be wrong on an issue my friend.

[DownwithIslam]

JDL4EVER, I agree with you totally. I think the bigger problem with yeshivas today is the fact that almost all of them besides some lubavitch yeshivos, treat rich children far better than they do the poor. It is an insane epidemic fueled by the rabbis desire for money and contributions. I have witnessed this firsthand so I know it to be true. I personally know a bunch of guys who are totally not religious because of this. Unfortunately the yeshiva world is a total dissapointment producing many young men who are willing to fight for nothing as long as they can live in comfort here. I feel that the only way lakewood and the brooklyn yeshiva guys would support Israel is if they had some financial incentive to do so. I remember back when I was in 6th grade in yeshiva, I got in trouble along with 2 other kids for disturbing the class or some nonsense like that. We all were brought to the office to meet with the principal. Me and one of the other kids who was brought in come from middle class homes. The third guy was from a very wealthy family. He was a large donater to the yeshiva. He was separated from the group of three, brought to another room where pizza had been ordered in for him. I almost couldn't believe my eyes. Only many years later did I convice my parents that the story was true. They are no longer surprised. I will never forget this story and it shows what prostitutes many yeshiva heads are.

[DownwithIslam]

I know my last post was a little off topic but it is true. It stems from the overall corrupt nature of the yeshiva system and the rosh yeshivos in general. They condition little children and ultimately big ones to follow them blindly. It is convenient for them for it to be this way. This is why the products of the yeshivas are the way we see them. This is why some people who come on here get all excited when we question their rabbeim. Lets not forget they are people as well and that they are mortal. They are not g-d.

[jdl4ever]

Downwithislam, I believe your story and I got even a more provocative one.  My father was a middle class guy with several children and wanted to send one of us to this Yeshiva who charged an obscene sum of money for tuition, but he couldn't afford the whole tuition so he asked them if they can give him a little discount.  They refused to give him any discount and said "if you can't afford it then send him to public school".  Luckily they found a cheaper Yeshiva.  But this just shows you how messed up some of these Yeshivas are.  Some are corrupted by money.  Others are just outright insane and brainwash kids into being blind sheep w/o thinking for yourself as the one I went to for High School was.  They start right away telling you how stupid and pathetic you are and how the Gedolim are G-d and must be followed blindly, then they tell you your parents are stupid, only the Yeshiva has the correct path to G-d and to not listen to your parents.  Then when you ask them something they can't give an answer to they say "I have Daas Torah" so listen to me.  I'd like to give them some "Daas Tuchas" with my foot in their Tuchas.   

[Lisa]

I agree with you completely Downwithislam. 

Although many rabbis most likely mean well, they are human, just like us.  While we can admire their knowledge, that's no excuse to follow, and idolize them like mindless robots.  Judaism is a religion, not a cult. 

[DownwithIslam]

JDL4EVER, I know of many cases like yours. The yeshivos are simply a business which is unfortunate. Many of the yeshivas own nursing homes as well. This is well documented. Their excuse is that the money brought in helps give children a jewish education. What BS. It is simply so the yeshiva heads can line their pockets with dough. I know of many cases like the one jdl4ever mentioned. I know of cases where the yeshiva will accept the child for a reduced tuition but will treat him like crap. It just pisses the hell out of me that yeshivos don't treat everyone fairly. I can't handle it. I used to feel so helpless when I was in yeshiva when I saw such frightening double standards. Rich kids can literally burn a building down on the yeshiva's grounds and get away with it while a poor child can breathe at the wrong time and get thrown out. How sad.

[Lisa]

I have two stories for you guys. 

First off, my parents and relatives are all Iranian Jews, many of whom used to live in Queens.  Some of them sent their kids to a certain Yeshiva, which I won't name here.  Anyway, this Yeshiva was run by religious fanatics, and as a result, these kids refused to eat in their parents homes.  They insisted that their parents dunk all their dishes/silverware in a mikvah before they would eat with them.  Of course, the parents were outraged. 

Now for the second story.  There was this Iranian Jewish man who really liked this young Iranian Jewish religious woman.  He was head over heels in love with her.  At first, the woman was not interested, as he was much less observant.  But the man persisted, and agreed to become more religious, and the two ended up marrying and having a son. 

So a few years later, on a Friday afternoon during the summer, at around 2:00 p.m., the wife and son went out to run some errands.  They were probably gone about two hours, during which time the husband repeatedly called the house.  (I guess she didn't have a cell phone with her.)  Anyway, the mother and son returned home, when the husband called again for the umpteenth time.  The husband demanded to know where the two had been.  When the wife told him she was running errands with their son, the husband went crazy. 

He said to her "Did you ever stop to consider what would happen if the two of you got into a car accident?" 

The wife was like "Uh, no.  What are you talking about?"  To which the husband replied:

"My son would have ended up breaking Shabbath!"

As a result of this, (and most likely similar arguments) the woman ended up becoming less religious than the husband.

[DownwithIslam]

Their is a famous incident which happened at the dinner of a very respected Far rockaway located jewish girls school dinner. This is a very religious orthodox jewish girls school. A few years ago the owners of THE NATIONAL WHOLESALE LIQUIDATORS, some chain store owned by jews, were honored at this schools dinner. The wife of the honoree came to the dinner in very revealing clothing. She was wearing a very short skirt and she had on a sleeveless top which showed lots of cleavage. As all of you that are familiar with the way orthodox women dress would know that this is outlawed in the jewish world. Many people found this offensive and the yeshiva was criticised. The excuse was that they helped jewish children get an education.

[Lisa]

Downwithislam, I've also heard that the conditions of these nursing homes you refer to is deplorable. 

[chakma613]

Downwithislam, I believe your story and I got even a more provocative one.  My father was a middle class guy with several children and wanted to send one of us to this Yeshiva who charged an obscene sum of money for tuition, but he couldn't afford the whole tuition so he asked them if they can give him a little discount.  They refused to give him any discount and said "if you can't afford it then send him to public school".  Luckily they found a cheaper Yeshiva.  But this just shows you how messed up some of these Yeshivas are.  Some are corrupted by money.  Others are just outright insane and brainwash kids into being blind sheep w/o thinking for yourself as the one I went to for High School was.  They start right away telling you how stupid and pathetic you are and how the Gedolim are G-d and must be followed blindly, then they tell you your parents are stupid, only the Yeshiva has the correct path to G-d and to not listen to your parents.  Then when you ask them something they can't give an answer to they say "I have Daas Torah" so listen to me.  I'd like to give them some "Daas Tuchas" with my foot in their Tuchas.   

'


There are 70 'faces' to torahno yeshiva contests that, however I fiormly believe in da'as torah, evidently you don't whihc makes you in sync with the Modern Orthodox view - something I know the Rav disagreed with. Anyway, in many cases, one's parents are not stupid, but simply wrong. The commandment to honor one's father and mother is overruled when they tell their child to break torah, or want them to in any way shape or form. To say that an institution of torah learning - something divine - is corupt, is total lashon hara h even if you don't name names. Not to mention that it is chillul hashem - you may very well turn people off to the Yeshiva world with statements like that. You say you'd like to hurt a rabbi now, just because youy don't agree with the idea of da'as torah? how much sense does that make? I realize you're kidding, but it isn't funny at all

[DownwithIslam]

Lisa in response to your first story, I am experiencing the same exact story with my 17 year old younger brother. Only difference is that I will name the yeshiva. It is yeshiva Darchei Torah in Far Rockaway NY. My brother was the nicest guy in the world until his 10th grade rabbi made him crazy. My brother thinks that because he learns torah that everyone must serve him and that he is the reason the world exists. His rabbi told this to his class in school and my brother comes home expecting that this be implemented. He demands to always check what my mother cooks not trusting that its kosher enough for him. My mother only cooks kosher. My brother always loved chaims shows and he always laughed at the shvartza impersonations chaim did. Now my brother thinks chaim is a beast and lowlife and just calls him a looser. My brother also thinks any jew who is not religious can be abused cheated and lied to as they are not human. His rabbi in school told them that because the 3 israeli soldiers who were kidnapped weren't religious that he and none of the "bachurim" should car less about them. He also said "they will pay for their sins." I have not talked to my brother in 7 or 8 months simply because he no longer recognized me as human. He walks around with his white shirt making fun of everyone who is not religious. It is a shame that this snakepit yeshiva in far rockaway ruined my brother like this. When I look at him, I am thankful that I am not like him. My mother just thinks he is temporarily confused but I think it is worse than that. The white shirt yeshivas  need to be avoided like a plague. I know lubavitchers wear white shirts and are certainly not in this category but almost all other yeshiva folks are. It is a shame. I should add that I discussed the  issue of my brother with JUDEANONCAPTA and he provided comforting words. He is a prime example that their are exceptions to the rule and that not all yeshiva people fit in this category.

[chakma613]

I have two stories for you guys. 

First off, my parents and relatives are all Iranian Jews, many of whom used to live in Queens.  Some of them sent their kids to a certain Yeshiva, which I won't name here.  Anyway, this Yeshiva was run by religious fanatics, and as a result, these kids refused to eat in their parents homes.  They insisted that their parents dunk all their dishes/silverware in a mikvah before they would eat with them.  Of course, the parents were outraged. 

Now for the second story.  There was this Iranian Jewish man who really liked this young Iranian Jewish religious woman.  He was head over heels in love with her.  At first, the woman was not interested, as he was much less observant.  But the man persisted, and agreed to become more religious, and the two ended up marrying and having a son. 

So a few years later, on a Friday afternoon during the summer, at around 2:00 p.m., the wife and son went out to run some errands.  They were probably gone about two hours, during which time the husband repeatedly called the house.  (I guess she didn't have a cell phone with her.)  Anyway, the mother and son returned home, when the husband called again for the umpteenth time.  The husband demanded to know where the two had been.  When the wife told him she was running errands with their son, the husband went crazy. 

He said to her "Did you ever stop to consider what would happen if the two of you got into a car accident?" 

The wife was like "Uh, no.  What are you talking about?"  To which the husband replied:

"My son would have ended up breaking Shabbath!"

As a result of this, (and most likely similar arguments) the woman ended up becoming less religious than the husband.

..eating food from non-kashered utensils would be eating non-kosher food. That student was completely justified in wanting his parents to kasher their utensils - however, it has to be done in the most respetful way possible. You also are ranting about an isolated incident, and a comment made by an obviously torah-ignorant person(viz a viz the stroy about the son breaking shabbos)

Also, not eating in a non-kosher home is hardly being a religious fanatic - kashrus is, like any other law, uncompromisable. As I said though, the way he handed it may have been wrong, but the Yeshiva who toldm him that he coud not eat food from their plates was 100% correct, however he could probably eat rom a paper plate on a different surface than the table with treif on it, if he uses plastic silverware(just my own idea, NOT halacha lema'aseh)

[DownwithIslam]

Chakma, if you sin against g-d he forgives, if you sin against another man, you must get forgiveness from that person before g-d forgives you.

[Lisa]

Chakma, the parents of these students were already kosher.  But the Yeshiva told the students that their parents homes were not kosher enough for them. 

[chakma613]

You knock me for insulting Gedolim, you just spit in R' Kahane's face with your remark that he wasn't a real Rabbi.  I hope I'm reading your comment the wrong way. 

It seems to me that you are disparaging the Gedolim, and you are forcing me to respect an opinion that is not in sync with the general consensus - something I will not do. I see Rabbi Kahane as a political figure for the most part, the term "rabbi" is thrown around a lot today - unless a person has smicha from a really chashuv rav, it doesn't mean much other than his ability to pasken shailos

I am happy that we have cleared this up.  As far as Halachah (daily Jewish Law and customs) is concerned, one can not make their own Halacha based only on their unique view of a verse, but it must be based on previous customs and previously transmitted Halachos.  I agree with this summary of what you stated but only with regard to Halachah since Halachah is transmitted very closely from generation to generation.   But with regard to everything else, one may make their own unique interpuitations of the Torah.  Lisa did not make an Halachic remark as far as I know so I still don't understand your problem with her post, so you should appoligize to her. 

So far, I am the only one really quoting Torah here and backing up my words with Torah as well as the words of R' Kahane which quote the Torah.  So if you have a problem with something I say, give me a Torah argument.  Until then you are merely saying mere words without substance.  As for your accusation that I only follow R' Kahane and blindly follow everything he says, that is incorrect.  I am a Kahanist, but I follow the Rav because I have studied his positions and agree with them from a Torah perspective.  Plus, I don't follow everything he says as you claim.  On a few occasions my Torah view point is different than the Rav and I follow other Rabbis on these few occasions where I honestly don't see the Torah the same way as the Rav does. 

I'm sure you know of the Bar Kochba revolt where the majority of the Rabbis said that Bar Kochba was the Moshiach including the great R' Akiva, so don't tell me that the majority of Rabbis can not be wrong on an issue my friend.

You were indeed reading my comment wrong. I was not saying that the rav was a 'fake' rabbi - his smicha was kosher, and as I said, I respect him greatly, but not for his lumdus; I like his politcal platform, but I don't agree with his perush, or at least with what I've read of it.

What you said about halacha was exactly what I was trying to say to Lisa, and I think we had a bit of a misunderstanding. I just did not want others to not understand the halachik process which could have easily been done if one read what Lisa wrote. BUt you are right, in maters other than halacha, we can certainly draw conclusions from torah, provided that they are approved of by a competent rav(i.e., the chasam sofer's statement of "assur chadash min hatorah", this was a hashkofic saying for the most part based on a pasuk).

I gavce you a torah argument for why we need to folow our rebbeim - iq uoted the Talmud i saying that if a rebbe says to his student to think that eft is rigth and right is left he must follow him, I also quoted the principle of mitzvah leshmoa ledivrei chachomim, and to add to that list, it says in pirkei avos "asai lekha rav", accept upon yourself a teacher. These are my arguments - I'd appreciate an answer.

[DownwithIslam]

Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.