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mord:
Anyone who does'nt believe in good vs evil is insane. If a group of people lets say 6 people were gang raping your mother or wife and someone came along and and stopped them. Would the one who stopped the rape of your loved one be the good or the evil
Ehud:
To further elaborate on my point. Let's say that theoretically and for argument's sake that there is actually no good or evil. Let's say that good and evil are constructs we make and that there is no objective good or evil. Even if this was to be the case, most people will not think like you. Very few people in the world believe that there is no good or evil, and people will never come around to this belief because it is natural to believe in good and evil to make the world comprehensible to us. Humans need to fit things into neat little categories and if we can decide what is good and evil, that helps us sleep at night.
The problem is that even though you might not believe in good or evil, most other people will, and there will be many other people who will think that YOU are evil, what YOU stand for is evil, and your entire existence is evil. If you don't think that what you stand for is good, you will be defeated by them because you will not have a reason to fight. Although the concept of no good or evil is acceptable on the individual level, imagine if an entire society thought that they weren't good and that there is no good or evil. The people attempting to destroy them aren't necessarily evil, and the group that doesn't believe in good or evil doesn't have a reason to fight because they don't think that they are good or that they necessarily need to defeat the evil. That group is calling for its own destruction.
Believing in good and evil is a survival mechanism, without it, people would simply cease to exist.
People would also cease to act. Many actions that a human being does are driven by the fact that they think it's a good thing. Every person gets self-worth by believing that they are good, and what they stand for is good. That's how ideas get started, how political and economic movements are created, how countries are established, indeed, how the world operates. That's how great inventions are created, the people creating them believe them to be good and believe them to be beneficial for mankind. Obviously if the people believe they are doing something good, something else must necessarily be evil, because without the evil thing there would be no way to tell if what you are doing is good. It's a necessary component to believing that what you are doing is good, to also believe that what someone else is doing is evil.
Imagine what the world would be like if everyone believed that there is no good or evil. All progress would grind to a halt. People are motivated to do things, they get inspired by, and create because they feel that what they are doing is good and will create good. If you take that impetus to act away, humans would just become mindless, unmotivated drones.
If you truly believe that there is no good or evil (which I don't think is really the case) I feel sorry for you. People get joy in their life thinking that they are doing good and that they are working towards the furtherance of good in the world. Without that motivation, what is the purpose of life? Why continue living if you are not good and what you are working towards is not good?
MarZutra:
I was invited here by someone I was debating with on youtube who goes by the user name is cahanewasright. He/she asked me to join the forum because I am what most of you would consider a self-hating jew. Most "self hating" Jews are Jews that have embraced the Stalinist ideology of "Political Correctness" disinformation over Factually Correct information and therefore have allowed themselves to become very closed minded and wilfully diluded with ignorance and molestations.He/she said that this forum needed "left winged" people to debate with. So here I am. Good for you. I do hope to converse with you openly and directly on this forum. As the "Self Hating" Jews are doing a great disservice of peace but also morality and logic especially in the Geopolitical arena.
I will just start of with stating some of my beliefs:
- I believe that Kahane was very wrong. If he were born into the Islamic religion, he'd be the head of the Taliban. Have you ever read any of his works? I find Rabbi Kahane to be not only highly logical but a very moral individual that had amazing abilities to bring out factually based reasononings within every debate, lecture or discussion. There is a VERY big difference between the Taliban and Kach for example which stems from a VERY big difference between Islam and Judaism. Which one is built on "Love thy neighbor" and which one does not even have the concept written within its pages or history?
- I believe that Israeli policies are detrimental to the Jewish community.I agree with you here because Israeli policies are not based on any of the moral teachings of Judaism but are of immoral, illogical and are Socialist in nature. I agree with you...
- I believe that there's no such thing as good vs. evil If there is no such thing as good or evil, how would you propose any nation or society to operate efficiently let alone develop a code of laws or legal statues? Even the Code of Hammerabi lies with the base in this concept as well Roman and all Case Law. So if someone, G-d forbid, rapes and murders your sister would you "rationalize" the situation and blame it on, as a "scape goat", of being poor or perhaps his second cousin once removed from his father's 3rd marriage was an alchoholic....Or would you say that he CHOSE to do this vile deed (of course one must accept the idea of good and evil for it to be even considered a crime) and therefor consider his actions immoral and purely evil in its base?
I will be happy to further discuss my beliefs with anybody who would like to do so. Sounds fine to me. Please remember to keep an open mind and cater to both logic and fact leaving out political and religous agenda and you/we shall be fine. Welcome
PS: I was exactly like you 10 years ago. I suggest you read Rabbi Kahane's works or listen to his lectures or debates. One would call Rabbi Kahane a "racist" because he called the Arabs animals or dogs but neglect to place this in the light of the given situation: bombing and mass murder of Jewish children at Hebrew schools or bus bombings. One too must ask oneself if this comment was not actually correct in its logic given the situation even further how does it compare to the ACTUAL Islamic scriptures taught in the Mosques that Jews are Apes and swine to be killed to the last? Everything must be entertained logically, factually and in perspective. The problem today is that mainstream media and many of the Socialist organizations do not give accurate reportings but intentially skewe their commentaries/reportings to fit a particular agenda; which in most cases is International Socialsim: Globalism... Please feel free to contact me privately should you wish to discuss or debate openly.... :)
OdKahaneChai:
Please explain your opinions a bit more. Why do you think Rav Kahane was "very wrong"?
qa4383:
My, my...I wasn't expecting such a response.
First of all I should say that my 3rd belief "good vs evil" is not set in stone. I'm still trying to figure it out in my own mind. Because, I do think that there are certain actions that are good and certain ones that are bad.
I just suppose in regards to conflict I just view it more holistically, there are always two sides. Each side believes that what they are doing is right and just, and that the other side is wrong. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. So, in reality there's no way completely determine who in fact is right. People just automatically assume that their own beliefs and actions are correct.
Now if somebody were to come into my house and tell me how to live, of course I'd fight back. At the time however, I am not arrogant enough to believe that since my paradigm works for me, that it must work for everyone.
So it's really a question of morality, and morals fluctuate. What is considered acceptable today may not be acceptable 200 years from now.
So, I suppose my contention is that while I to believe that there is good and bad, it's not set in stone.
I would also like to take the time to say, that while you may consider me to be a self-hating jew, in reality I do not hate myself, my heritage or the Jewish people. I just don't believe in certain aspects of Judaism.
In terms of Kahane, I went onto Kahane.org and I read some of his writings. And quite frankly, I found them rather disturbing.
I found him to be a scared, racist, and vengeful man. The reason I said "If he were born into the Islamic religion, he would be the leader of the Taliban!"is becuase to me, they have the same mentality:
"Our way is the right way, our way in under attack! We must eliminate anyone who doesn't agree with our way!!!"
To quote Kahane:
"It is a great mitzvah to take the revenge of the righteous and humble the evildoer. Whoever forgoes or rejects such an opportunity is cruel, and he denies belief in G-d."
-A mitzvah? Are you kidding me? Well then apparently I'm cruel for believing in forgiveness.
And another quote:
"For it is only vengeance that proves that there is indeed a G-d in the world., that there is good and evil and punishment for that evil."
- Vengeance proves that God exists? How backwards is that? All you have to do is look around to believe. Personally, I find it very hard to believe that God...the source of everything, the creator of the heavens and the earth, would truly feel a petty human emotion such as wrath and vengeance.
Not my God. My God is not some angry invisible man in the sky, looking down upon us judging and critiquing; making sure we don't break any rules or else we'll get punished.
My God is thing that we are a part of, it is life itself. It is us and we are it. And since it is just one thing, (as Abraham originally said) if I hurt another, I am ultimately hurting myself.
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