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Offline Sefardic Panther

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The theory of evolution
« on: December 30, 2009, 10:53:12 AM »
If any adult said the fairy tale about the princess who kisses a frog and he turns into a prince was a true story everyone would instantly brand him the village simpleton and ignore him. But when so called professors say that a similar fairy tale is true everyone believes them and their books become best sellers.

I think these people ought to know better. The only reason they believe in evolution is because they want to take god out of the picture and be free to follow their lusts and to do what ever they want.

But what is worst about the theory of evolution is the germans believed in it and they used it to justify doing the Holocaust. They beleived the blond haired blue eyed ayran race was the most highly evolved while the Jews were closer to the animals so killing them was not like killing human beings.

"Let there be a holocaust on the anti-semites!!!" - Rabbi Mordechai Friedman Shlita

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2009, 03:36:49 PM »
If any adult said the fairy tale about the princess who kisses a frog and he turns into a prince was a true story everyone would instantly brand him the village simpleton and ignore him. But when so called professors say that a similar fairy tale is true everyone believes them and their books become best sellers. 

Evolution is not a fairy tale.  There is evidence that evolution occurred in many ways.  To compare it to a princess kissing a frog and turning it into a prince is plain ignorance.   It just shows you do not understand what they actually claim about evolution.   You do not understand what the scientists claim.   If you want to deny reality and have a more simple view of the world and a simple faith, and focus on other matters, that is your prerogative, but do not "missionize" that other people should live in denial and delusion and ignorance with you.   And do not do the terrible sin of denigrating the scientific endeavor, which the Rambam says is a mitzvah.

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I think these people ought to know better. The only reason they believe in evolution is because they want to take G-d out of the picture and be free to follow their lusts and to do what ever they want.

Why do you inappropriately label every scientist like this?   Scientists "believe" evolution like they "believe" that the earth is an oblong spheroid and that the sun is hot.   They are trained to "believe" facts.   It is not really "believing" - it is accepting facts because facts are proven and do not require 'belief.'   As Torah Jews we are also supposed to accept facts.   When there is sufficient evidence for a given idea without refutation, it can be accepted as true.   You do a huge injustice to all peoples by attacking all scientists.   This is absolutely an outrage.   Scientists do not have an "agenda" except to understand the world, and more often than not to use understanding of the physical world to help people.   (There are a few, a handful of scientists who become politicized and write polemic books about their views on religion and/or G-d and/or other life issues, to which I say that no one should care what they think about these matters, and these are obviously exceptional cases that go out of their way to dogmatize and propagandize to other people in matters of philosophy and personal belief - When they write such books (Dawkins etc) they are not engaging in science!  Writing a philosophy text is not science.   It is philosophical endeavor.  And it is their conclusions in this regard that we should dispute/ignore/reject).   

There are frum Jews who are in science, or they at least accept the truth and facts of science because they want to know about G-d's creation.   And many religious non-Jews also work in science.   And there are many frum Jews in professions that rely on the facts that science has uncovered in the daily operation of their field, whether it's the medical field, or psychology, special education, fertility treatment, dna testing in medicine or police/forensics work etc etc.  And there are many frum Jews who are not necessarily connected with science but believe in many of its basic facts (such as several-billions year old universe, reliability of genetic testing and dna procedures, that the earth revolves around the sun, etc) and they do not cease from their clinging to Torah or their faith in Hashem due to any of this.   Why do you spread evil talk about all such people?    

And will we be such hypocrites and do such a desecration of the Torah and G-d's name  (G-d forbid) by abiding our lives on daily basis in practical ways that assume the truth of proven facts, but then at the same time speak out both sides of our mouth and while we benefit from our own acceptance of scientific reality, try to smear those who make the discoveries, and at the same time deny that the science and facts behind our daily lives have value or truth in them?

  Why do you sling mud at so many honest, well-intentioned people, Jew and non-Jew alike, religious and nonreligious, who enter the fields of scientific research because they wish to help other people - a desire so basic to the human fabric and such a praiseworthy endeavor?  We all know that without Hashem's rachmanut the world would cease to exist, and that we are to emulate G-d by also having rachmanut.  Yet people who do so, you will characterize them as criminals with an agenda to destroy the world?   

Research in academia for instance is not a lucrative profession compared to being a doctor or lawyer or what have you, and yet there are so many people who go into that because they want to help advance science and the understanding of diseases to help people and treat them, so that the medical profession can advance and others reap the benefits of their toiling in long hours in the lab, with little pay, little recognition except their own self-pride, and all the difficulty that comes with competing for grant money and keeping a lab up and running and producing results.   And all because it might relieve some suffering and bring new knowledge into the world.  (Knowledge about G-d's creation that G-d made).   You have no idea what that is about.  You obviously are completely ignorant of these matters.   About things which one is ignorant of, one should keep his mouth SHUT.

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But what is worst about the theory of evolution is the germans believed in it and they used it to justify doing the Holocaust. They beleived the blond haired blue eyed ayran race was the most highly evolved while the Jews were closer to the animals so killing them was not like killing human beings.

This is called "social darwinism" which was a distortion of Darwin's science to something.... get ready for it..... social.... NOT scientific.  They took a scientific fact here and fact there (or even things that are not scientific facts which they claimed were) and turned it into a sociological homicidal Jew-hating philosophy.     So that means I must now deny the facts that they hijacked and distorted into something of their own creation?   Who says I must do like they did?   And for the lies they passed off as facts which were not factual, why must I believe in them?   And out of the billions of people who today "believe" evolution occurred, where are the ones advocating Nazism based on that?     Please, get real.

Anyone can take any fact or any theory and use it to rationalize evil behavior.   This is obviously wrong.   A person can do science, just like he can do anything else in the world, without resorting to such stupidity, which is wrong in any case.   

The most important thing about learning science is to have the proper kavanah (intentions/mindset/concentration).  Science does not demand that you utilize the facts of science to deny G-d.   Science, participation in it, or study of it, only demands that a person accepts objective, demonstrated and observed proof and facts.  What you do with them is up to you.   From the perspective of science, one is free to do with these established facts as he sees fit.   One can synthesize them and conclude whatever he wants as far as 'science' is concerned.   If we are Torah Jews, we have the proper kavanah and the proper understandings of the world, that we can use the facts of science to deepen our understanding of Hashem through his creation (according to the Rambam, the only way to know G-d is through contemplating his creations) and to formulate beliefs accurately from the facts of science, to cause a stronger relationship with G-d and a greater appreciation of G-d and love of G-d.   If a person uses science to derive his own conclusions and deny G-d that is his own sin to do so.   No science demands that of him, nor does it demand any "belief," philosophy, social theory or anything else.    And if one or two or three thousand or three million or however many people choose to do that, that does not mean science is evil or that a believing Jew or believing gentile cannot delve into science or accept science and draw their own conclusions from it - theologically correct conclusions.

There is no reason for religious people to be "against" the endeavor of science.  On the contrary, the Rambam says it is a mitzvah to get closer to Hashem by contemplating His creation through study of science, to improve knowledge of His creation and see it in its vast complexity. 

And can I ask if you think science is so bad and that people should denigrate those who participate in it, why do Chazal disagree with you?  They disagree so strongly that we make a bracha (we say a blessing) when we see a tremendous non-Jewish scholar, thanking G-d for giving His chochma (wisdom) to flesh and blood, and likewise when we see a tremendous genius talmid chacham (Jewish Torah scholar), we also say a blessing that G-d gave wisdom to his people.    According to Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky that blessing for a gentile prodigy/genius of a scientific field can also be said for a secular Jew who excels in a science (ie Einstein) even if he does not study Torah since it is about the wisdom rather than the person.  There is a machloketh over whether the bracha goes on the person or the wisdom, based on the lashon (language) of it, so whether you can say the 'wisdom to flesh and blood' blessing on the Jew who excels in science rather than Torah is a discussion, but nonetheless, No One argues that we do not make a bracha if we encounter a genius scholar of the gentiles (ie if you are literally in the same room as him and see him in front of you).


It may be that you were taught some distorted ideas by people in kiruv, which caused you to become inflexible and vocal about certain hot-button issues, or you came up with this stuff on your own by assuming (mistakenly) that Judaism is against science, but it is wise to rethink what seems to be a very entrenched position you have for not any justifiable reason.   And if you will refuse to do that, at the very least do not spread the untruths you have embraced.   


The seal of Hashem is truth.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 03:45:27 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline muman613

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2009, 05:14:03 PM »
I will add that I take evolutionary 'science' with a grain of salt... Ive been around long enough to know that they change their beliefs every few years, to suit their vision of how things happened. I believe that they start with a theory then try to find facts to prove it, instead of using the true scientific method of examining the facts and coming up with a theory...

I dont give the scientists the benefit of the doubt... They are acting as if they are gods, when they really don't know very much about anything.

Sorry KWRBT, I don't buy the 'science' for what it is worth...

Surely there were mutations, as there are always mutations, but I don't believe one species can transform into another species... And the differentiation which would be expected if there was such rampant mutations is lacking from the fossil records. I don't want to argue about my ideas on the theory of evolution, but suffice to say I am a sceptic, just as I am a sceptic of human caused global warming.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2009, 06:06:43 PM »
I agree with KWRBT. I think that some people disregard evolution because it seems unrealistic, but they need to realize that it is a process that takes place over millions of years.

Offline muman613

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2009, 06:33:06 PM »
I agree with KWRBT. I think that some people disregard evolution because it seems unrealistic, but they need to realize that it is a process that takes place over millions of years.

But it has not been conclusively proven, and everyone wants to accept it because? A scientific process means that there needs to be an experiment which can be reproduced, in order to prove the theory. I don't think it is unrealistic, I believe that all animals and plants share the same building blocks of life, DNA and other processes which are spread out over a diverse number of species. Complex structures such as eyeballs, lungs, spinal systems, etc... They are virtually the same basic systems across mammals, and even fish and birds. It seems that we are all made from the same basic elements and the same basic rules of biology, i.e. sexual and asexual reproduction, warm vs cold blooded, etc...

But I believe that man must always be the ultimate creation, according to Torah. To deny the special place man attained is to deny all of Torah, in my opinion. When Hashem let the universe expand, once it reached its completed state on the sixth day, Hashem said Dieanu {Stop}.. Man is the ultimate creation and it demeans Hashems Torah to say that we are nothing other than glorified monkeys, the monkey or ape is my forefather.

Is man still evolving? What is the ultimate goal of mankind? I sometimes wish I had 12 fingers so I could enter my programs into the computer faster, and with more accuracy... Maybe those 12 finger people will be more advanced than we are... Imagine the guitar solos which could be played, or the piano concertos which can be played by those people who have 12 fingers.... Maybe our brains could get bigger? But we don't use most of our brain power so there is no need for bigger brains...

I believe mankind is the way it is for a reason, we were the ultimate purpose in creation and those who don't understand why believing that we are only upright apes is a mockery of Hashems wonderous creation of humanity.

 http://74.125.155.132/custom?q=cache:7FJo06q6aH0J:www.parsha.net/Shmos/Vayakhel60.doc+seventh+day+of+creation+universe+expanded+stop&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=google-csbe

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Hamaayan / The Torah Spring Edited by Shlomo Katz Vayakhel-Shekalim

       After reading in the last three parashot about the command to build the mishkan/Tabernacle and its vessels, we read in this week's parashah of the actual construction.  In all, observes R' Gedalyah Schorr z"l, there are seven parashot that discuss some aspect of the mishkan's construction.  Likewise, we are taught that there are seven "Heavens."

      The purpose of the mishkan was to be a "home" for Hashem.  With each of these seven parashot, the Shechinah descended from one of the seven Heavens until it reached the mishkan.

      We read in this parashah that Bnei Yisrael brought so many donations for the mishkan that Moshe had to say, "dai"/"Enough!" The gemara says similarly that when Hashem created the universe, it would have expanded indefinitely if He had not said, "dai"/"Enough!"  (This is why one of His names is "Shakkai.") What does this mean?

      R' Schorr explains that the act of creation involved Hashem's restricting His Light in order to make room for, i.e., to allow for the possibility of, a physical world.  However, He struck a fine balance so that it is still possible to find Him within the physical world.  Had He not commanded the physical world to stop expanding, that balance would have been lost and there would be no possibility of man's recognizing G-d's Light.

      In contrast to the creation of the physical world, which caused Hashem's presence to be hidden, Bnei Yisrael's construction of the mishkan caused Hashem's presence to be revealed in this world.  Here too, however, there is a limit, and it was necessary to say "Enough!"   Otherwise, Hashem's Light would overwhelm us. (Ohr Gedalyahu)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 06:45:50 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Spectator

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2009, 02:59:43 AM »
And do not do the terrible sin of denigrating the scientific endeavor, which the Rambam says is a mitzvah.

As far as I know, Rambam appreciates scientific endavor when it is necessary to restore some knowledge necessary to perform certain commandments. For example, he says that our traditional methods of calculations concerned with sanctification of month (קידוש החודש) was lost but this information we can obtain by scientific methods. So here Rambam says that we need science as an useful tool.

If I understand you right, you say that scientific endavor is a mitzvah by itself, apart from practical applications. Can you show me the source of such statement in Rambam? 
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 07:21:28 AM »
And do not do the terrible sin of denigrating the scientific endeavor, which the Rambam says is a mitzvah.

As far as I know, Rambam appreciates scientific endavor when it is necessary to restore some knowledge necessary to perform certain commandments.

No.  Science in its own right.  (Also what you are saying is of course good too and very important.   But science itself is a mitzvah to learn).  It's in the Moreh Nevuchim where he says that science is a mitzvah that brings one to a closer relationship with Hashem.    I will dig up the exact reference and put it in here bli neder.

Edit:  Please forgive my mistake as the source I was thinking of was Mishneh Torah at the end of perek yud in hilchoth teshuva.  And it also appears in Yesodei Hatorah as well.   I'm not sure that this idea is repeated in Moreh Nevuchim.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 03:45:23 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Sefardic Panther

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 08:20:03 AM »
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I think these people ought to know better. The only reason they believe in evolution is because they want to take G-d out of the picture and be free to follow their lusts and to do what ever they want.

Why do you inappropriately label every scientist like this?   Scientists "believe" evolution like they "believe" that the earth is an oblong spheroid and that the sun is hot.   They are trained to "believe" facts.   It is not really "believing" - it is accepting facts because facts are proven and do not require 'belief.'   As Torah Jews we are also supposed to accept facts.   When there is sufficient evidence for a given idea without refutation, it can be accepted as true.   

Facts? Are you sure about that? Its interesting that they still call it the “theory” of evolution. Anyway that paragraph was more so aimed at regular joe public not just the scientists. I personally know a lot of people who live an atheistic hedonistic lifestyle and its all because they buy into the theory of evolution. And don’t take me for some ignoramous red neck creationist. Science and physics were my best subjects in high school. When I was a teenager I had no interest in religion and I actually believed in the theory of evolution. But now I think its just junk science that contradicts the Torah.

Would a loving god create a world were we must dump on each other to survive? Do you think Adam and Hava were apes? How do you reconcile the theory of evolution with what Bereishith says? If there was evolution why do we even need a god?

I know for a fact that the universe is 15 billion years old because we can see light from stars and galaxies that has taken billions of years to reach us. I know of no such indisputable scientific evidence that we came from apes. And Rabbi Yitzhak of Akko (who lived in the middle ages) derived that exact same figure for the age of the universe. Is there anything in Judaic sources (pre Darwin) that confirms the theory of evolution?

Check out these videos by Rabbi Chaim Moshe Shlita. If the theory of evolution was true we would have wings!




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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2010, 03:47:15 PM »
Source where Rambam says it is a mitzvah to do science: 

End of Perek Yud in Hilchoth Teshuva (Mishneh Torah)
It can also be found in Perek Beth of Yesodei HaTorah.

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2010, 08:42:12 PM »
Quote from: Rabbinate General Rabbi Shlomo Goren
Rabbi Goren spent most of his term as Chief Rabbi of Israel attempting to reconcile Jewish religious teachings with modern problems of the state, including advancements in technological progress and various high-profile conversion cases. Goren often clashed with his more conservative rabbinical colleagues, including his Sephardic counterpart, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, and Rabbi Yosef Shalom Eliashiv, then a member of the Israeli Supreme Rabbinical Court.[citation needed]

One example of Goren's desire to adapt halakha to changing realities in science was his controversial stance on Kiddush Levana, the monthly blessing over the new moon. A prayer customarily added after the blessing contains the words "just as I dance before you and am unable to touch you." Rabbi Goren claimed that since the Americans landed on the moon in 1969, this line should be changed to reflect that it is in fact possible to touch the moon

One more reason I like to keep a picture of Rabbi Goren on the wall.  I can't seem to find a lot of his quotes online, but I always enjoy what Goren says, stories of how he acts, etc. 

From what I have read he leaned on the Rambam style of Judaism, and he was an adovate of the sciences as a result of his study of Maimonides as well.

Goren Chai!!  ;D
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2010, 11:46:59 PM »
I will add that I take evolutionary 'science' with a grain of salt... Ive been around long enough to know that they change their beliefs every few years, to suit their vision of how things happened. I believe that they start with a theory then try to find facts to prove it, instead of using the true scientific method of examining the facts and coming up with a theory...

I dont give the scientists the benefit of the doubt... They are acting as if they are gods, when they really don't know very much about anything.

Sorry KWRBT, I don't buy the 'science' for what it is worth...

Surely there were mutations, as there are always mutations, but I don't believe one species can transform into another species... And the differentiation which would be expected if there was such rampant mutations is lacking from the fossil records. I don't want to argue about my ideas on the theory of evolution, but suffice to say I am a sceptic, just as I am a sceptic of human caused global warming.
Can't say that I disagree.

Offline Yirmayahu

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2010, 01:24:51 AM »
I wholeheartedly concur with your assessment of evolution. Having been an ardent evolutionist for years before opening my eyes, I can now see that it is a religion for humanists. Someone once said that "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The humanist wants evolution to be true so badly that they're willing to take a theory and believe it as fact, or substance. Their evidence for things not seen is that they find a bone here, a fossil there or an supposedly ancient crater in the wilderness and they build a whole fairy tale over these things. It takes faith to believe that macro-evolution can occur and that kinds can mutate into other kinds. It takes faith to believe that since only 0.01 percent of mutations are not harmful or deadly to an organism that the billions of mutations (perhaps trillions of them) could have occurred in a scant 4 billion years. It takes faith to believe that a spinning dot the size of a period can explode and become everything that the universe consists of. And just like Eliyahu Ha Navi told the prophets of the Baalim, I ask the prophets of Evolution, "Where is your god? Is he asleep?"

Strangely enough, over the past fifteen years we have seen a trend where honest scientists are seeing that there just has not been enough time for macro-evolution to occur. Of course they're still humanists and cannot believe in G-d. So, the new trend is to believe in evolution via an extraterrestrial agent. This however has more problems than terrestrial biological macro-evolution; but that is a whole other story. Isn't it much easier to believe in the G-d of Abraham, Yitzak and Ya'akov, and a literal creation.
Shalom Y'all....Yirmayahu

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2010, 05:00:36 AM »
I do not believe in man-made thermal change has ever occurred, nor is it likely short of a nuclear winter.

I also think evolution panning out as part of actuality is significantly less realistic than unicorns being discovered on the moon.
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Offline christians4jews

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2010, 05:18:38 PM »
that it is a process that takes place over millions of years.

thats why its a joke theory, when you try and argue wirth it, evolutionists answer is "oh it takes millions of years"

cop out..as chaim said, a dog 1000 years ago is no diffentn to a dog now...

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2010, 01:16:55 PM »
that it is a process that takes place over millions of years.

thats why its a joke theory, when you try and argue wirth it, evolutionists answer is "oh it takes millions of years"

cop out..as chaim said, a dog 1000 years ago is no diffentn to a dog now...

But there have been millions of years for it to take place, so what is so hard to swallow about that?

And since when does 1000 years equal a million?

If Chaim didn't think that evolution posed a challenge to Judaism, he wouldn't rail against it (I don't know if he did or not, but you imply that he did, I personally did not hear that particular show).

If you didn't think evolution posed a contradiction to your faith, you also wouldn't blast it.

I can't speak for your faith, but I CAN speak for what I know of Chaim's - Judaism - and as far as I am concerned, as well as my rabbi and many people within the faith, evolution if it did happen the way science says it does, Does NOT contradict or challenge Judaism or Jewish belief.   To me, the people who attack evolution are those who 1. do not understand evolution or what it says, do not have an expertise in science to even know what they are arguing against and/or 2.  they assume (incorrectly) that what the science does prove somehow takes away from Judaism or combats Jewish belief.

Again, I cannot speak for what you believe in, but with Judaism there is no problem, and so I do not have to live in denial of facts.

Offline GoIsraelGo!

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2010, 06:00:49 PM »
G-d created man so does it really matter how man came to be? 
 

How this was accomplished still remains unsolved, and if G-d wanted men to know all the answers, there would be no arguments or speculations today.



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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2010, 06:25:53 PM »
A very wise statement, republican dox.

Offline GoIsraelGo!

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2010, 07:06:39 PM »
Thank you KahaneWasRight......       :)



Shalom - Dox   

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2010, 04:42:22 PM »
And do not do the terrible sin of denigrating the scientific endeavor, which the Rambam says is a mitzvah.

As far as I know, Rambam appreciates scientific endavor when it is necessary to restore some knowledge necessary to perform certain commandments. For example, he says that our traditional methods of calculations concerned with sanctification of month (קידוש החודש) was lost but this information we can obtain by scientific methods. So here Rambam says that we need science as an useful tool.

If I understand you right, you say that scientific endavor is a mitzvah by itself, apart from practical applications. Can you show me the source of such statement in Rambam? 




The Rambam was a great physician and would of course appreciate science

Offline matthorwich

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2016, 03:19:56 AM »
Evolution is not a fairy tale.  There is evidence that evolution occurred in many ways.  To compare it to a princess kissing a frog and turning it into a prince is plain ignorance.   It just shows you do not understand what they actually claim about evolution.   You do not understand what the scientists claim.   If you want to deny reality and have a more simple view of the world and a simple faith, and focus on other matters, that is your prerogative, but do not "missionize" that other people should live in denial and delusion and ignorance with you.   And do not do the terrible sin of denigrating the scientific endeavor, which the Rambam says is a mitzvah.

Why do you inappropriately label every scientist like this?   Scientists "believe" evolution like they "believe" that the earth is an oblong spheroid and that the sun is hot.   They are trained to "believe" facts.   It is not really "believing" - it is accepting facts because facts are proven and do not require 'belief.'   As Torah Jews we are also supposed to accept facts.   When there is sufficient evidence for a given idea without refutation, it can be accepted as true.   You do a huge injustice to all peoples by attacking all scientists.   This is absolutely an outrage.   Scientists do not have an "agenda" except to understand the world, and more often than not to use understanding of the physical world to help people.   (There are a few, a handful of scientists who become politicized and write polemic books about their views on religion and/or G-d and/or other life issues, to which I say that no one should care what they think about these matters, and these are obviously exceptional cases that go out of their way to dogmatize and propagandize to other people in matters of philosophy and personal belief - When they write such books (Dawkins etc) they are not engaging in science!  Writing a philosophy text is not science.   It is philosophical endeavor.  And it is their conclusions in this regard that we should dispute/ignore/reject).   

There are frum Jews who are in science, or they at least accept the truth and facts of science because they want to know about G-d's creation.   And many religious non-Jews also work in science.   And there are many frum Jews in professions that rely on the facts that science has uncovered in the daily operation of their field, whether it's the medical field, or psychology, special education, fertility treatment, dna testing in medicine or police/forensics work etc etc.  And there are many frum Jews who are not necessarily connected with science but believe in many of its basic facts (such as several-billions year old universe, reliability of genetic testing and dna procedures, that the earth revolves around the sun, etc) and they do not cease from their clinging to Torah or their faith in Hashem due to any of this.   Why do you spread evil talk about all such people?   

And will we be such hypocrites and do such a desecration of the Torah and G-d's name  (G-d forbid) by abiding our lives on daily basis in practical ways that assume the truth of proven facts, but then at the same time speak out both sides of our mouth and while we benefit from our own acceptance of scientific reality, try to smear those who make the discoveries, and at the same time deny that the science and facts behind our daily lives have value or truth in them?

  Why do you sling mud at so many honest, well-intentioned people, Jew and non-Jew alike, religious and nonreligious, who enter the fields of scientific research because they wish to help other people - a desire so basic to the human fabric and such a praiseworthy endeavor?  We all know that without Hashem's rachmanut the world would cease to exist, and that we are to emulate G-d by also having rachmanut.  Yet people who do so, you will characterize them as criminals with an agenda to destroy the world?   

Research in academia for instance is not a lucrative profession compared to being a doctor or lawyer or what have you, and yet there are so many people who go into that because they want to help advance science and the understanding of diseases to help people and treat them, so that the medical profession can advance and others reap the benefits of their toiling in long hours in the lab, with little pay, little recognition except their own self-pride, and all the difficulty that comes with competing for grant money and keeping a lab up and running and producing results.   And all because it might relieve some suffering and bring new knowledge into the world.  (Knowledge about G-d's creation that G-d made).   You have no idea what that is about.  You obviously are completely ignorant of these matters.   About things which one is ignorant of, one should keep his mouth SHUT.

This is called "social darwinism" which was a distortion of Darwin's science to something.... get ready for it..... social.... NOT scientific.  They took a scientific fact here and fact there (or even things that are not scientific facts which they claimed were) and turned it into a sociological homicidal Jew-hating philosophy.     So that means I must now deny the facts that they hijacked and distorted into something of their own creation?   Who says I must do like they did?   And for the lies they passed off as facts which were not factual, why must I believe in them?   And out of the billions of people who today "believe" evolution occurred, where are the ones advocating Nazism based on that?     Please, get real.

Anyone can take any fact or any theory and use it to rationalize evil behavior.   This is obviously wrong.   A person can do science, just like he can do anything else in the world, without resorting to such stupidity, which is wrong in any case.   

The most important thing about learning science is to have the proper kavanah (intentions/mindset/concentration).  Science does not demand that you utilize the facts of science to deny G-d.   Science, participation in it, or study of it, only demands that a person accepts objective, demonstrated and observed proof and facts.  What you do with them is up to you.   From the perspective of science, one is free to do with these established facts as he sees fit.   One can synthesize them and conclude whatever he wants as far as 'science' is concerned.   If we are Torah Jews, we have the proper kavanah and the proper understandings of the world, that we can use the facts of science to deepen our understanding of Hashem through his creation (according to the Rambam, the only way to know G-d is through contemplating his creations) and to formulate beliefs accurately from the facts of science, to cause a stronger relationship with G-d and a greater appreciation of G-d and love of G-d.   If a person uses science to derive his own conclusions and deny G-d that is his own sin to do so.   No science demands that of him, nor does it demand any "belief," philosophy, social theory or anything else.    And if one or two or three thousand or three million or however many people choose to do that, that does not mean science is evil or that a believing Jew or believing gentile cannot delve into science or accept science and draw their own conclusions from it - theologically correct conclusions.

There is no reason for religious people to be "against" the endeavor of science.  On the contrary, the Rambam says it is a mitzvah to get closer to Hashem by contemplating His creation through study of science, to improve knowledge of His creation and see it in its vast complexity. 

And can I ask if you think science is so bad and that people should denigrate those who participate in it, why do Chazal disagree with you?  They disagree so strongly that we make a bracha (we say a blessing) when we see a tremendous non-Jewish scholar, thanking G-d for giving His chochma (wisdom) to flesh and blood, and likewise when we see a tremendous genius talmid chacham (Jewish Torah scholar), we also say a blessing that G-d gave wisdom to his people.    According to Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky that blessing for a gentile prodigy/genius of a scientific field can also be said for a secular Jew who excels in a science (ie Einstein) even if he does not study Torah since it is about the wisdom rather than the person.  There is a machloketh over whether the bracha goes on the person or the wisdom, based on the lashon (language) of it, so whether you can say the 'wisdom to flesh and blood' blessing on the Jew who excels in science rather than Torah is a discussion, but nonetheless, No One argues that we do not make a bracha if we encounter a genius scholar of the gentiles (ie if you are literally in the same room as him and see him in front of you).


It may be that you were taught some distorted ideas by people in kiruv, which caused you to become inflexible and vocal about certain hot-button issues, or you came up with this stuff on your own by assuming (mistakenly) that Judaism is against science, but it is wise to rethink what seems to be a very entrenched position you have for not any justifiable reason.   And if you will refuse to do that, at the very least do not spread the untruths you have embraced.   


The seal of Hashem is truth.

evolution is indeed a fairy tale you stupid f /ucking retard.  never have the scientists brought a single shred of evidence supporting their bulls/ hit theory of evolution.  evolution is a myth and you bought it hook, line and sinker because you're a f /ucking retard who swallows any tripe your high school teacher taught you you stupid f /ucking idiotic f /ucking retarded piece of f /ucking idiotic s /hit.

Offline Tony Rubolotta

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2016, 11:34:20 AM »
Evolution is the belief that given two standard six-sided die, that given enough time (magic) you will eventually roll a  13.  Evolution is not a fact but an interpretation of facts that requires a single, solitary constraint, that being there is no God.  Creationists and evolutionists deal with the same facts and arrive at different conjectures.  Consequently, evolution is a comparative religious belief.  Evolutionists attempt to re-define science from the search for truth to the search for proof that God is not necessary.  I don't have enough faith to accept evolution in view of overwhelming evidence that any improvement in nature requires an intelligent driver.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2016, 11:08:19 PM »
Evolution is the belief that given two standard six-sided die, that given enough time (magic) you will eventually roll a  13.  Evolution is not a fact but an interpretation of facts that requires a single, solitary constraint, that being there is no God.  Creationists and evolutionists deal with the same facts and arrive at different conjectures.  Consequently, evolution is a comparative religious belief.  Evolutionists attempt to re-define science from the search for truth to the search for proof that God is not necessary.  I don't have enough faith to accept evolution in view of overwhelming evidence that any improvement in nature requires an intelligent driver.

This makes no sense.  And of course incorrectly describes and sums up evolution into something it's not, which is common among those who don't understand it and also assume it contradicts their religious beliefs.  Truly sad.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2016, 11:08:58 PM »
evolution is indeed a fairy tale you stupid f /ucking retard.  never have the scientists brought a single shred of evidence supporting their bulls/ hit theory of evolution.  evolution is a myth and you bought it hook, line and sinker because you're a f /ucking retard who swallows any tripe your high school teacher taught you you stupid f /ucking idiotic f /ucking retarded piece of f /ucking idiotic s /hit.

U mad bro?
Go away, troll.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The theory of evolution
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2016, 11:11:17 PM »
As far as I know, Rambam appreciates scientific endavor when it is necessary to restore some knowledge necessary to perform certain commandments. For example, he says that our traditional methods of calculations concerned with sanctification of month (קידוש החודש) was lost but this information we can obtain by scientific methods. So here Rambam says that we need science as an useful tool.

If I understand you right, you say that scientific endavor is a mitzvah by itself, apart from practical applications. Can you show me the source of such statement in Rambam? 





The Rambam was a great physician and would of course appreciate science

He explained the way to fulfill the commandment of "Knowing God" is to study scientific knowledge about the world. So while what you say is true, there was quite a bit more to it than that in the sources I was alluding to.