Why does Tovia Singer defend Islam?

[Binyamin Yisrael]

http://www.toviasinger.tv/small-bites/do-jews-believe-mohammad-was-a-prophet-and-is-the-quran-anti-semitic

[edu]

I listened to about half of the talk.
I think he is distorting Muslim-Jewish relations making them much better than they really were.
Both Rambam and Ohr Hachaim who lived in Muslim countries felt Islam was the worst exile.

He is hiding our deep ideological divisions with Islam.
As I brought in other posts, although Rambam, under tremendous pressure to find some justification for the many Jews who buckled under the threat of
"Either Die or Accept the Deity of Islam and its prophet" doesn't classify Islam as pure idolatry (although even he classifies it as heretical) there are many great rabbis in Jewish History who did classify Islam as idol worship. The Gaon, Rabbi Nachshon for example, said Muslims are idolators although they do not realize they are idolators.
As far as teaching Torah is concerned to non_Jews, Rambam himself is more liberal towards Christians (who accept the text of the Jewish Bible as we have it) than he is toward Muslims
See Teshuvot Harambam Siman 149 for more details about when yes and when no.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Tovia Singer lives in Indonesia so that might have something to do with it. He is the rabbi of a congregation of lost Jews. They aren't lost tribes. They are descendants of assimilated Jews who lives in Indonesia. He was raising money before Passover to fund the seder there.

[Israel Chai]

It's getting bad.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I would argue that this is the core reason why Israel is utterly unwilling to take care of its Arab problem.

[Zelhar]

Is it true that Tovia moved to Indonesia?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I would argue that this is the core reason why Israel is utterly unwilling to take care of its Arab problem.

Huh?  This has zero to do with it.

Jews in Israel have zero affinity for islam and arabs.  They know exactly what it is and what it has done to them.  All sorts of other reasons involved.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Huh?  This has zero to do with it.

Jews in Israel have zero affinity for islam and arabs.  They know exactly what it is and what it has done to them.  All sorts of other reasons involved.

 It definitely plays a role.
 
 If we REALLY knew what Islam is about we wouldn't tolerate it. And this isn't just the non-Religious and especially the traditional majority. This is specifically a problem within the Dati and especially the Haredi communities who are dominated mainly by Askenasi culture and mindset and unfamiliarity with Arabs and Islam.
  If people really read the Rambam In its plain text without their biases they would see the problems of Islam and in fact how it isn't a "righteous Bnai Noah" movement, etc.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It definitely plays a role.
 
 If we REALLY knew what Islam is about we wouldn't tolerate it. And this isn't just the non-Religious and especially the traditional majority. This is specifically a problem within the Dati and especially the Haredi communities who are dominated mainly by Askenasi culture and mindset and unfamiliarity with Arabs and Islam.
  If people really read the Rambam In its plain text without their biases they would see the problems of Islam and in fact how it isn't a "righteous Bnai Noah" movement, etc.

But his argument is that scholarly Jewish religious belief is behind the Jewish reluctance to deal with its terrorist problem.  You are saying they should read religion to really understand why they're wrong.   Then you can't possibly agree with CF. 

I think CF is also saying that cheap propaganda like "golden age of islam" (which lasted what? 100 years? lol) and its supposed good relations with Jews and all such crazy stories contribute to Jewish weakness toward Islamic terrorist enemies.  I don't think it's a factor even if some stupid people fall for this stuff.

I also challenge you to prove that the assumption of the Monotheistic nature of Islam is behind its treatment or the treatment of Arabs in Israel.   

If people thought Muslims were straight up idol worshippers how would that in any way change their neuroses vis a vis Peace Accords, negotiation, and liberal tolerance of our killers?

The PFLP leader was a supposed Christian. When their group murdered Jews it was the same Peace Industry response as when the allah akbar guys did it.

The Israelis who succumb to notions of Oslo-itis and the Commandments of the Peace Industry do so because their will has been eroded by the violence and the terror and they sincerely (mistakenly) believe it is the way to stop it.    Not because they are fond of Islam lol

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Tuvia's expertise is not in Islam and it is sickening that he would downplay its evil.   Using underhanded tricks to do kiruv is low.

Would he actually get physically attacked there if he said differently though?

[Zelhar]

I think things may have changed but I can tell you that when I was growing up I got the notion that somehow Islam is better to Jews as Christianity. We were taught about pogroms and the crusades and how old theological antisemitism lead to the new racial form collimating in the holocaust. The Islam is more tolerant somehow, it is also 'more similar' to Judaism in it being purely monotheistic with similar dietary laws etc. I grew up in a very rather anti-religious atmosphere but hey at least the muslims and the religious Jews were more similar type of primitives than say crusaders and cossacks.

Huh?  This has zero to do with it.

Jews in Israel have zero affinity for islam and arabs.  They know exactly what it is and what it has done to them.  All sorts of other reasons involved.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Huh?  This has zero to do with it.

Jews in Israel have zero affinity for islam and arabs.  They know exactly what it is and what it has done to them.  All sorts of other reasons involved.

Yes, this is exactly what I am saying. Bad theology in Israel does have a lot to do with Arab coddling just like bad Christian theology in the West has a lot to do with illegal alien coddling.

We have to face the fact that Chaim is one of those rare gems who sees through the nonsense.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

If people thought Muslims were straight up idol worshippers how would that in any way change their neuroses vis a vis Peace Accords, negotiation, and liberal tolerance of our killers?

The PFLP leader was a supposed Christian. When their group murdered Jews it was the same Peace Industry response as when the allah akbar guys did it.

The Israelis who succumb to notions of Oslo-itis and the Commandments of the Peace Industry do so because their will has been eroded by the violence and the terror and they sincerely (mistakenly) believe it is the way to stop it.    Not because they are fond of Islam lol

1: There are extraordinarily few non-Kahanist rabbis/theologians willing to call Islam what it is, the modern descendant of Canaanite paganism.

2: The "Ishmael is my brother" mindset still applies.
 
3: Plenty of idiots on the Israeli far left, which completely dominates all Israeli cultural, scholastic, and governmental organs, are fond of Islam or at least profess to be.

I would also add that the fact that Tovia Singer's teachings on Islam are so very well accepted within most of Judaism is more proof that this bad theology is a real problem. Who has a problem with what he is saying outside of JTF?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I would also add that the fact that Tovia Singer's teachings on Islam are so very well accepted within most of Judaism is more proof that this bad theology is a real problem. Who has a problem with what he is saying outside of JTF?

Hehehe  I assure you that very very few people outside JTF and the people he is talking to have any idea what he is saying.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

1: There are extraordinarily few non-Kahanist rabbis/theologians willing to call Islam what it is, the modern descendant of Canaanite paganism.

2: The "Ishmael is my brother" mindset still applies.
 
3: Plenty of idiots on the Israeli far left, which completely dominates all Israeli cultural, scholastic, and governmental organs, are fond of Islam or at least profess to be.

This is one of the tools they may attempt to use to bolster their Peace Industry and promote tolerance of the other in their midst but that doesn't make it  believed  .

The national will and culture has been eroded.  This started with PM Begin but accelerated by the Oslo terror.  We need more Chaim's,  agree 100%

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think things may have changed but I can tell you that when I was growing up I got the notion that somehow Islam is better to Jews as Christianity. We were taught about pogroms and the crusades and how old theological antisemitism lead to the new racial form collimating in the holocaust. The Islam is more tolerant somehow, it is also 'more similar' to Judaism in it being purely monotheistic with similar dietary laws etc. I grew up in a very rather anti-religious atmosphere but hey at least the muslims and the religious Jews were more similar type of primitives than say crusaders and cossacks.

Do people believe this?  As adults do they retain these ideas?

[Zelhar]

I think since the second intifada (october 2000) the public perception has shifted. There are no "zionist muslims" and there are no christian terrorists. But I suppose this delusion is still promoted by the left everywhere.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

This is one of the tools they may attempt to use to bolster their Peace Industry and promote tolerance of the other in their midst but that doesn't make it  believed  .

The national will and culture has been eroded.  This started with PM Begin but accelerated by the Oslo terror.  We need more Chaim's,  agree 100%

Glad you're understanding me and not getting mad. I know as a Gentile this technically isn't my business but I have read and seen enough to know this is a problem.

I certainly don't believe that all, or most, professing Christians have been friends of the Jews, or fail to acknowledge that there was once an era where Muslims were somewhat less anti-Semitic than professing Christians, but for crying out loud, Tovia Singer and these other useful fools need to wake up and smell the jihad. To my understanding, other than the late HaRav Kahane and the Vilna Gaon that he based most of his theology on, very few rabbis or religious Jewish theologians have ever come out to declare that Arabs and Muslims are Amalek/Canaan/Nazis (fill in the blank) and are a total mortal threat. Some have done quite the opposite. Look at the ROYs of the world. It's not Israeli leftists that Ovadia Yosef and Aryeh Deri are influencing, it's "people like us". Their followers are against abortion, gay marriage, etc.

Of course, the left is using these phony-right religious figures to keep frum Israelis and Jews in general in the dark. That's undeniable. But sooner or later, "our side" needs to stand up and call them out and refute them. I am obviously no Torah Scholar but I know the (Christian) Tanach, and to me it is very clear what G-d orders done to the Nazis of the world in it.

I don't know what went on in the RamBam's head and I realize the Jewish definition of "idolatry" is different from the Christian one, but to me, it is an open and shut case. Yeah, sure, Muslims believe in one deity and Allah has some traits stolen from the Jewish G-d. I get that. But, Allah is still a false god because his character, reasoning, and the vast majority of his attributes come right out of pagan Fertile Crescent Amalekite paganism. That is exactly where jihad and the whole concept of Islamic martyrdom come from. Muslims pray to a large stone and some of them (Shiites) have rituals where they cut themselves and their children up to call upon and honor Allah. How is that not straight out of Baal worship?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I think since the second intifada (october 2000) the public perception has shifted. There are no "zionist muslims" and there are no christian terrorists. But I suppose this delusion is still promoted by the left everywhere.

Maybe so but that doesn't mean that the theo-intellectual core of the "Israeli right" has changed.

If the prevailing mindset in the religious nationalist camp is that Arabs/Ishmael is a "situational enemy" or "misguided brother" rather than a Nazi total enemy of the Jewish people and state, nothing is ever going to change. Any pressure on the Israeli secular government to deal with the modern day Canaanite butchers as the Bible stipulates is going to have to come from religious Zionists, and so far it is not happening.

[Zelhar]

We know for a fact this enemy is not going to receive the Joshua treatment no matter what. Kahanists recognize this and they propose migration of the Arab population out of Israel, with material and financial support to incentivize this exodus. I don't know if Jushua would have approved.

Maybe so but that doesn't mean that the theo-intellectual core of the "Israeli right" has changed.

If the prevailing mindset in the religious nationalist camp is that Arabs/Ishmael is a "situational enemy" or "misguided brother" rather than a Nazi total enemy of the Jewish people and state, nothing is ever going to change. Any pressure on the Israeli secular government to deal with the modern day Canaanite butchers as the Bible stipulates is going to have to come from religious Zionists, and so far it is not happening.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

We know for a fact this enemy is not going to receive the Joshua treatment no matter what. Kahanists recognize this and they propose migration of the Arab population out of Israel, with material and financial support to incentivize this exodus. I don't know if Jushua would have approved.

The majority of the Israeli "religious right" even opposes paying Arabs to leave.

[Zelhar]

There is also the sick subgroup that seek peace through inter-faith dialogue.

http://www.imamsetrabbins.org

The majority of the Israeli "religious right" even opposes paying Arabs to leave.