Author Topic: How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?  (Read 3018 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4859
How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?
« on: March 23, 2018, 04:04:11 AM »
For starters when they arrived they had no knowledge of Purim & Chanukah nor did they have talmud or any codes of law like Shulchan Aruch or Rambam nor did they have any knowledge whatsoever of the Hebrew language & prayed in a language called Ge'ez. & not lashon hakodesh.
Without a conversion how can they claim to be Jews?
Apparently Rav Ovadia Yosef,ZT"L ruled that they were however all the other rabbonim including Rav Moshe, Feinstein,ZT"L & the Lubavitcher Rebbe,ZT"L said that in order to be considered Jews & be counted among Klal Yisroel they needed to do giyur (conversion).
Rav Ovadia apparently is a das yachid in this matter as all the major gedolim both Ashkenazi & Sephardi/Mizrachi hold they need to convert.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2018, 08:32:02 AM »



“There never was such a thing as Black Jews. Whoever says the Falashas are Jews doesn't know what he's talking about! The only ones keen to accept them as Jews are the irreligious. They are not our brother-Jews!" (R Avigdor Miller 1985).

The great keenness of some Sephardic religious authorities to allow them in is thus doubly perplexing.

A great deal of ignorance, wishful thinking and emotion clouds the subject.

The Falashas believed themselves to be descended from Jewish nobles of Jerusalem who escorted the Queen of Sheba home from her visit to Shlomoh. This belief is challenged by scientific theory which holds them to be of pure Ethiopian stock, part of the Agaw group of tribes of Cushitic origin, indistinguishable physically and psychologically from their fellow Ethiopians. Most of the great Ethiopicists of the last century, especially Conti Rossini of Rome, Cerulli of Milan, Polotsky of Jerusalem, Leslau of California, Rodison of Paris, Ullendorff of London, and Rabbi Dr Maurice Gaguine of Manchester, rejected the concept of an authentic Jewish source for the Falashas as being historically unwarranted.

Rabbi Gaguine, whose thesis on Ethiopic studies has been entered by universities as the definitive work on the subject, noted ("The Falashas: Fact and Fiction", 1985) that the Falashas: 1) called their place of worship masgid - "mosque" in Arabic; 2)  had no knowledge of  Hebrew or Aramaic, reciting all their prayers in Ge'ez; 3) used only the Ethiopic Bible, which includes Apocryphal books excluded from our Tenach, such as Tobit, Judith and the Wisdom of Ben Sirah; they did not possess the Sefer Torah in scroll form, but read from a book; 4) did not use Tefillin, Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos; 5) observed the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and kept the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own; 6) performed animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple; 7) practised a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes 8 ) made no ritual distinction between meat and milk; 9) circumcised boys, as do all Ethiopians, but omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, as mandated by the Din. They subjected girls to excision, a form of clitoridectomy that is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes. Both the operations on boys and girls were performed by women; 10) practised monasticism, a movement totally alien to Judaism, as an important part of their theology which was a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements; they had no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation; 11) allowed the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent;  12) Chalitzah was unknown to them; ironically, those who wish to recognise the Falashas as Jews  would by definition be classing many of them as mamzerim, since the written Get was also unknown to them and matrimonial and genealogical records non-existent. It is impossible to find out which of them is a real Cohen or how many illicit marriages have been contracted among them.

There is evidence that Jewish merchants from Arabia spread a form of Judaic culture throughout Ethiopia during the pre-Christian Aksumite era. The available historical, linguistic, cultural and semantic evidence suggests that the Falashas are probably descended from those pockets of resistance that clung to this Judaic culture against the fierce Christian penetration of Ethiopia. Claiming filiation from Jews is a fairly common phenomenon whereby colonised minorities tend to identify their plight with that of Ancient Israel e.g. the African-American "Black Hebrews" of Dimona, who claim to be the real Jews, with Ashkenazim and Sefardim as the impostors!

Some claim that the Falashas are connected to the Tribe of Dan. Yet The Talmud rules that because they lost contact for so long with the spiritual leadership of the Tribe of Judah, all the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel are Halachically goyim to all intents and purposes (Yevamos 17), but that in Messianic times they will return and accept again the Torah of Moshe.

The general consensus of almost all Halachic authorities was that there is such room for doubt as to the Falashas' Jewishness, that they require a formal conversion procedure. This until the Ethiopian immigrants were incited almost to riot at Ben Gurion airport in 1985 by anti-religious elements to refuse to undergo any conversion, not even simple ritual immersion in a mikveh.  Some Rabbinic authorities, under political pressure, backtracked on their ruling, now holding that they are full Jews not requiring any conversion!

The Lubavitcher Rebbe held that the Falashas are not Jews and that their coming to Israel en masse would be a big mistake. He advocated that any conversion be performed on an individual basis outside the Land of Israel, not out of "racism" as some claim, but as a matter of upholding Torah Law. Whilst acknowledging their courage in wanting to be identified as Jews, the Falasha lineage is so suspect, that for them to be accepted by all Jews as a bona fide part of the Am Yisroel, Halachic conversion is a sine qua non. The Falash Mura even more so

We await with keen anticipation the time when the Moshiach will reveal from which of the Twelve Tribes each Jew truly hails (Rambam, Hilchos M’lochim12:3), and the Ingathering of the Exiles when "The L-rd will shall set His Hand a second time to recover the remnant of His people that shall be left, from Ashur and from Mitzrayim, from Patros and from Cush and from Elam and Shinar and from Chamas and the isles of the sea" (Yeshaya 11:11)
   

Offline ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4859
Re: How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2018, 08:58:48 AM »



“There never was such a thing as Black Jews. Whoever says the Falashas are Jews doesn't know what he's talking about! The only ones keen to accept them as Jews are the irreligious. They are not our brother-Jews!" (R Avigdor Miller 1985).

The great keenness of some Sephardic religious authorities to allow them in is thus doubly perplexing.

A great deal of ignorance, wishful thinking and emotion clouds the subject.

The Falashas believed themselves to be descended from Jewish nobles of Jerusalem who escorted the Queen of Sheba home from her visit to Shlomoh. This belief is challenged by scientific theory which holds them to be of pure Ethiopian stock, part of the Agaw group of tribes of Cushitic origin, indistinguishable physically and psychologically from their fellow Ethiopians. Most of the great Ethiopicists of the last century, especially Conti Rossini of Rome, Cerulli of Milan, Polotsky of Jerusalem, Leslau of California, Rodison of Paris, Ullendorff of London, and Rabbi Dr Maurice Gaguine of Manchester, rejected the concept of an authentic Jewish source for the Falashas as being historically unwarranted.

Rabbi Gaguine, whose thesis on Ethiopic studies has been entered by universities as the definitive work on the subject, noted ("The Falashas: Fact and Fiction", 1985) that the Falashas: 1) called their place of worship masgid - "mosque" in Arabic; 2)  had no knowledge of  Hebrew or Aramaic, reciting all their prayers in Ge'ez; 3) used only the Ethiopic Bible, which includes Apocryphal books excluded from our Tenach, such as Tobit, Judith and the Wisdom of Ben Sirah; they did not possess the Sefer Torah in scroll form, but read from a book; 4) did not use Tefillin, Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos; 5) observed the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and kept the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own; 6) performed animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple; 7) practised a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes 8 ) made no ritual distinction between meat and milk; 9) circumcised boys, as do all Ethiopians, but omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, as mandated by the Din. They subjected girls to excision, a form of clitoridectomy that is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes. Both the operations on boys and girls were performed by women; 10) practised monasticism, a movement totally alien to Judaism, as an important part of their theology which was a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements; they had no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation; 11) allowed the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent;  12) Chalitzah was unknown to them; ironically, those who wish to recognise the Falashas as Jews  would by definition be classing many of them as mamzerim, since the written Get was also unknown to them and matrimonial and genealogical records non-existent. It is impossible to find out which of them is a real Cohen or how many illicit marriages have been contracted among them.

There is evidence that Jewish merchants from Arabia spread a form of Judaic culture throughout Ethiopia during the pre-Christian Aksumite era. The available historical, linguistic, cultural and semantic evidence suggests that the Falashas are probably descended from those pockets of resistance that clung to this Judaic culture against the fierce Christian penetration of Ethiopia. Claiming filiation from Jews is a fairly common phenomenon whereby colonised minorities tend to identify their plight with that of Ancient Israel e.g. the African-American "Black Hebrews" of Dimona, who claim to be the real Jews, with Ashkenazim and Sefardim as the impostors!

Some claim that the Falashas are connected to the Tribe of Dan. Yet The Talmud rules that because they lost contact for so long with the spiritual leadership of the Tribe of Judah, all the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel are Halachically goyim to all intents and purposes (Yevamos 17), but that in Messianic times they will return and accept again the Torah of Moshe.

The general consensus of almost all Halachic authorities was that there is such room for doubt as to the Falashas' Jewishness, that they require a formal conversion procedure. This until the Ethiopian immigrants were incited almost to riot at Ben Gurion airport in 1985 by anti-religious elements to refuse to undergo any conversion, not even simple ritual immersion in a mikveh.  Some Rabbinic authorities, under political pressure, backtracked on their ruling, now holding that they are full Jews not requiring any conversion!

The Lubavitcher Rebbe held that the Falashas are not Jews and that their coming to Israel en masse would be a big mistake. He advocated that any conversion be performed on an individual basis outside the Land of Israel, not out of "racism" as some claim, but as a matter of upholding Torah Law. Whilst acknowledging their courage in wanting to be identified as Jews, the Falasha lineage is so suspect, that for them to be accepted by all Jews as a bona fide part of the Am Yisroel, Halachic conversion is a sine qua non. The Falash Mura even more so

We await with keen anticipation the time when the Moshiach will reveal from which of the Twelve Tribes each Jew truly hails (Rambam, Hilchos M’lochim12:3), and the Ingathering of the Exiles when "The L-rd will shall set His Hand a second time to recover the remnant of His people that shall be left, from Ashur and from Mitzrayim, from Patros and from Cush and from Elam and Shinar and from Chamas and the isles of the sea" (Yeshaya 11:11)
So basically you are agreeing with me?
I have been saying this for decades that their lineage is bogus.
How come no record of this Menelik who they claim is Shlomo HaMelech's son in any Jewish writings?
Because Menelik is a myth like Hercules!!!!
IMHO,They are wannabes & not Jews unless they do a halalcic conversion.
They are no more Jewish than the 80 % of the Russian smegmezoids who came to Israel  that are claiming to be Jews but have shiksa mothers or have a vague claim of some distant male relative that may have been a Jew..

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10664
Re: How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2018, 03:23:58 PM »
Most of them are better at being jewish then I am.

Offline angryChineseKahanist

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 10498
  • ☭=卐=☮
Re: How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2018, 06:32:36 PM »
They're dark Caucasians.
Just like Indians are dark Caucasians.
Smelly dark Caucasians, but Caucasians.
They claim to be Jews because a famous Jewish queen landed there and spread her DNA.
Not even traceable. They're Jewish like I'm Jewish.
I can claim that two thousand years ago some Jewish family came to our neighborhood and shared their DNA with the locals.  2000 years later, I have 1% Jewish DNA. Now I can claim to be a Jew and move to Israel.

There's no way to tell. How can they even make such claims.
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10664
Re: How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2018, 06:41:38 PM »
Actually the Amaharies (the dominant christian ethnic group of Ethiopia) claim they are the real Israel and their royalty are supposedly descendants of King Solomon and the queen of Sheba.

 
They're dark Caucasians.
Just like Indians are dark Caucasians.
Smelly dark Caucasians, but Caucasians.
They claim to be Jews because a famous Jewish queen landed there and spread her DNA.
Not even traceable. They're Jewish like I'm Jewish.
I can claim that two thousand years ago some Jewish family came to our neighborhood and shared their DNA with the locals.  2000 years later, I have 1% Jewish DNA. Now I can claim to be a Jew and move to Israel.

There's no way to tell. How can they even make such claims.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5296
Re: How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2018, 11:07:22 PM »
Actually the Amaharies (the dominant christian ethnic group of Ethiopia) claim they are the real Israel and their royalty are supposedly descendants of King Solomon and the queen of Sheba.


If they are Jewish, they are from Dan. King Solomon never married the Queen of Sheba. Sheba might actually be in Arabia, across the Red Sea from Ethiopia. She wasn't Jewish so how could her kids be Jewish? There are also commentaries that question whether Malkat Sheva was actually a female Queen or a male King. Either way, King Solomon did not have kids with the monarch of Sheva.

Ovadiah Yosef ruled Ethiopians are from Dan. They claim they are from the Queen of Sheba but so does the entire Ethiopian Royal Family so what is the difference between the Ethiopian Jewish community and the Ethiopian goyim? How can a whole country be lost Jews? It seems like the "we be da original Hebros" stuff to me. If Ethiopia wasn't its own nation, why would the Bible list Kush as one of the 70 Gentile Nations of the World?



Offline ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4859
Re: How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2018, 12:17:06 AM »


If they are Jewish, they are from Dan. King Solomon never married the Queen of Sheba. Sheba might actually be in Arabia, across the Red Sea from Ethiopia. She wasn't Jewish so how could her kids be Jewish? There are also commentaries that question whether Malkat Sheva was actually a female Queen or a male King. Either way, King Solomon did not have kids with the monarch of Sheva.

Ovadiah Yosef ruled Ethiopians are from Dan. They claim they are from the Queen of Sheba but so does the entire Ethiopian Royal Family so what is the difference between the Ethiopian Jewish community and the Ethiopian goyim? How can a whole country be lost Jews? It seems like the "we be da original Hebros" stuff to me. If Ethiopia wasn't its own nation, why would the Bible list Kush as one of the 70 Gentile Nations of the World?
Rav Moshe Feinstein & the Lubavitcher Rebbe as well as virtually every other  gadol disagreed with Rav Ovadiah & said that they needed to convert in order to be considered Jews.

Offline ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4859
Re: How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2018, 02:44:02 AM »
Why is it that no other gadol agreed with Rav Ovadia that the Ethiopians are Jews?
He is a das yachid a lone opinion.
I am not denigrating HaRav Ovadia but am curious why no other major rabbonim agreed with him?

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10664
Re: How can the Ethiopians really be considered Jews?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2018, 11:41:33 AM »
The Amharis indeed believe that they are the true Israel, they even have multiple monasteries each claims to posses the real ark of the covenant. But the Ethiopian Jews most likely have stronger connection to Judaism than just this story. They are probably descendants of converts and some Jews that somehow made it to Ethiopia. While the contact with them was not continuous, through the centuries there was some contact and apparently even some effort from Jewish communities in Europe to protect them from persecutions and forced conversions.
If they are Jewish, they are from Dan. King Solomon never married the Queen of Sheba. Sheba might actually be in Arabia, across the Red Sea from Ethiopia. She wasn't Jewish so how could her kids be Jewish? There are also commentaries that question whether Malkat Sheva was actually a female Queen or a male King. Either way, King Solomon did not have kids with the monarch of Sheva.

Ovadiah Yosef ruled Ethiopians are from Dan. They claim they are from the Queen of Sheba but so does the entire Ethiopian Royal Family so what is the difference between the Ethiopian Jewish community and the Ethiopian goyim? How can a whole country be lost Jews? It seems like the "we be da original Hebros" stuff to me. If Ethiopia wasn't its own nation, why would the Bible list Kush as one of the 70 Gentile Nations of the World?