Idolators can’t study Torah, but Noahides can???

[Hrvatski Noahid]

https://hesedyahu.wordpress.com/2019/08/21/idolators-cant-study-torah-but-noahides-can/

Still thinking about that video from Rod Bryant on the YouTube channel, “NetivOnline” … Wait. I’m getting a sense of deja vu. LOL!

But I still want to write about the issues I have with his teaching, and there are quite a few issues I have with his teaching.

Since I simply love to share teachings I disagree with, I’ll just share the source of this teaching below, so you know where to find it.

So let me quote the man to give you an idea of where he stands. It’s very early in the video, around the one-minute thirty second mark.

“When we hear the term, that a non-Jew is to, cannot study Torah, how many’s heard that, right? You’ve heard it, non-Jews can’t study Torah. Let’s clarify this first misconception. When that is said, it is speaking of a Gentile who is still committing avodah zarah, idol, idol worship, or believes in another deity, or they pray to, which is called “shituf,” pray to another deity in place of the creator of the universe. A person who does that is not supposed to study Torah.

Well, the next question that has to be asked, “Well, if that person isn’t supposed to study Torah, how in the world does he ever know what’s right and what’s wrong, how would he know what’s shituf? Wuh, how does he know what’s idol worship if he doesn’t study Torah? Well, the answer would be, and the proper answer to this misconception, is that a person who wants to enquire, acquire knowledge, there is Chabad, there are videos all over the internet, there are local rabbis here in Houston that teach and allow non-Jewish people to attend. That’s how you learn. You learn from a proper source. You learn from an orthodox source, if you wanna know. And in developing those concepts, at some point when you separate yourself from idol worship or your other religion, you walk away and you disconnect from your shituf, then there are laws you can begin to live by, the Noahide laws, which in general I would say most people who are still in other religions are following most of the Noahidic laws, Noahide laws. But officially, one says “I’ve rejected all that”, so you’re following the sheva mitzvot, the seven mitzvahs …

So that’s what Bryant says over the course of two minutes.

Now, my first instinct, my instinct every single time I hear this, even in the course of transcribing his words, is to react verbally. I don’t know why I get that feeling every time. It doesn’t die down even after the fifth time of hearing it.

Don’t know.

But let me deal with this in an attempted studious manner rather than the more abrupt reception part of me wants to give it.

So, to summarise his stance in my words, idolators can’t study Torah and also, by what he says later, can’t live by the seven laws for humanity. Once an idolator leaves idol worship, only then can he live by the seven laws. Take note of his focus on idol worship and what he inaccurately describes as “shituf.” “how would he know what’s shituf?” Odd focus.

Anyway, again, the idol worshipper, in Bryant’s eyes, cannot study Torah, not even the seven laws, until he leaves idolatry and “shituf.” He can only watch videos or talk to orthodox Jews/rabbis. He can’t study it.

I’ll just add – and you may know my small irritation with this – Bryant seems to have a weakened grasp on the English language. He can’t seem to stay speaking English, seeming to instinctually switch to Hebrew. “avodah zara.” “shituf.” “sheva mitzvot,” which he amazingly “translates” into “seven mitzvahs,” as if “mitzvah” is an English word. He demonstrates more of a poor grasp of English later on when he imposes the notion of “idol worshipper” onto the English word “Gentile,” which has a main dictionary definition of “non-Jew”, or “a person who is not a Jew.”

Anyway …

Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, folio 59a. I’m going to quote the Soncino edition/translation of it which has less commentary, because this reveals something starkly wrong with Bryant’s position. Later, I’ll come to Maimonides words on the subject which again highlights Bryant’s error.

So, folio 59a. Whenever the Talmud uses the term translated as “idol worshipper,” I’ll put that in the text.

R. Johanan said: A heathen [idol worshipper] who studies the Torah deserves death, for it is written, Moses commanded us a law for an inheritance; it is our inheritance, not theirs. Then why is this not included in the Noachian laws? — On the reading morasha [an inheritance] he steals it; on the reading me’orasah [betrothed], he is guilty as one who violates a betrothed maiden, who is stoned. An objection is raised: R. Meir used to say. Whence do we know that even a heathen [idol worshipper] who studies the Torah is as a High Priest? From the verse, [Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments:] which, if man do, he shall live in them. Priests, Levites, and Israelites are not mentioned, but men: hence thou mayest learn that even a heathen [idol worshipper] who studies the Torah is as a High Priest! — That refers to their own seven laws.

I’m going to momentarily set aside the way many Jews understand the term “idol worshipper.” For now, I gonna act like a confused sola-scriptura christian or an arrogant atheist/anti-theist or Jew-hater looking for Talmudic texts to accuse the Jews by quoting their books, and try to read the Talmudic text and treat it like any book and take each word and term just as it appears. Reading it like this, do you already see the contradiction between what the Talmud says and what Bryant says?

So Bryant said an idol worshipper can’t study Torah or even the seven laws, that he can only hear stuff from rabbis or watch videos. Bryant claims that only after rejecting idolatry (and “shituf”) can the Gentile study or live by the seven laws. The Talmud says, almost in preemptive response, “… even a idol worshipper who studies the Torah is as a High Priest, that refers to their own seven laws.”

Again, remember, this is only if the term “idol worshipper” is understood how it appears to be written.

Let me get this “idol worshipper” set up finished so I can move on to what the teachings may actually mean.

So Maimonides, there’s a place in his work, the Mishneh Torah, which certain people use to emphasise this “idolator” aspect, but it’ll soon be seen that if you follow their train of thought, it too contradicts Bryant’s message.

So people use Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, chapter 10, law 9 – yes, I’m back there … again – to paint the picture that idolators are forbidden from keeping sabbaths, studying Torah and making up new religions and divine laws, whereas “noahides,” “righteous non-Jews,” apparently can do all these things. Damn, just reading that people actually believe this nonsense is perplexing. Anyway, just look at this law with me to see if it helps Bryant’s case.

A gentile [idol worshipper] who studies the Torah is obligated to die. They should only be involved in the study of their seven mitzvot.

Similarly, a gentile [idol worshipper] who rests, even on a weekday, observing that day as a Sabbath, is obligated to die. Needless to say, he is obligated for that punishment if he creates a festival for himself.

The general principle governing these matters is: They are not to be allowed to originate a new religion or create mitzvot for themselves based on their own decisions. They may either become righteous converts and accept all the mitzvot or retain their statutes without adding or detracting from them.

Again, I’ve highlighted the parts where the certain versions of the Hebrew uses that “idolator” term. Again, I’ll momentarily treat the text as a person who thinks you can read that simply, word-for-word, without checking if there is a different understanding.

Again, do you see the contradiction between what Maimonides teaches and what Bryant teaches, even in the very first lines of the law??? Here’s Bryant’s position, just to be clear. Bryant said an idol worshipper can’t study Torah or even the seven laws, that he can only hear stuff from rabbis or watch videos. Bryant claims that only after rejecting idolatry (and “shituf”) can the Gentile study or live by the seven laws. But Maimonides teaches, almost in preemptive response, that an idol worshipper can only study the seven laws, not “the Torah.” So even Maimonides rejects Bryant’s idea that an idolator cannot study the seven laws.

Staying in the “literal idolator” mode, the question can be asked: what then is the Torah that the idol worshipper shouldn’t study, a “torah” distinct from the seven laws? It was hinted at in the Talmud quote I gave up above, but, so that I can’t be accused of making stuff up (yes, I have to keep dealing with that accusation), I’ll quote what I believe to be a reputable resource for Torah-cognizant Jews and Gentiles: Torah.org.

What, then, is the difference between the Seven Noachide Laws as relevant to “gentiles” and the 613 Commandments that are reserved for the “Jewish nation”? Why two sets of rules? And why did Israel have to make the choice to accept the 613 Commandments of the Torah whilst the Seven Noachide Laws were divinely imposed upon humanity without their prior agreement?

Rabbi Yitzchok Hutner (Pachad Yitzchok, Chanukah 9) brilliantly distinguish the two. The precepts within each category are intent upon achieving a different set of results.

The 613 Commandments are “Torah”; the Seven Noachide Laws are not. (The Seven Noachide Laws, Torah.org – https://torah.org/torah-portion/livinglaw-5769-noach/)

So the Torah that “idolators” shouldn’t study is Jewish law, the 613 commandments for the Jews, for Israel. What “idolators” can study is the seven laws.

So just conclude this pretense that the term “idolator” in ancient Jewish literature means only a literal and active worshipper of idols, if that pretense were true, Bryant’s stance would be utterly wrong. Idolators aren’t limited to videos and “Chabad rabbis” to learn of the seven laws. They are free to study the seven laws with apparently no limitations.

Before I continue, let me share my belief, my conclusion, that such an idea that idol worshippers are forbidden even from studying the seven laws is “counterproductive,” a much nicer word than the word I more readily had in mind, “stupid.” Rabbis and Torah-observant Jews are by far not a worldwide phenomenon, and historically the situation was much worse. To learn from a Jew may not be within the reach of a Gentile. To proscribe, to prohibit, Gentile idolators from studying their own seven laws would stop a lot of well-meaning idolators (yes, there is such thing) from becoming more cognizant of their divine obligations.

So now I’ll shed the pretense. As I’ve shown in previous articles, the term “idolator” in ancient Jewish works when referring to Gentiles did not automatically mean “literal idol-worshipper.” I’ve said it in a good few previous articles, like a recent one about how sabbath has nothing to do with a non-Jew. To put it very simply, there are many ways to know that in contexts that discuss the seven laws, the Hebrew term translated “idolator” is just a general term for Gentiles, non-Jews, on a whole, not just literal idolators. Even in the texts and translations I’ve used in this article, there are overt clues that such is the case. Again, to give one brief example, notice how the translation, made by Jews, of Maimonides’ Mishneh Torah said the following:

A gentile [idol worshipper] who studies the Torah …

It translates the term for idol worshipper not as “idolator” which is an easy, more direct, and more “literal” translation, but rather by a word that has a primary meaning of “a person who is not a Jew,” namely “gentile.”

So based on the Talmud and Maimonides, any Gentile is free to learn about and study the seven laws. They don’t have to reject idolatry first, as if idolatry is more important than any of the other divine laws for Gentiles. There is no limitation on which Gentile can learn about his divine obligations. The only thing a Gentile should not learn about are those Jewish laws that don’t find their counterparts in the seven laws or in rationality, like sabbaths and holy days or ceremonies.

Now, after all that, I may get the rebuttal:

David, you’re being harsh with Rod. I think you got him all wrong. What he said was mainly right.

1) Idolatrous Gentiles are forbidden from studying Torah, but righteous Gentiles are allowed.

2) Once an idolatrous Gentile rejects idolatry and shituf, then he can live by, not study, the seven laws. Rod said “live by” and not “study” or “learn.”

Maybe we understood two different things from Bryant’s teaching. Maybe. But let me tackle that rebuttal.

So the first point makes a distinction between idolatrous Gentiles and righteous Gentiles. Can I point out how arbitrary such a distinction is? There are seven – seven – laws for humanity, not one. Idolatry is not some “first and foundational law” with the other laws being secondary. Although Maimonides puts it first in his listing, the Talmud puts idolatry third and Justice first, if ordering matters.

So to highlight how arbitrary this distinction is, a Gentile who has never worshipped an idol or who has rejected idol worship can still be a thief or a murderer or be having sex with another man’s wife. That is not a “righteous non-Jew.” Idolatry is not the sole or main line of demarcation.

Also, remember the proper understanding of the term “idolator” how it is used in the seven laws sections of the Talmud or Maimonides, that it actually means any non-Jew, any Gentile. They make no distinction between the Gentile idolator and the Gentile righteous man. The Jews’ affairs are theirs, not to be explored by any non-Jew. So the Talmud and Maimonides was forbidding Gentiles on a whole from studying “Torah.” And by “Torah,” both the Talmud and Maimonides are referring the Jewish law, the 613, the laws for Jews that have no counterparts in the seven laws or rationality.

But Rod was dealing with what Jews say, not what their tradition teaches.

So there’s a difference? How disappointing. Look, I’m comparing his words with the tradition I know. If the Jews around him are saying the same thing, then I guess I’m testing their words to tradition too.

With regards to the second point, firstly, don’t lose your ability to speak and understand your native language. “shituf” can be translated as “partnership” as the book “Path of the Righteous Gentile,” written by rabbis Clorfene and Rogalsky does, or “belief in an intermediary” as the Divine Code does, or “association” or “associationism” as Michael Dallen does. It’s not a super-technical term that can only be rendered through transliteration of the Hebrew rather than translation.

And I’ll bring up again the arbitrary raising of idolatry above the other six divine laws. It’s not simply when a person rejects idolatry that he begins to live by the seven laws. It’s when he avoids any of the forbidden acts.

If the focus of the rebuttal is that Bryant was dealing with living by the seven laws but I got stuck on studying the seven laws, remember the misconception he was trying to dispel: the Gentiles studying Torah. Remember how, in his attempt at clarification, he limits an idolator’s learning of even idolatry and “belief in an intermediary”, one of the seven laws, to what the idolator can glean from the internet, from videos and whatever local rabbi he can get his hands on, if there are any. Although he talks about living by the seven after idolatry and “association” are rejected, he’s already set the foundation that idolators can’t learn about either the Torah or the seven laws through study. He’s already created the false premise that

When that is said, it is speaking of a Gentile who is still committing avodah zarah, idol, idol worship, or believes in another deity, or [partnership] …

I’ve shown that this is wrong, that when it is said that Gentiles cannot study Torah, it is not limited to idolatrous Gentiles, but rather any Gentile who, instead of focusing on Gentile divine obligations, tries to go in-depth into Jewish obbligations.

His faulty premise leads to an erroneous message.

That’s it.

Again, I do enjoy the moments I get to ponder on God’s law and write about it. Fantastic.