Kahanist Singles > Jewish Singles
Do You Think Pants Are Modest For Women?
Just Erica:
--- Quote from: newman on January 28, 2008, 03:17:08 PM ---With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.
--- End quote ---
Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?
***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.
Dr. Dan:
--- Quote from: OdKahaneChai on January 28, 2008, 03:37:17 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 27, 2008, 10:12:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: OdKahaneChai on January 27, 2008, 10:03:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 27, 2008, 09:52:20 PM ---
--- Quote from: OdKahaneChai on January 27, 2008, 09:32:27 PM ---OdKahaneChai: Can you please explain, for a friend of mine, why a woman
is allowed to wear a blouse, but not pants?
OdKahaneChai: He contends that it's the same concept, and that the
Rabbonim are contradicting themselves
Rabbi Velvel: The reason Halachah discourages women from wearing pants
is because the pant garment more clearly emphasizes the women's body
outline as opposed to a skirt.
Rabbi Velvel: How can the same be said about the blouse?
Rabbi Velvel: Pants might be considered more suggestive and less
concealing then a skirt/dress
--- End quote ---
Not entirely true...Those skirts can look really pretty on a woman.....
--- End quote ---
Who said anything about looking pretty?
--- End quote ---
So this rabbi suggests that a woman wearing pants shows off the shape of her body better than a skirt. And the body can cause a man to stray from knowing the woman's brain.
However, if the pants are baggy or designed in such a way that it doesn't extentuate the body, it woud lhave to be permitted.
Therefore, it is not that pants are a man's clothing that a woman shouldn't wear it, but that she wearing pants may in fact compromise the modesty.
This type of modesty is a fence around the torah.
All i have to say is be careful of other fences that might come from this one..the next step might be wearing a burka, Gd forbid.
--- End quote ---
One is not allowed to cover the face.
--- End quote ---
what about shadore.
Dr. Dan:
--- Quote from: OdKahaneChai on January 28, 2008, 03:52:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 28, 2008, 01:11:28 PM ---
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 28, 2008, 08:43:29 AM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 28, 2008, 07:47:50 AM ---
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 28, 2008, 04:51:34 AM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 27, 2008, 09:50:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 27, 2008, 09:18:10 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 27, 2008, 08:54:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 27, 2008, 07:04:57 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 27, 2008, 06:57:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 27, 2008, 06:52:46 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 27, 2008, 06:39:30 PM ---
--- Quote from: OdKahaneChai on January 27, 2008, 03:05:14 PM ---
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 27, 2008, 02:32:23 PM ---
--- Quote from: OdKahaneChai on January 27, 2008, 11:19:29 AM ---
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 27, 2008, 02:30:38 AM ---
--- Quote from: There Are No 'Israeli' Arabs on January 27, 2008, 12:52:47 AM ---
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 26, 2008, 09:00:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: There Are No 'Israeli' Arabs on January 25, 2008, 11:58:15 AM ---
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 25, 2008, 03:40:09 AM ---
--- Quote from: Lisa on October 09, 2007, 06:07:51 PM ---I wear pants.
It all depends. Sometimes skirts can be modest or immodest. The same holds true for jeans.
--- End quote ---
I love pants. However , being a female who was once kicked out of a church for wearing pants :o, I'm more for women wearing them than ever. lol I wear long skirts and maybe shorter (knee-length) flowing skirts. I feel feminine in everything I wear though. (It's important though, being a Chicagoan and all...that I wear pants during the harsh winters. Looking pretty, or feminine isn't worth me freezing my touchas off. O0 )
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Can't you wear pants under your skirt?
--- End quote ---
No. lol I would wear a long winter coat or just wear pants to work.
--- End quote ---
But a skirt is more modest.
--- End quote ---
What, is that a male answer? LOL Come on now. I think some men are just threatened by women who wear pants. I don't know WHY but that's just strange. Anyway, I'd be more concerned with how long the skirt is (for my own taste) than whether wearing pants or not will make me look less pure.
I love skirts but I love having the freedom to choose whether I wear a skirt or something else.
--- End quote ---
It's not a "Male answer," it's G-d's answer. We follow His Word...
--- End quote ---
The Bible also said that women shouldn't cut their hair.
--- End quote ---
Show me where it says that. And I don't mean in the Goyishe "Bible," in Tanach...
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 27, 2008, 02:40:17 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 27, 2008, 01:56:23 PM ---How is a skirt more modest than pants?
--- End quote ---
Exactly, Doc. From what I read here, showing skin is immoral. This comment isn't against you, Dr. Dan but I think some men feel theatened when women wear pants... Remember, back in the days before women's rights and suffrage, men were the only people wearing pants. Women picked up the idea that they could wear pants also... for more practical reasons (because a lot of women worked in the fields and pants protected their legs). Now it's wrong? I think that's a sexist attitude.
Also, I want to point out that there is no section in the Bible that says "Woman! Thou shalt not wear pants!" From all of the religious pictures I've seen, I didn't even see MEN in pants. They wore robes. How many of you would actually walk out of your apartments/ houses right now, sporting the fashions of Israel, B.C.E. ? (Not that they were bad...) My point is that times change and people's tastes change with said times. Stop thinking that if a woman wears pants that she must be raging against the machine or something. Sometimes wearing pants is just what it is...wearing pants.
--- End quote ---
Pants are immodest because they show form, and because they're men's clothing, it has nothing to do with skin. And there is something in Tanach that says men can't wear women's clothing and vice versa.
--- End quote ---
For Jews or anyone who wishes to be modest, it is best to not wear any clothing that might make a man have a sexual desire to undress her, marry her, have sex with her, divorce her, all in a split second's thought.
Pants do not necessarily show the female figure more than a skirt. Sometimes it is the opposite..The reality is the bottom line...If i can look at the woman and not for a moment even imagine her naked, then she is dressed properly.
--- End quote ---
Men, understand something. Women have been kidnapped and raped wearing long night gowns, or baggy clothes under large winter coats. That proves that some men don't care WHAT a woman is wearing. They're going to think what they wish about her appearance. When little girls *shudder* or older women are kidnapped and raped or looked at sexually, it has nothing to do with their clothes. But it has everything to do with the fact that there are sick individuals just walking around as free as jay birds with sick thoughts in their heads.
--- End quote ---
Certainly in this instance you're right....but that's not the point we are making here.
We're talking about women walking around in public with their cleavage in the air. Forget about the insane people..It's the non-insane people...who may not act upon insanity, but lead them to do other things that are "unholy".
--- End quote ---
If they're following the Torah, I understand what you're saying but remember, the most powerful body part on a male OR female is their brain. Even if a woman is covered from head to toe, that doesn't stop even the most descent man from wondering what she looks like under their clothes. There are women who look at attractive men, then wonder what their children would look like if they got married. Fantasy isn't a bad thing..in fact, it's healthy. However, sick people can take fantasy to another level quicker than anyone else.
--- End quote ---
In my opinion, fantasies about other women while a man is married to his own wife isn't such a good thing..although I'm sure it happens to the best of every single one of us..female and male.
--- End quote ---
I never mentioned it being okay if a married male has fantasies about other women. A decent man doesn't always mean a married man.
--- End quote ---
So then you proved my point...A married man will still look..but if there are no opportunities to look he'll be better off and a better husband.
--- End quote ---
So if men were blind and stripped of the right to admire the beauty of a woman, they'd be better suited husbands? lol Women can look attractive in any way. Some men think women who don't wear makeup are attractive, while some men think that women who wear skirts are attractive. Is it wrong for a man to even think that a woman is attractive when he first meets her, or even sees her on the street?
--- End quote ---
That's not what I said. One can admire beauty...it's taking the beauty and making something sexual to it.
Some women are wholesome pretty with makeup wearing nice clothes..even pants...
Other women, distract attention from their face and brain to their cleavage or butt.
--- End quote ---
When did the discussion take a turn into inappropriate blouses and tight pants? I thought that some of you (not necessarily you, Dan) were against women wearing ANY kind of pants; even baggy pants.
--- End quote ---
Many Jewish religious and observant circles believe that women should wear skirts and men wear pants. This doesn't necessarily mean that this should apply to non-Jews...so you're in the clear, Erica.
The reasoning by some rabbis about the skirts are two that I know of. That pants are men's clothing and that cross-dressing is wrong. Jewihs women wear women's clothing and men men's clothing. The second one is that pants may extentuate the female form more than a skirt and therefore reduces her modesty.
NOt all rabbis feel this way, but I respect those who do feel this way.
The bottom line, i believe, to these rules is that:
1. Cross dressing can lead to confusion...Look at the trans sexuals today...the ones that do a good job of it look like women...and woa would be a man who gets attractd to that thinking it is a woman...not a good thing.
2. THe female form is very sexy and can potentially lead some men astray.
So these rabbinical rules are fences...
I'll give you an example...waiting for a subway there is a yellow line that no one should cross so that no accidents should befall them. Some people wait right behind the yellow line. HOwever, I wait far away from the yellow line. These Jewish fences are similar also.
--- End quote ---
Except for they're required.
--- End quote ---
Women are not required to wear skirts. They are required to cover their knees and elbows... Men are required to NOT where women's garb.
newman:
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 28, 2008, 05:17:10 PM ---
--- Quote from: newman on January 28, 2008, 03:17:08 PM ---With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.
--- End quote ---
Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?
***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.
--- End quote ---
1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.
2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.
Just Erica:
--- Quote from: OdKahaneChai on January 28, 2008, 03:37:17 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 27, 2008, 10:12:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: OdKahaneChai on January 27, 2008, 10:03:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 27, 2008, 09:52:20 PM ---
--- Quote from: OdKahaneChai on January 27, 2008, 09:32:27 PM ---OdKahaneChai: Can you please explain, for a friend of mine, why a woman
is allowed to wear a blouse, but not pants?
OdKahaneChai: He contends that it's the same concept, and that the
Rabbonim are contradicting themselves
Rabbi Velvel: The reason Halachah discourages women from wearing pants
is because the pant garment more clearly emphasizes the women's body
outline as opposed to a skirt.
Rabbi Velvel: How can the same be said about the blouse?
Rabbi Velvel: Pants might be considered more suggestive and less
concealing then a skirt/dress
--- End quote ---
Not entirely true...Those skirts can look really pretty on a woman.....
--- End quote ---
Who said anything about looking pretty?
--- End quote ---
So this rabbi suggests that a woman wearing pants shows off the shape of her body better than a skirt. And the body can cause a man to stray from knowing the woman's brain.
However, if the pants are baggy or designed in such a way that it doesn't extentuate the body, it woud lhave to be permitted.
Therefore, it is not that pants are a man's clothing that a woman shouldn't wear it, but that she wearing pants may in fact compromise the modesty.
This type of modesty is a fence around the torah.
All i have to say is be careful of other fences that might come from this one..the next step might be wearing a burka, Gd forbid.
--- End quote ---
One is not allowed to cover the face.
--- End quote ---
But to most men, faces are beautiful also. So what do you do about that? If a man can look at a woman's elbow and decide that the woman is beautiful, why can't he feel the same about her face?
My point is that putting sanctions on what a woman should or shouldn't wear is pointless because no matter what, a man will find something beautiful about her. She could be hajib'ed from head to toe but to some men, the way she walks is attractive also.
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