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hello
MarZutra:
My, my...I wasn't expecting such a response.
First of all I should say that my 3rd belief "good vs evil" is not set in stone. I'm still trying to figure it out in my own mind. Because, I do think that there are certain actions that are good and certain ones that are bad.Can you supply an example?
I just suppose in regards to conflict I just view it more holistically, there are always two sides. Each side believes that what they are doing is right and just, and that the other side is wrong. Yes but which side caters to factually correct information, is logical and may include morality while the other is a purely socio-political agenda based on "politically correct" propaganda and disinformation. A pristine example is the fact that there is no such thing as a "Pal estinian People" yet the media continually promulgates this historyless Arabian Muslim People to their ancient lands in the "West B ank" while if one looks further one sees the blatant agenda to distance any association between Jews and Israel and Judaism and Judea/Samaria. Another example is the fact that there is not one mention of Jerusalem in the Quraan but over 800 in the Tenach. Jerusalem has absolutely no importance whatsoever to Islam period, end, full stop. Logically one must ask why is the world so interested in a lie that Jerusalem is the "Third Holiest City in Islam" but, even leftist Jews, can't even cater to the fact that it is the Holiest city to Judaism?One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. You might research where this adage came from and who coined it. Purely Marxist my friend.... So, in reality there's no way completely determine who in fact is right. Sure there is. Read the Quraan and tell me if it mentions Jerusalem even once and then read your Torah. If you don't see the facts as they are clearly displayed and ask yourself why the media and so-called "educational" system propagates utter lies you will begin to see the political and social agendas here at work. The fact that "Pa lestine" was never a functioning nation with any aspect of a viable entity, ever, one must logically ask how a "Nationality" and a "People" separate from any of the other Arab/Moslems from Morocco to Iraq was formed and why?People just automatically assume that their own beliefs and actions are correct. Not at all true. If one is a closed minded ignoramus this statement holds water but if one takes the time to research both sides and researches key elements one can again see an agenda at work especially if one reads up on the basic goals and/or requirements of certain political, social, religious ideologies. Upon educating oneself in these areas the bias within any issue jumps out. Did not Joseph Goebbels, also afforded to Hitler, say "The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one." with similar by Stalin? All Communist/Socialist/Nazi movements are based on politically correct propaganda....end.
Now if somebody were to come into my house and tell me how to live, of course I'd fight back. At the time however, I am not arrogant enough to believe that since my paradigm works for me, that it must work for everyone.
So it's really a question of morality, and morals fluctuate. Morals most certainly do not fluctuate there is moral and immoral the same as there is good and bad. Socialism and all these other Leftist ideologies propagate such foolishness to replace the concrete Laws of G-d to "fluctuating" laws of man. What is considered acceptable today may not be acceptable 200 years from now. Ah, the wisdom in your words. This most certainly applies to G-dless Humanism/Socialism/Communism ect but not to Judaism as the Laws are given and final.
So, I suppose my contention is that while I to believe that there is good and bad, it's not set in stone. Well, at least you are admitting you're a leftist/socialist etc. This is where that particular logic stems.
I would also like to take the time to say, that while you may consider me to be a self-hating jew, in reality I do not hate myself, my heritage or the Jewish people. I just don't believe in certain aspects of Judaism. Probably because you are unlearned on the concepts and logic of Judaism?
In terms of Kahane, I went onto Kahane.org and I read some of his writings. And quite frankly, I found them rather disturbing. Can you give any examples? I suggest that you select one particular topic and research both sides of the coin. For example "Global Warming". Read all the Leftist stuff and then, for example, go to Www.CanadaFreePress.Com and read some of theirs or go to google video and watch "The Great Global Warming Swindle". Then research the facts and see whose holds water and whose doesn't. Who is making the statements and is he qualified or his he, like Al Gore, just an over paid elitist political whore.
I found him to be a scared, racist, and vengeful man. There is absolutely nothing racist about Rabbi Kahane, Nothing. Sorry brother but if one looks at the realities on the ground today all over the world, you will see that Rabbi Kahane was far ahead of his time. Switzerland, France, Holland are passing legislation to actively encourage Islamic/African emigration because of the problems of "embracing diversity" and "multiculturalism" has had on their once nice countries.The reason I said "If he were born into the Islamic religion, he would be the leader of the Taliban!"is becuase to me, they have the same mentality:
"Our way is the right way, our way in under attack! We must eliminate anyone who doesn't agree with our way!!!" Before you make such a misguided statement please read the Koran and Hadith and compare ISlamic history to Jewish History and Judaism. You are comparing apples to oranges.
To quote Kahane:
"It is a great mitzvah to take the revenge of the righteous and humble the evildoer. Whoever forgoes or rejects such an opportunity is cruel, and he denies belief in G-d."
-A mitzvah? Are you kidding me? Well then apparently I'm cruel for believing in forgiveness. This is because you don't know Judaism. Should you forgive some person who hates Jews and chooses to rape and murder your daughter? Brother, in all honesty, your brain has been infected with Joseph Stalin's "Political Correctness" and Liberal ineptitudes. You must think logically. What the Rabbi is saying is that it is a Mitzvah to eliminate evilness from the world. It is called Kiddush HaShem vs. Chilul HaShem. This is logical and moral because without evilness what is left? Open your mind brother...
And another quote:
"For it is only vengeance that proves that there is indeed a G-d in the world., that there is good and evil and punishment for that evil." Exactly...relates to my above position. Evil should and must be punnished. You have a problem with this?
- Vengeance proves that G-d exists? How backwards is that? All you have to do is look around to believe. Personally, I find it very hard to believe that G-d...the source of everything, the creator of the heavens and the earth, would truly feel a petty human emotion such as wrath and vengeance. Did he not give us free will and the laws of how to lead a moral life and also give many examples of what not to do?
Not my G-d. My G-d is not some angry invisible man in the sky, looking down upon us judging and critiquing; making sure we don't break any rules or else we'll get punished.
My G-d is thing that we are a part of, it is life itself. It is us and we are it. And since it is just one thing, (as Abraham originally said) if I hurt another, I am ultimately hurting myself...Did Abraham not smote the Egyptian that was harming the Jew? Why did he do this? Did he do it to eliminate Evil? Was it a good deed to kill that evil man? "Thou shalt not stand idly by thy brother's blood"? Open your mind brother and look for the logic and the moral quality as to how it relates to the given position. You are judging without understanding the depth....
Ehud:
--- Quote from: qa4383 on September 02, 2007, 02:15:29 PM ---My G-d is thing that we are a part of, it is life itself. It is us and we are it. And since it is just one thing, (as Abraham originally said) if I hurt another, I am ultimately hurting myself.
--- End quote ---
Ok, I'm on board with what you said except this part. I do agree with you that always in conflict, each side thinks that they are good. Much of the time one man's good is the other man's evil. That doesn't mean that you can't use your brain to determine who's actually evil and who's actually good. Of course there will be some evil aspects and some good aspects to nearly everything. The question is to what degree. If something has 90% good and 10% evil, it's a good thing. We live in the real world where there are no absolutes. If something is 90% evil and 10% good, we need to label it as evil. A situation might not necessarily be able to be framed as good vs. evil, sometimes it is evil vs. less evil.
I just think that stopping to get as much information as possible about both sides in a conflict and coming to a decision about what is evil and what is not, is the lazy man's way out. It's basically like saying, "yes this issue is really complicated there are so many factors to take into consideration, I don't want to think through it anymore so I'm just going to give up and say that there is no good or evil."
It seems like it's a scientific, "objective", enlightened, or reasoned way to think, but in the end of the day it's just laziness and an inability to make a hard decision. People who say that there is no good or evil are copping out of trying to figure a situation out, and it gives them an air of wisdom even though most of these people are just ignorant and unable to objectively weigh positive and negative criteria.
Anyway, your quote disturbed me a bit when you said "we are G-d, and he is us." I think I might be interpreting it a bit wrong. It seems to me to be a purely humanist stance, like "there is no G-d, we are G-d." I hope that's not what you're trying to say. Indeed, we are part of G-d's creation and everything around us has G-d's hand as its cause of existence but we definitely are not G-d.
Also, if you hurt evil people, you are not hurting G-d because humans have free will to do what they want. Also, saying that hurting another person is ultimately hurting yourself is one of those "sounds nice" ideas that fails to work in the real world. There are countless examples of how hurting another person benefits or prevents harm to yourself. If someone is coming to murder your family and you murder him, preventing the slaughter of your entire family, you are definitely not hurting yourself. There are countless situations where hurting someone else does not hurt you that it renders that statement as completely absurd.
newman:
This new poster is symptomatic of the sick, amoral tide that is sweeping Israel and the west.
"There's no good & evil, no wright & wrong, it's all shades of gey, it's all relative"....!!
The moral relativism results in a complete lack of morals. These people can no longer tell the difference between the IDF and the PLO, Elliott Ness and Al Capone, Mother Theresa and Ted Bundy!
MarZutra:
Good post ZJ and Newman. I agree with you 100%. The sad fact is that these Jews have embraced Socialism/ Liberalism over Judaism. Probably the product and outcome of "politically correct" Deformed "Judaism".
The most evil quality of these Leftist is their ability to "rationalize" any negative or evil issue into an outcome they so desire. A staple of Dialectical Materialist philosophy. There is no Black and White with a small grey area to be debated or ruled either way. These Liberals and their "open mindedness" have eliminated the Black and White to be left with a mass of grey area to be "rationalized" and changed to fit the human, or State's, constanly changing "needs"....from the communist manifesto.
So both Newman and Zev what you say is 100% correct and perhaps if this new poster thinks of it for more than 3 seconds and entertains some logic as it relates to every leftist attack on so-called "right wing" or conservative issues...he should be able to entertain logic and see the light of the lies of the left and the purpose....for those lies.
EagleEye:
Good and evil exist, though I usually use the terms moral and immoral instead. Moral people try to rise above the lowest parts of human nature. Immoral people are sociopaths, with a machiavellian mentality of "the ends justify the means." They are in the pre-conventional stage of thinking, only motivated by rewards and punishments, whereas moral people are in the post-conventional stage of thinking, having principles of right and wrong, and sticking to them even if they are not popular.
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