Author Topic: Jdl4ever fail proof tips on how religious Jews can bring close those who are far  (Read 3599 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jdl4ever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2000
I see a problem on this forum and in the Yeshivish world.  There are hundreds of thousands of non religious Jews in the world and many Jews do not know how to effectively interact with them or how to bring them close and usually they end up being overly aggressive and offensive and end drive them further away.  I've been out in the world for a while and met a lot of these people and even brought some closer I am going to give you advice on the effective tactics and techniques I learned to bring these people closer. 

1.  Many Orthodox people do not understand the circumstances that brought about the non religious Jew.  They falsely attribute such Jews as inherently evil since they are violating the commandments so as soon as they encounter such people ignore them completely or say offensive things to them.  The first rule to understand is that us religious Jews are spoiled compared to the not religious Jews and it is not their fault that they are not religious but they are victims of circumstance.  We religious Jews went to Yeshiva since we were children, had religious parents and ancestors going back many generations, practiced Orthodox Judaism since we were born and are well educated about Judaism.  Most of the non religious Jews have never had a Jewish education and know next to nothing about our religion, in fact their whole life they were brought up in an anti religion liberal self hating environment, and their only education about religion was through public school and university.  Most of the time their parents are also not religious.  They know next to nothing about Judaism, so we must be as warm as possible and have as much love and understanding as possible to bring these people back. 

2.  You must admire the non religious Jew and treat him better than you treat yourself since it is he or she who has a greater spiritual potential than yourself.  It is these people who have a greater potential in heaven then us religious Jews since G-d does not give men tests that they are incapable of passing.  If you were born a religious Jew, then the Jew who was born a non religious Jew has a much greater potential than you.  How? Since G-d knows that he is able to pass such a tremendous test of returning to G-d being born clueless to Judaism but you on the other hand might not able to pass the same test since G-d made it easy for you since you were born into a religious household.  If you were able to pass this test then perhaps G-d would not have made it easy for you.  Therefore, it is better for you to accept 10 insults then to say one insult to these people. 

3.  You must not expect fast results, rather you must try to be like water dripping on a rock.  Water dripping on a rock will not do anything in the short run.  But over many years, the water starts making an impression on the rock, then a hole, and finally it breaks the rock.  Therefore, do not try aggressive tactics.  This is the biggest mistake people make.  You must use extremely passive tactics of the most passive nature. 

4. 
a) The most successful tactic step by step is to simply make friends with the person and not say anything suggestive at first.  Simply by talking with a religious Jew regularly and doing nothing else, he will respect you and your inherent holyness and manner of behavior will rub off and make a positive impression on him or her, even if you never make any suggestion or confrontation.  Also the person will not feel in the least way threatened of you trying to change them and they will only form a closer bond with you and let you into his heart. I've seen this happen with my own eyes so don't laugh. 

b) After a while, the person will eventually and randomly open up and talk about something of religious nature, so this is the opportunity for you to point them into the right direction by simply asking them a question or two and letting them talk themselves or you may say something similar in a clever manner relating to yourself only and not directly at them (a very clever tactic explained later).  Remember, don't be aggressive as this will fail!  For example, if they say that they want to marry a Gentile,  but their parents don't like it, you say "I'm religious and I'll only marry a Jewish girl".  That's it.  Don't go any further. It may seem pointless, but remember rule 3 that by simply learning about the way a religious Jew acts, it will have a positive effect on them.  Also, when they say something about how they are upset about something religious like not having a Jewish Education, reply with sympathy like "I understand, it's very difficult not having gone to Yeshiva like I did". After you mastered this stage and the person is more comfortable you may give brief MILD advise and suggestions.  For example, ask him/her if they are doing anything about the upcoming holiday and ask them if they want to come over to your home for the holiday.  Another example is if the person says they want to become religious, tell them that you know that it is difficult for someone unobservant to all of the sudden become religious so they should just start with keeping the Sabbath.  Keep doing this and eventually you might bring them back.  If you are aggressive you will lose the person. 

The only time you may be aggressive is if someone is your close friend and was religious but is now going off the path, then you could try to scare him but it may still be dangerous and cause him to ignore you. 

Remember, never expect quick results.  Never expect you to make a non religious person religious as most likely you will only know them for a short time.  The most I've seen and been successful doing is when these people were heading on their way in the right direction.  I'll probably never know if any of them actually made it as I knew most for a very short time and tried my best.  Your mission may be successful in just one conversation where you simply talk to them about nothing but allow them to see how a religious Jew acts and you've made a positive impression on that person. 

MORE TO FOLLOW

« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 11:54:23 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline jdl4ever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2000
RESERVED
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline jdl4ever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2000
This is fine for those who are born religious, but what about the BT who wants to bring those around him close? I know that in my situation, the people I know are skeptical at best and hostile at worst when they are around me. This includes my parents. What's the best way for a BT to bring his friends and family close?

Maybe someone here who is also a BT can give you an answer.  I only write from what I experienced and I'm not a BT so I can't give a good answer.  If they are hostile then the best you can do in my opinion is simply rule number 3, let them see how you being a religious Jew acts and lives his life and perhaps this will rub off on them.  The real reason why they are hostile is because they are afraid of being swept in but this is a back door to get them by surprise. 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 12:26:31 AM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline kahaneloyalist

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1959
JDL, Rabbi Kahane zt'l generally aggresive tactics to return Jews to Torah, I think most people are not on the level where they can be aggressive and effective but at the same time some Jews will be turned off by passivity, and attracted to a strong message.
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline jdl4ever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2000
Actually in public he used aggressive tactics but privately he used non aggressive tactics as he was a very warm person.  The JDL and Kach had lots of not religious Jews.  In my experience, aggressive tactics in private turn people off and never work. 
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline kahaneloyalist

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1959
Perphaps your friend has accepted the Torah but hasnt yet begun observing the Mitzvot ??? then they could be considered a BT
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline Israeli Mouse

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
I have found many more reasons people have gone away then they were just born so. And the ones who were born so had someone at some point go away for some reason probably one if not both of the following two;

Firstly and most oftenly it is because of the actions of the religious Jews who unfortunately stand for Judaism though do not always follow it. For example i was once walking in the city - for those of you not from the NY/NJ aria that means Manhattan - and i saw these black hatter yeshivsh boys walking around and smoking, since i am not one to hold my tongue i said something and we went at it and frankly it was what they said and how they said it to be more apoling then there behavior. They excused it and named a Rav - who i do not remember who it was off hand - said it was fine after you did it the first time which was the only sin, and the one i was arguing with and telling off how it was such a chilul HASHEM we very big headed and acted so at least to his credit he openly admitted that he has a bad habit of having a big head and talking down to people and that it was wrong of him. If you see someone who stands for something you are supposed to believe in and they do something that you find morally wrong then of course you will be turned off by it.
Now tell me if you saw someone who stands for something smoke, getting high, getting drunk and beat their wives would you even think to want to be a part of what they stand for? Of course not.

Secondly and unfortunately just as oftenly the Jewish schools - here we call it all yeshiva but I've been told by other places call it by another name I've never heard before - do not teach well at all. If it wasn't for my father i would not have the love for Judaism which i do, and if it wasn't for his love for HASHEM he would not have had it himself since he is a bal teshuva who was turned off by yeshiva school that he put much effort to convince his parents to send him to and it was only his realization that though they stand for Judaism they are not it and just because they stood for something does not mean they followed it how they should.
But most people do not have that and i have personally seen so many go away and since they are in such a search for something many times they turn to drugs and alcohol. Yeshivas hardly teach anymore if they do at all, they install nothing in to most of the people who go in to them and leave them easily to be preyed on by atheists, agnostics and people of other religions who ether offer them love and acceptance - unlike our yeshivas and many people who give them dirty looks for going away or not being as strict as they are -  or offer them what seems to logical arguments if you do not know better and facts and history. Someone once said if you stand for nothing you fall for anything, and we do not give them something to stand for.
"Let us not suffer from a national amnesia that causes us to forget who and what we are."

-  Rav Kahane zt''l

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
JDL4ever I understand what you are saying, but you have to know that also saying the truth the ramifications of the sins is also very important. Saying it out of hate or trying to make a show and calling others inferior is definitly wronge, but showing the soverity of the sin and the possible consequences it can have is very important and needed to show how wronge that action is. If one wants to accept it, then good, if one doesnt its their free choice and we need to keep working on them. What would be mistaken to do is to appease the sin and making it look like a light thing.
  If you love someone you have to warn them and work for what is for their best interests (which is keeping Mitzvot).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
the question about a ball tishuva not being religious. That is completly 2 opposites. To reach the level of a real Baal Tishuva is a very great level (I hope I reach that level one day). A real Baal Tishuva and not the term that is said loosly these days is one who came from a non-religious bachground, made a 180 degree turn, is learning Torah (for a number of years) and keeping all the Mitzvot. According to Rav Mizrahi (I heard in a live lecture by him) he said that the leading Kabbalist of the generation said that their are really few people who have reached that level of a complete Baal Tishiva. (may all those who came from non-religious bachgrounds, merit to reach that level- including me).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
 :) ,my last post where I heard that was from this lecture http://www.kolyakov.org/rav_mizrachi_pinchas_gan_eden_baal_teshuva_7-8-07.html

Im smiling becuase I didnt know that they would put up that lecture today, right after I mentioned it here.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline jdl4ever

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2000
Re: Jdl4ever fail proof tips on how religious Jews can bring close those who are
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 05:43:00 PM »
Israeli Mouse, you did my work for me.  I was going to continue with how to convince those who are driven away by Jews acting inappropriately and making a Chillul Hashem. 

As for Tzvi, your words may seem logical on paper but in reality they do not work.  In my experience, these people only responded well to the subtle techniques I described above (Yes, I even talked to these Jews at lunch time while they were eating pork and non Kosher food without saying anything negative about what they were doing).  They will immediately run away from you and never talk to you again if you try to scare them into observance or curse them out for the sins they are currently doing.  Not only that but you will turn them away from being religious since they will set up more barriers in front of themselves when talking to religious Jews.  The only way the scaring tactic might work is if someone was religious at one point in his life and then fell off so since he already believes in G-d and in the Torah but got lazy he might get scared into his place; but this is still risky in my opinion.  I am only interested if you actually tried rebuking and scaring tactics on non religious Jews and they worked.   Have you actually tried these scaring techniques in person?  Well, when you do try them you'll see that they simply do not work. 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 05:46:21 PM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Israeli Mouse

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
Re: Jdl4ever fail proof tips on how religious Jews can bring close those who are
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2007, 11:52:20 PM »
Well what i do with my friends who are not religious - which is nearly everyone - is i sit and talk to them about everything and listen to what they have to say just as i would with anyone else, i am no missionary to get everyone to be religious though it would be nice if it happened lol. I find talking to people on a one to one basis and discussing life and since and anything that comes up and many times when i feel they are ready to hear it i tell them how Judaism backs me up on my beliefs or on theirs. I know you can never make anyone becomes religious, but you can talk to them about everything and anything and hope one day something you said might spark something at one point down the line even if we haven't spoken for years.

Please do not understand me and think this is the only reason i am friends with them and talk to them, it is not, they ARE my friends.
"Let us not suffer from a national amnesia that causes us to forget who and what we are."

-  Rav Kahane zt''l

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1728
Re: Jdl4ever fail proof tips on how religious Jews can bring close those who are
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2007, 07:38:28 PM »
Hi,
  I have a friend who is Jewish though not religious or even willing to admit he is Jewish. He is a real smart kid and I am close with him. I brought up religion to him once but I was aggressive and I dont think I accomplished anything. Is it too late for me to try this new strategy or should I move on?
Also what do you think about having non-religious read the Rav's books?
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline OdKahaneChai

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1794
Re: Jdl4ever fail proof tips on how religious Jews can bring close those who are
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2007, 10:32:58 PM »
This is fine for those who are born religious, but what about the BT who wants to bring those around him close? I know that in my situation, the people I know are skeptical at best and hostile at worst when they are around me. This includes my parents. What's the best way for a BT to bring his friends and family close?
I wish I could give you an answer but I'm in just about the same situation.  :-\

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Offline RationalThought110

  • Moderator
  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 4813
Re: Jdl4ever fail proof tips on how religious Jews can bring close those who are
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2007, 06:51:06 AM »
This is fine for those who are born religious, but what about the BT who wants to bring those around him close? I know that in my situation, the people I know are skeptical at best and hostile at worst when they are around me. This includes my parents. What's the best way for a BT to bring his friends and family close?

What is meant by BT?

Offline Israeli Mouse

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
Re: Jdl4ever fail proof tips on how religious Jews can bring close those who are
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2007, 02:07:21 PM »
Hi,
  I have a friend who is Jewish though not religious or even willing to admit he is Jewish. He is a real smart kid and I am close with him. I brought up religion to him once but I was aggressive and I dont think I accomplished anything. Is it too late for me to try this new strategy or should I move on?
Also what do you think about having non-religious read the Rav's books?

In most cases you most defiantly can, though if it were me i would apologise for have being so aggressive about it, and tell him that you only care about him that is why you got so worked up, but you do know it is his life and you are not trying to force anything on him, this is what you believe but its only in his hands to believe what ever he feels is right for him to believe" or something along those lines, i cant really say what to tell exactly since every person and every situation is different. in my experience just talking about it and getting someone fascinated or interested in it is best done by stay calm, understanding and never losing your temper.

If you mean Rav Kahane zt'''l it really depends on what type of person it is, i know a few people who became religious though finding out and reading about Rav Kahane zt''l, but people who are liberals would probably be somewhat turned off by them. It really depends on the person.


Quote
What is meant by BT?
Is short for Bali Teshuva.
"Let us not suffer from a national amnesia that causes us to forget who and what we are."

-  Rav Kahane zt''l

Offline kahaneloyalist

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1959
Hi,
  I have a friend who is Jewish though not religious or even willing to admit he is Jewish. He is a real smart kid and I am close with him. I brought up religion to him once but I was aggressive and I dont think I accomplished anything. Is it too late for me to try this new strategy or should I move on?
Also what do you think about having non-religious read the Rav's books?

Rabbi Kahane zt'l wrote in a way that was attractive to all people, if you have liberal Jewish friends dont give them Ohr Haarayon, give them "The Story of the Jewish Defense League" that is the sort of book which will have a positive effect on even liberal Jews.
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban