Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea

Chag Shmini Atzeret and Simchat Torah Sameach and Shabbat Shalom!

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OdKahaneChai:

--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on October 07, 2007, 11:29:09 AM ---Od Kahane Chai was the Kahane Chai election jingle. I have it on my computer. I downloaded it from Kahane.org a long time ago.

--- End quote ---
For anyone who wants it:
http://kahane.org/Od%20Kahane%20Chai.mp3

q_q_:

--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on October 02, 2007, 03:23:23 PM ---BS"D

20 Tishrei, 5768.

Chag Sameach,

The Staff of The JTF Forum wishes our Jewish members a Chag Shmini Atzeret and Simchat Torah Sameach, a Happy Shmini Atzeret and Simchat Torah Holiday. After a week of celebrations for the whole World and with offerings for The Righteous Gentiles as well, Shmini Atzeret is the closing eighth day where Jews alone bring offerings. In Israel, this day is combined Simchat Torah, The Rejoicing of The Torah. In The Diaspora, an extra ninth day of the holiday is added for Simchat Torah.

In observance of the holidays and the upcoming Sabbath, the forum will be closed from Wednesday Evening until Saturday Night. During the holiday and Sabbath, The Jewish People are prohibited from doing any type of work, including using this forum.

Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim,
Chief Administrator.



--- End quote ---

I do not think that simchat torah is the 9th day of a holiday. It is its own holiday, and 1 day.
In israel succot is 7 days, in the diaspora succot is 8 days.
simchat torah is not of the succot holiday. Infact, neither is shmini atzeret.

a kid in primary school once said at top speed!
1,2, rosh hashana
3 tzom gedalya
10 yom kippur
15,16 succot yomtov
17-21 succot chol hamoed
22 shmini atzeret
23 simchat torah
30 rosh chodesh

-
succot is often taught as being
diaspora- 2 days yomtov, 5 days chol hamoed
israel - 1 day yomtov, 6 days chol hamoed.
so 7 days.
But actually in the diaspora there is another day chol hamoed. But we do not think of it like that since that day is shmini atzeret, which is a yom tov - melacha is forbidden.  (on chol hamoed, there is no prohibition of melacha).

On the 22nd tishri, we follow the custom of our ancestors of when they had the unknown regarding whether the previous month was 29 or 30 days. Thus, we count as if there was 29. Then there is an unknown on the 22nd, whether it is the 21st or the 22nd.  (because suppose you are on the date you call the 22nd. if the previous month was actually 30 days, then tomorrow is the 22nd, so today is the 21st).  If 21st we`d do succot chol hamoed. If 22nd we`d do Shmini atzeret.
We don`t want to do a mitzva of one festival blatantly or it will make the day that festival and detract from the other one. Succot has the mitzva of sitting in the succa. Everybody in the diaspora, sits in the succa on shminii atzeret, because of the unknown , that it might be succot, some say a blessing , some do not. But in Israel nobody sits in the succa on shmini atzeret.

note- every festival can be called a yom tov. But in the context of yom tov and chol hamoed, the days of a festival where melacha is forbidden is yom tov, and the other days - days of intermediate holyness, are chol hamoed.  Siddurim refer to yom tov and chol hamoed, when they point to what pages to go to.


 

 

q_q_:

--- Quote ---Sukkot is 7 days everywhere. The eighth day is a holiday of its own called Shmini Atzeret. Outside of Israel, Shmini Atzeret is two days with the second day being Simchat Torah. Simchat Torah is only a Rabbinic innovation and we still refer to Simchat Torah in our prayers as Shmini Atzeret and the Musaf Torah reading (Maftir) and Musaf Amidah is the same.

--- End quote ---

I have a bad memory of what happens on each, but I don`t think that disagrees with what I said.



--- Quote ---In Israel, people usually call the 8th day Simchat Torah when it is really Shmini Atzeret/Simchat Torah. Only in The Galut are the two days separated because of the second day of Yom Tov.

--- End quote ---

I don`t know why simchat torah is on a different day in galut. I never looked into that, I just accept it.


--- Quote ---So would you call The Seventh Day of Passover Chol HaMoed?

--- End quote ---

no, it is yom tov, not chol hamoed.


--- Quote ---No one in the whole World calls Shmini Atzeret Chol HaMoed.

--- End quote ---

added- {yep. There is no shmini atzeret chol hamoed. Shmini atzeret is only Yom Tov. I wouldn`t say it is both shmini atzeret yom tov, and succot chol hamoed - you cannot have 2 festivals on the same day.  But the 22nd Tishri, is kept as shmini atzeret, and as succot chol hamoed - because of the unknown.  So we take the obligations of each.  We keep it as a yom tov , and we keep the obligation of succot (which applies to succot chol hamoed and succot yom tov) - to sit in the succa. }

Correct, shmini atzeret is a yom yov. not a chol hamoed.
BUT, in the diaspora, succot is an extra day. The last day of succot is succot chol hamoed and is called hoshana rabba.  Hoshana Rabba is a custom and is not extended an extra day. The last day of succot is extended an extra day in the diaspora.
A mitzva of succot is sitting in the succa. Another is waving the lulav and etrog. We don`t do the lulav and etrog because it would detract from shmini atzeret. But some do sit in the succa, and when they do, they do not make the bracha for sitting in the succa, because that would detract from shmini atzeret.


--- Quote ---My family had kiddush in the sukkat in Israel on Simchat Torah.

--- End quote ---

I am not good at remembering what happens on these festivals. But that seems interesting. Simchat torah and shmini atzeret are the same day in israel.  So they sit on shmini atzeret, even though it is not succot.  Sitting in the succa is a mitzva of succot. I didn`t think anybody sat in the succa on shmini atzeret in israel.


--- Quote ---So would you call The Seventh Day of Passover Chol HaMoed?

--- End quote ---
no

q_q_:

--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on November 04, 2007, 05:52:47 PM ---If you call Shmini Atzeret Sukkot, you would have to say the same thing about The 7th Day of Passover. In Talmudic times, the Jews of Babylonia might have not known if the 7th day was really the 6th day so that is why the added an 8th day because the 8th day could have been the 7th day.



--- End quote ---

I am saying shmini atzeret is not sukkot.

And you are right about what you say of the 7th day.

in the diaspora, we follow the customs of our ancestors who were in the diaspora, and so we  count as if the previouis month was 29 days but keep an extra day incase the previous month was 30 days. the day we number as 22nd Tishri could be the 21st. So there is an unknown whether it is shmini atzeret or the last day of sukkot.  It is not both. We keep it as both, but not keeping a mitzva of one to an extent that it will detract from the other. Only succot has mitzvot. SA does not. (there are 613 mitzvot from G-d and 7 rabbinical mitzvot)

The fact that the jews of babylonia may not have known whether  the day they counted as 7th day might`ve been the 6th day , is not a problem. Because By keeping it as if it is the 7th day, they keep the mitzvot of the 6th day. Like eating matza. and they do not break any prohibitions on the 6th day, like eating bread.

We add an 8th day(or a 2nd 7th day rather), because if that day is the 7th day, we better know it is. Since there are mitzvot associated with like, we cannot eat bread.
 
 





 

q_q_:
I have spoken to many rabbis, some have wrongly said that shmini atzeret is succot. Or they have been unwilling to say outright, that shmini atzeret is not succot.

I prove it by the fact that , as one rabbi once told me,  In israel nobody sits in the succa on SA. In the diaspora, some do some don`t (but none say a blessing over sitting).

Here is a conversation I had with a logical rabbi on askmoses.

notice that although he says succot is 7 days in the diaspora, he means in the same sense that pesach is 7 days in the diaspora! For practical purposes, people tend to think about it as pesach being 8, but succot being 7.

 bobp : do we wave the lulav and etrog on shmini atzeret?
R : No.
bobp : ok.. also, how many days is succot in the diaspora?
R : 7
bobp : I heard that in israel nobody sits in the succa on shmini atzeret. Whereas in the diaspora, it is different, is this right?
bobp : like in the diaspora, we all sit, some say a bracha, some do not.
bobp : or maybe.. in hte diaspora, some sit and some do not sit. I am not sure
R : Right about israel. Partly right about Diaspora. Some do, some son't. But NOBODY anywhere makes the blessing for sitting in a sukkah on Shemini Azeret.
bobp : why, in the diaspora, is it that some do some don`t. But in Israel, nobody does?
R : Because sukkot is seven days.
bobp : how is that related to why in the diaspora, some sit and some don`t sit. Whereas in Israel, nobody sits?
R : In the diaspora , where there is a question whether the 8th day is really the 7th day, some sit in sukkahs just in case. Others say it is not right to take away from thehonor of a festival day by saying maybe it is only a chol hamoedday.
bobp : so, in the diaspora, succot is 7 and debatebly 8 ?
R : No sukkot is 7. But which are those 7, so there is some calendar ambiguity.
bobp : so when people say that pesach is 7 days in israel and 8 days in the diaspora, they are oversimplifying. It is really 7 days in israel and 7 days in the diaspora, but which 7 is a calendar ambiguity
R : That's right.
R : But it is easier to think of the 8th day as also pesach because there is no conflict wioth a separate occasion like with sukkot and shemini atzeret

added{
[coming to think of it,  I don`t know why he said it is 7 days in the diaspora! It is 8 .  In the diaspora, we keep each day for 2 days.. (or 2 sets of 7 days one a day ahead of the other! So 8 days in total!!)
This has no effect when chol hamoed goes onto chol hamoed. But it has an effect otherwise, like
- when yom tov goes onto chol hamoed ,we keep both by keeping it like yom tov, since yom to is stricter (hence pesach or succot we keep 2 days yom tov in the diaspora. 
- when a festival`s yom tov or chol hamoed goes onto a day that is not of that festival , so then we keep that next day as yom tov or chol hamoed, respectively.
It is completely logical, but it is hard to put the logic in one sentence or two. Probably because the logic is based on the logic of calendars.} 

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