Poll

Is it okay?

Yes.
43 (71.7%)
No.
17 (28.3%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Author Topic: Do You Think Pants Are Modest For Women?  (Read 131905 times)

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newman

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #125 on: January 28, 2008, 07:04:29 PM »
Rabbis are not allowed to make any new Rabbinical decrees in our time (with rare exceptions like the Gadol Hador making one accepted by most of Israel) since there is no Sanhedrin.  Just about all Rabbincal decrees ever made are recorded in the Talmud.  Therefore, there is no "Rabbinical Decree" ever made specifically against wearing pants anywhere in the Talmud.  I don't know who made this nonsense up.  The only reason why it used to be forbidden was that it used to be a male's only form of clothing and this is a Torah prohibition.  Nowadays I see no logic why pants should not be allowed as more women wear pants than skirts in many areas.

Yes.

African men wear long 'dresses', so why aren't they banned as 'mens clothing'.

Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #126 on: January 28, 2008, 07:13:11 PM »
Rabbis are not allowed to make any new Rabbinical decrees in our time (with rare exceptions like the Gadol Hador making one accepted by most of Israel) since there is no Sanhedrin.  Just about all Rabbincal decrees ever made are recorded in the Talmud.  Therefore, there is no "Rabbinical Decree" ever made specifically against wearing pants anywhere in the Talmud.  I don't know who made this nonsense up.  The only reason why it used to be forbidden was that it used to be a male's only form of clothing and this is a Torah prohibition.  Nowadays I see no logic why pants should not be allowed as more women wear pants than skirts in many areas.
Yes.

African men wear long 'dresses', so why aren't they banned as 'mens clothing'.
And this custom is widely accepted?  ::)

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

newman

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #127 on: January 28, 2008, 07:20:14 PM »
Rabbis are not allowed to make any new Rabbinical decrees in our time (with rare exceptions like the Gadol Hador making one accepted by most of Israel) since there is no Sanhedrin.  Just about all Rabbincal decrees ever made are recorded in the Talmud.  Therefore, there is no "Rabbinical Decree" ever made specifically against wearing pants anywhere in the Talmud.  I don't know who made this nonsense up.  The only reason why it used to be forbidden was that it used to be a male's only form of clothing and this is a Torah prohibition.  Nowadays I see no logic why pants should not be allowed as more women wear pants than skirts in many areas.
Yes.

African men wear long 'dresses', so why aren't they banned as 'mens clothing'.
And this custom is widely accepted?  ::)

By hundreds of millions of africans and Indians, yes.

In Scottland men wear kilts.

The point is; who is to say what constitutes 'mens' clothing and in what country does the Rabbinical ruling apply?

Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #128 on: January 28, 2008, 07:25:43 PM »
Rabbis are not allowed to make any new Rabbinical decrees in our time (with rare exceptions like the Gadol Hador making one accepted by most of Israel) since there is no Sanhedrin.  Just about all Rabbincal decrees ever made are recorded in the Talmud.  Therefore, there is no "Rabbinical Decree" ever made specifically against wearing pants anywhere in the Talmud.  I don't know who made this nonsense up.  The only reason why it used to be forbidden was that it used to be a male's only form of clothing and this is a Torah prohibition.  Nowadays I see no logic why pants should not be allowed as more women wear pants than skirts in many areas.
Yes.

African men wear long 'dresses', so why aren't they banned as 'mens clothing'.
And this custom is widely accepted?  ::)

By hundreds of millions of africans and Indians, yes.

In Scottland men wear kilts.

The point is; who is to say what constitutes 'mens' clothing and in what country does the Rabbinical ruling apply?
The Rabbis are to say what constitutes men's clothing, and you'd have to ask one of them if it applies in such countries (even though said garments are usually very different from skirts).

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

newman

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #129 on: January 28, 2008, 07:31:27 PM »
Rabbis are not allowed to make any new Rabbinical decrees in our time (with rare exceptions like the Gadol Hador making one accepted by most of Israel) since there is no Sanhedrin.  Just about all Rabbincal decrees ever made are recorded in the Talmud.  Therefore, there is no "Rabbinical Decree" ever made specifically against wearing pants anywhere in the Talmud.  I don't know who made this nonsense up.  The only reason why it used to be forbidden was that it used to be a male's only form of clothing and this is a Torah prohibition.  Nowadays I see no logic why pants should not be allowed as more women wear pants than skirts in many areas.
Yes.

African men wear long 'dresses', so why aren't they banned as 'mens clothing'.
And this custom is widely accepted?  ::)

By hundreds of millions of africans and Indians, yes.

In Scottland men wear kilts.

The point is; who is to say what constitutes 'mens' clothing and in what country does the Rabbinical ruling apply?
The Rabbis are to say what constitutes men's clothing, and you'd have to ask one of them if it applies in such countries (even though said garments are usually very different from skirts).

They are only as different from skirts as womens slacks are from male trousers.

I wonder if Jewesses are obliged to wear pants in a country where men wear skirt-type garments.

Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #130 on: January 28, 2008, 07:34:30 PM »
Rabbis are not allowed to make any new Rabbinical decrees in our time (with rare exceptions like the Gadol Hador making one accepted by most of Israel) since there is no Sanhedrin.  Just about all Rabbincal decrees ever made are recorded in the Talmud.  Therefore, there is no "Rabbinical Decree" ever made specifically against wearing pants anywhere in the Talmud.  I don't know who made this nonsense up.  The only reason why it used to be forbidden was that it used to be a male's only form of clothing and this is a Torah prohibition.  Nowadays I see no logic why pants should not be allowed as more women wear pants than skirts in many areas.
Yes.

African men wear long 'dresses', so why aren't they banned as 'mens clothing'.
And this custom is widely accepted?  ::)

By hundreds of millions of africans and Indians, yes.

In Scottland men wear kilts.

The point is; who is to say what constitutes 'mens' clothing and in what country does the Rabbinical ruling apply?
The Rabbis are to say what constitutes men's clothing, and you'd have to ask one of them if it applies in such countries (even though said garments are usually very different from skirts).

They are only as different from skirts as womens slacks are from male trousers.

I wonder if Jewesses are obliged to wear pants in a country where men wear skirt-type garments.
I highly doubt it, because there's still the Tznius issue.

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #131 on: January 28, 2008, 07:51:34 PM »
Re:  "...The point is; who is to say what constitutes 'mens' clothing...?"

Oh!  That's an easy one!

Consult Mr. Sheldon Lapidus, General Proprietor of Sheldon & Sons, Haberdashery for Big and Tall Men, 55804 1/2 Flatbush Ave., Atlantic City, New Jersey!

He will have the definitive answers!

Online Dr. Dan

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #132 on: January 29, 2008, 07:06:05 AM »
With western cities and transit systems full of raping muSSlims and blacks a lot of women feel safer in sturdy pants than a dress or skirt.
Newman, we have argued about this before. There are white rapists also and a lot don't seek out women wearing certain types of clothing... in the end rape isn't about what you have on, it's about an animal's power over you. Little girls are raped or molested every day, do you think it's because of the clothes they have on?

***ANYONE who has ever raped should not only be cut out from the rest of society but should have something 'cut off' in the process.

1/ I'm not saying clothes make any difference to a rapist. They'll go for a woman in a power suit just as quick as one in a mini skirt. I'm just saying some women feel more secure in jeans because access to their privates is harder for a would-be attacker.

2/ Do I have to explain statistics to you for the 100th time? There are far more balack rapists per capita than white as you well know. In europe the tiny (5%) muSSlim population account for over 50% of all rapes. I imagine the blacks of the USA have a similar showing in the rape statistics relative to there overall % of population.
I don't care, really because in reality, anyone who rapes is a threat to females and males everywhere. My point is that there are whites in the fold also who rape. I'm not going out looking for 5% of Muslim men to rape me, I'm looking out for ANY man who'd try.

You've missed the point as usual.

A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.

This is the 500th time I (along with Ze'ev, Bullcat and others) have had to explain this concept to you. Why does it not sink in?
You and your analogies...like I said, I'm not going out looking for black men or muslim men to rape me or my girls. I'm safeguarding them and teaching them to fear ANY stranger who may have thoughts of hurting them. Percentages aren't on my mind at this time. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of Muslims will rape me, a black man will try. As soon as I start thinking of which percentage of black or white men will rape me, a Muslim will try. I just choose to be leary of people I get bad vibes from..not necessarily someone of a certain race.

You're avoiding the issue.

Why did you say .......
Quote
There are white rapists also
?

What point were you trying to make?
Because you never bring up white rapists when we have these discussions. NEVER. You make it seem as though they don't exist. Give every evil rapist equal bashing.

That's like saying somebody complains about unreliable De Loreans but doesn't mention unreliable Toyotas. There's a reason.............. PROPORTIONALITY.

I repeat (and I'll keep repeating it 'til it sinks in):
Quote
A large % of pitbulls bite. A small % of poodles bite. Therefore we are more concerned about pitbulls than poodles.

A large % of russian Lada cars are lemons. A tiny % of Toyotas are lemons. Therefore we avoid buying Ladas in favour of Toyotas.

Get it?

So.................

Because a large% of black males rape, mug, stick-up and kill and a much much smaller % of whites   (                   "                     ), we are more cautious of blacks than whites.


And I'll keep saying THIS until it sinks in (which it never will). You make it seem as though the white men who rape aren't doing anything wrong because black men are raping more than they are. When you neglect to even bring ALL evil rapists into question, you make it seem as though one group is better than the other.

I don't have an issue with the statistics, I have an issue with you not adding EVERYONE who rapes in the same bunch.

That's an invention.

I NEVER said whites who rape are doing nothing wrong. I just don't mention them because there are not enough in % terms to worry about as far as generalisations about ethnicity go.

That's why jesse jackson was releved to see white kids behind him and not black ones. Now, I'm sure jesse would tell you there are bad white kids, too. But HE understands the concept of proportionality.



Get it now?

Here...If I'm driving in a predominantly black neighborhood, I'm goign to make sure my doors are locked...in a neighborhood that isn't like that...i admit, I might forget to check.

Either way, my car automatically locks itself whenever I'm driving.  I just double check when and if i'm in Newark NJ or Harlem...
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Just Erica

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #133 on: January 29, 2008, 06:40:45 PM »
I wear pants. 

It all depends.  Sometimes skirts can be modest or immodest.  The same holds true for jeans.
I love pants. However , being a female who was once kicked out of a church for wearing pants  :o, I'm more for women wearing them than ever. lol I wear long skirts and maybe shorter (knee-length) flowing skirts. I feel feminine in everything I wear though. (It's important though, being a Chicagoan and all...that I wear pants during the harsh winters. Looking pretty, or feminine isn't worth me freezing my touchas off. O0 )

Can't you wear pants under your skirt?
No. lol I would wear a long winter coat or just wear pants to work.

But a skirt is more modest.
What, is that a male answer? LOL Come on now. I think some men are just threatened by women who wear pants. I don't know WHY but that's just strange. Anyway, I'd be more concerned with how long the skirt is (for my own taste) than whether wearing pants or not will make me look less pure.

I love skirts but I love having the freedom to choose whether I wear a skirt or something else.

I don't care what you wear. You are not Jewish, therefore the laws of modesty do not apply to you. The issue here isn't so much the Torah prohibition against crossdressing, it is the prohibition against immodesty on both men and women. Tight-fitting skirts or pants are also prohibited.

Second, I'm not threatened by women who wear pants. If you want to look like a man, go ahead. If that's the way you want to express your feminist liberation, by all means.
There is the sexist in you. I don't wear pants to look like a man. That's why women have slacks that cater to their body type. Pants aren't a MAN thing... everyone should have the right to wear pants if they want to. I look feminine in pants.

No, there's the gentleman in me that wants to see a woman take on a more feminine look and identity. In addition, I also do not want to see an outline of some of a woman's lower body parts. I despise short shorts and skirts and think they are sick. And it is not proper to go to a beach where the sexes are together, just like it's not proper to look at you, G-d have mercy, in your bra and underwear. I also practice a level of ahabath yisrael, loving your fellow Jew, in that I try my best not to look at the body of a Jewish girl that is dressed immodestly, for her sake in addition to mine.
It's improper to dress in a swimsuit while at the beach? What is proper attire for the beach in your opinion?

kellymaureen

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #134 on: February 01, 2008, 12:56:45 AM »
I think some men look GREAT in a kilt ;)
I had to wear one to school and I dont think I looked like a man

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #135 on: February 01, 2008, 01:09:41 AM »
I think some men look GREAT in a kilt ;)
I had to wear one to school and I dont think I looked like a man

I am proud when we have the Highland games and I see the Scotsmen in Kilts.  O0

Its an honor to wear the tartan  ;)

And I can just imagine a wee bonny Scot being told to remove thy kilt  :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D

YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!!  8;)

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #136 on: February 01, 2008, 01:19:49 AM »
I think some men look GREAT in a kilt ;)
I had to wear one to school and I dont think I looked like a man

I am proud when we have the Highland games and I see the Scotsmen in Kilts.  O0

Its an honor to wear the tartan  ;)

And I can just imagine a wee bonny Scot being told to remove thy kilt  :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D

YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!!  8;)

I know. It ROCKS!
I also live a man in a kilt. They DO look GOOD as Kelly said.
Too bad I'm not Scotish or Irish. My ancestors come from England (we were the bad guys in Braveheart, lol )

 I thought about asking  this because some people were saying that women should not wear pants because we cannot dress like men. SO...I was curious if they would have an issue with us wearing kilts. Would it be forbidden for the sake of us not "dressing like men"? 
I can't wait to hear what people think about this. So curious!  :D

LOL true I want to see if they know there Scottish history  :::D :::D

The history of the Kilt  ^-^

Online Dr. Dan

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #137 on: February 01, 2008, 08:49:54 AM »
a Jew should not be in a mixed beach.

This is so true. I hate the beach first of all, and I hate wearing bathing suits period. I just don't like it. If I go to the beach, I just wear regular clothes.
Even if I went to an all women beach or swimming pool, I still could not wear a bathing suit. I don't like how its all skin tight and shows legs and sometimes the back is exposed. Even if the only ones who would see me are other women it doesn't matter to me, because I'm in the open air, under the sky and it just doesn't feel right to be so exposed anywhere like that. But that's just me.
 And when you get out of the beach, you get all sandy. Ugh I don't like it.

----------------------------
I also just thought of something...people here were giving great responses on whether its ok for women to wear pants or not.
What about the other way around, when a man wears a Kilt. Its a cultural thing. So are women not allowed to wear a kilt then? To avoid dressing like the opposite sex?

What about when a man wears the long skirts...that are also a cultural thing like these men:
Would they be forbidden for women to wear for the sake of not dressing like men?
I'm curious and just thought about it.

Also, a kilt wearing Celtic (yey) man:


Actually, I know that some (single) Orthodox women when they go to a public pool they go in with all of their clothes on...like a body suit but the suit is a skirt.  When I was in Isael this summer, at our hotel, the observant women would do that.

Certainly, it's a fence of modesty which is acceptable..

But getting wet like that in all that clothes is still pretty hot...can create more of an imagination for the man with what's underneat all that.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Online Dr. Dan

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #138 on: February 01, 2008, 09:04:26 AM »
I think some men look GREAT in a kilt ;)
I had to wear one to school and I dont think I looked like a man

I am proud when we have the Highland games and I see the Scotsmen in Kilts.  O0

Its an honor to wear the tartan  ;)

And I can just imagine a wee bonny Scot being told to remove thy kilt  :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D

YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!!  8;)

I know. It ROCKS!
I also live a man in a kilt. They DO look GOOD as Kelly said.
Too bad I'm not Scotish or Irish. My ancestors come from England (we were the bad guys in Braveheart, lol )

 I thought about asking  this because some people were saying that women should not wear pants because we cannot dress like men. SO...I was curious if they would have an issue with us wearing kilts. Would it be forbidden for the sake of us not "dressing like men"? 
I can't wait to hear what people think about this. So curious!  :D

I think the Torah prohibition is that men and women should not cross dress...or dress in such a way that a man might take a nother woman for a man or vice versa...and like wise with women the same way.

In other words, it's not good to try to look like the opposite sex because it can create confusion.

And so the Rabbis built additional fences so that a man or woman is no where near being confused for the opposite sex.

With these fences we have to be careful of what the actual Torah reason is for a certain commandment and not make a new commandment out of it. That's just my two cents.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #139 on: February 01, 2008, 09:06:33 AM »
I think some men look GREAT in a kilt ;)
I had to wear one to school and I dont think I looked like a man

I am proud when we have the Highland games and I see the Scotsmen in Kilts.  O0

Its an honor to wear the tartan  ;)

And I can just imagine a wee bonny Scot being told to remove thy kilt  :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D

YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!!  8;)

I know. It ROCKS!
I also live a man in a kilt. They DO look GOOD as Kelly said.
Too bad I'm not Scotish or Irish. My ancestors come from England (we were the bad guys in Braveheart, lol )

 I thought about asking  this because some people were saying that women should not wear pants because we cannot dress like men. SO...I was curious if they would have an issue with us wearing kilts. Would it be forbidden for the sake of us not "dressing like men"? 
I can't wait to hear what people think about this. So curious!  :D

I think the Torah prohibition is that men and women should not cross dress...or dress in such a way that a man might take a nother woman for a man or vice versa...and like wise with women the same way.

In other words, it's not good to try to look like the opposite sex because it can create confusion.

And so the Rabbis built additional fences so that a man or woman is no where near being confused for the opposite sex.

With these fences we have to be careful of what the actual Torah reason is for a certain commandment and not make a new commandment out of it. That's just my two cents.

But you are aware the kilt is not a womans dress. It was solely a mans. So they are not dressing as a woman.

Online Dr. Dan

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #140 on: February 01, 2008, 09:34:47 AM »
I think some men look GREAT in a kilt ;)
I had to wear one to school and I dont think I looked like a man

I am proud when we have the Highland games and I see the Scotsmen in Kilts.  O0

Its an honor to wear the tartan  ;)

And I can just imagine a wee bonny Scot being told to remove thy kilt  :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D

YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!!  8;)

I know. It ROCKS!
I also live a man in a kilt. They DO look GOOD as Kelly said.
Too bad I'm not Scotish or Irish. My ancestors come from England (we were the bad guys in Braveheart, lol )

 I thought about asking  this because some people were saying that women should not wear pants because we cannot dress like men. SO...I was curious if they would have an issue with us wearing kilts. Would it be forbidden for the sake of us not "dressing like men"? 
I can't wait to hear what people think about this. So curious!  :D

I think the Torah prohibition is that men and women should not cross dress...or dress in such a way that a man might take a nother woman for a man or vice versa...and like wise with women the same way.

In other words, it's not good to try to look like the opposite sex because it can create confusion.

And so the Rabbis built additional fences so that a man or woman is no where near being confused for the opposite sex.

With these fences we have to be careful of what the actual Torah reason is for a certain commandment and not make a new commandment out of it. That's just my two cents.

But you are aware the kilt is not a womans dress. It was solely a mans. So they are not dressing as a woman.

precisely.  In the scottish culture, this is men's clothing.  Nobody can mix this male celt with a woman.

But literal cross dressers..Men who wear dresses, wear wigs, stuff their boobs to appear as women..well, that's prohibited..
Or women who cut their hair really short, where a suit and a tie, put a mustache over their face, hide their chest...well that's prohibited..

And to build a fence around it, I belive the rabbis had to really extend it further out all the way to the point that men not wear anything that was female and that females not wear what is male, including pants so that niether would come close to even breaking the actual rule.

Somteimes it APPEARS to me that some very religious jews make the actual rabbinicial fence the commandment..without going straight to the bottom line of what Gd actually meant in the Torah.  i have no problem with fences if it is meant to keep those from coming close to the sin..that's the whole point of the fence..to keep one far away from screwing up.  However, it seems that some make the fence the actual rule from the Torah.

My take is that some get tempted more easily than others and therefore they need a fence that is 10 miles wide while others need a fence 100 yards wide.  Howver, everyone shoudl have a fence just to be safe.

Like being addicted to cigarettes and knowing it's bad to smoke.  Some are tempted to smoke by the smell of the cigarettes and therefore stay in another room to not smell it, while others are soooooooooooooo tempted, that they will not stay in the same building as someone smoking a cigarette (obviously that's an exagerration..however, I think you see my personal point of view)
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #141 on: February 01, 2008, 09:48:10 AM »
Fence sitters always give me the pip, but its up to them. BTW you are in fine form today, with lots of examples 

But since its 2am I say good night, and allow you to continue.  ;)

Oh and yeah the kilt is not a piece of clothing, it first was the blanket the soldiers used for bedding. Because they come from mainly the highlanders the needed two hands to battle the country side and then the enemy, and it was easier to wrap it about them instead of carrying it. Each part of a highlanders dress was to allow quick and easy travel.

Very Clan had its own pattern and colours, so they could tell each family from a distance.

William Wallis was famous for the Braveheart cry, because the enemy couldn't understand where these men had come from because no camps and been located days before. They believed the men rose from the land itself.

Aye I'm a wee bonney Lassie, well the other half of me anyway  :::D





Online Dr. Dan

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #142 on: February 01, 2008, 09:55:35 AM »
Fence sitters always give me the pip, but its up to them. BTW you are in fine form today, with lots of examples 

But since its 2am I say good night, and allow you to continue.  ;)

Oh and yeah the kilt is not a piece of clothing, it first was the blanket the soldiers used for bedding. Because they come from mainly the highlanders the needed two hands to battle the country side and then the enemy, and it was easier to wrap it about them instead of carrying it. Each part of a highlanders dress was to allow quick and easy travel.

Very Clan had its own pattern and colours, so they could tell each family from a distance.

William Wallis was famous for the Braveheart cry, because the enemy couldn't understand where these men had come from because no camps and been located days before. They believed the men rose from the land itself.

Aye I'm a wee bonney Lassie, well the other half of me anyway  :::D






interesting
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Online Dr. Dan

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #143 on: February 01, 2008, 12:36:06 PM »
I think some men look GREAT in a kilt ;)
I had to wear one to school and I dont think I looked like a man

I am proud when we have the Highland games and I see the Scotsmen in Kilts.  O0

Its an honor to wear the tartan  ;)

And I can just imagine a wee bonny Scot being told to remove thy kilt  :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D

YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!!  8;)

I know. It ROCKS!
I also live a man in a kilt. They DO look GOOD as Kelly said.
Too bad I'm not Scotish or Irish. My ancestors come from England (we were the bad guys in Braveheart, lol )

 I thought about asking  this because some people were saying that women should not wear pants because we cannot dress like men. SO...I was curious if they would have an issue with us wearing kilts. Would it be forbidden for the sake of us not "dressing like men"? 
I can't wait to hear what people think about this. So curious!  :D

I think the Torah prohibition is that men and women should not cross dress...or dress in such a way that a man might take a nother woman for a man or vice versa...and like wise with women the same way.

In other words, it's not good to try to look like the opposite sex because it can create confusion.

And so the Rabbis built additional fences so that a man or woman is no where near being confused for the opposite sex.

With these fences we have to be careful of what the actual Torah reason is for a certain commandment and not make a new commandment out of it. That's just my two cents.

precisely.  In the scottish culture, this is men's clothing.  Nobody can mix this male celt with a woman.

But literal cross dressers..Men who wear dresses, wear wigs, stuff their boobs to appear as women..well, that's prohibited..
Or women who cut their hair really short, where a suit and a tie, put a mustache over their face, hide their chest...well that's prohibited..

And to build a fence around it, I belive the rabbis had to really extend it further out all the way to the point that men not wear anything that was female and that females not wear what is male, including pants so that niether would come close to even breaking the actual rule.

Somteimes it APPEARS to me that some very religious jews make the actual rabbinicial fence the commandment..without going straight to the bottom line of what Gd actually meant in the Torah.  i have no problem with fences if it is meant to keep those from coming close to the sin..that's the whole point of the fence..to keep one far away from screwing up.  However, it seems that some make the fence the actual rule from the Torah.

My take is that some get tempted more easily than others and therefore they need a fence that is 10 miles wide while others need a fence 100 yards wide.  Howver, everyone shoudl have a fence just to be safe.

Like being addicted to cigarettes and knowing it's bad to smoke.  Some are tempted to smoke by the smell of the cigarettes and therefore stay in another room to not smell it, while others are soooooooooooooo tempted, that they will not stay in the same building as someone smoking a cigarette (obviously that's an exagerration..however, I think you see my personal point of view)

You are a Love Doctor, not a Rabbi. Instead of speculative theorizing on the intent of the modesty laws, why do you ask someone to open up for you a Shulhan Aruch or a Beth Yosef and see for yourself what the source is for these prohibitions? That goes for everyone here as well.

I understand that your pro-crossdresser conserved "rabbi" is not a legit source, but I'm sure there is a Chabad or some orthodox synagogue available around you to answer these questions.

I wasn't speculating or theorizing modesty laws. I was merely describing the prohibition against cross dressing and that it can lead to confusion of one's sex. I think that passage about the prohibition of men wearing women's clothing is written in Leviticus. This isn't speculation. Any human being can read the tanach and say, "Ah so...that makes sense."

Now as far as modesty...there is a Torah rule on modesty..I agree entirely with that. Immodest-ware can lead certain men to become more tempted and do evil things.  Some rabbis feel that pants are immodest on a woman. If this is your rabbi, then do as he is telling you.  but dont' impose your orthodox chabad rabbi on me...he's a human being like every other rabbi on this earth.

And my rabbi is not  a pro-crossdresser conserved rabbi..watch your mouth before you spit hate like that! SHAME ON YOU!
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #144 on: February 01, 2008, 01:43:02 PM »
What Jew would wear a kilt anyway?

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
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Online Dr. Dan

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #145 on: February 01, 2008, 01:46:51 PM »
What Jew would wear a kilt anyway?

very few if any.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #146 on: February 01, 2008, 01:48:28 PM »
What Jew would wear a kilt anyway?
very few if any.
So there ya go.  Problem solved...  ;)

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Online Dr. Dan

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #147 on: February 01, 2008, 01:52:01 PM »
What Jew would wear a kilt anyway?
very few if any.
So there ya go.  Problem solved...  ;)

Precisely..But the transexuals out there...wow..they really look like women...very very frightening these evil people.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Online Dr. Dan

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #148 on: February 01, 2008, 01:55:03 PM »
What Jew would wear a kilt anyway?

Yea Celtic converts! (like 5)

Welcome to the club!  We need some new genes added to our gene pool! ;)
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Online Dr. Dan

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Re: Is it okay for women to wear pants?
« Reply #149 on: February 03, 2008, 03:01:43 AM »
I think some men look GREAT in a kilt ;)
I had to wear one to school and I dont think I looked like a man

I am proud when we have the Highland games and I see the Scotsmen in Kilts.  O0

Its an honor to wear the tartan  ;)

And I can just imagine a wee bonny Scot being told to remove thy kilt  :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D

YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!!  8;)

I know. It ROCKS!
I also live a man in a kilt. They DO look GOOD as Kelly said.
Too bad I'm not Scotish or Irish. My ancestors come from England (we were the bad guys in Braveheart, lol )

 I thought about asking  this because some people were saying that women should not wear pants because we cannot dress like men. SO...I was curious if they would have an issue with us wearing kilts. Would it be forbidden for the sake of us not "dressing like men"? 
I can't wait to hear what people think about this. So curious!  :D

I think the Torah prohibition is that men and women should not cross dress...or dress in such a way that a man might take a nother woman for a man or vice versa...and like wise with women the same way.

In other words, it's not good to try to look like the opposite sex because it can create confusion.

And so the Rabbis built additional fences so that a man or woman is no where near being confused for the opposite sex.

With these fences we have to be careful of what the actual Torah reason is for a certain commandment and not make a new commandment out of it. That's just my two cents.

precisely.  In the scottish culture, this is men's clothing.  Nobody can mix this male celt with a woman.

But literal cross dressers..Men who wear dresses, wear wigs, stuff their boobs to appear as women..well, that's prohibited..
Or women who cut their hair really short, where a suit and a tie, put a mustache over their face, hide their chest...well that's prohibited..

And to build a fence around it, I belive the rabbis had to really extend it further out all the way to the point that men not wear anything that was female and that females not wear what is male, including pants so that niether would come close to even breaking the actual rule.

Somteimes it APPEARS to me that some very religious jews make the actual rabbinicial fence the commandment..without going straight to the bottom line of what Gd actually meant in the Torah.  i have no problem with fences if it is meant to keep those from coming close to the sin..that's the whole point of the fence..to keep one far away from screwing up.  However, it seems that some make the fence the actual rule from the Torah.

My take is that some get tempted more easily than others and therefore they need a fence that is 10 miles wide while others need a fence 100 yards wide.  Howver, everyone shoudl have a fence just to be safe.

Like being addicted to cigarettes and knowing it's bad to smoke.  Some are tempted to smoke by the smell of the cigarettes and therefore stay in another room to not smell it, while others are soooooooooooooo tempted, that they will not stay in the same building as someone smoking a cigarette (obviously that's an exagerration..however, I think you see my personal point of view)

You are a Love Doctor, not a Rabbi. Instead of speculative theorizing on the intent of the modesty laws, why do you ask someone to open up for you a Shulhan Aruch or a Beth Yosef and see for yourself what the source is for these prohibitions? That goes for everyone here as well.

I understand that your pro-crossdresser conserved "rabbi" is not a legit source, but I'm sure there is a Chabad or some orthodox synagogue available around you to answer these questions.

I wasn't speculating or theorizing modesty laws. I was merely describing the prohibition against cross dressing and that it can lead to confusion of one's sex. I think that passage about the prohibition of men wearing women's clothing is written in Leviticus. This isn't speculation. Any human being can read the tanach and say, "Ah so...that makes sense."

Now as far as modesty...there is a Torah rule on modesty..I agree entirely with that. Immodest-ware can lead certain men to become more tempted and do evil things.  Some rabbis feel that pants are immodest on a woman. If this is your rabbi, then do as he is telling you.  but dont' impose your orthodox chabad rabbi on me...he's a human being like every other rabbi on this earth.

And my rabbi is not  a pro-crossdresser conserved rabbi..watch your mouth before you spit hate like that! SHAME ON YOU!

The problem is that, like others here, it seems from your posts that are trying to construe the crossdressing prohibitions to somehow be related to the entirely separate modesty laws, such as the avoidance of wearing pants.

As far as your rabbi goes, I would never say such a thing without basis:

and so he want on to say we shoudln't turn away Jews..we shoudl accept them (as if Orthodox Jews turned away men who were admittedly homosexual which is absolutely false!!!)  and he went off on a tangent how the hebrew for abomination can also mean to be lead astray..etc etc.  and that he woudl be glad to marry two jewish men and allow them to adopt children etc etc... just went off on the whole thing...

Someone who says this on Yom Kippur really has issues.

Cross dressing is not related to modesty laws...they are two separate things...
I was referring to the women wearing pants as what i believed was the cross dressing rule and not the modesty rule...
You guys did shed some light on the modesty rule. I cannot come between you guys and this fence..Some people are tempted by looking at women's bodies and pants might show more to you guys..It doesn't to me, but that's fine.
However as cross dressing and pants on women?  once again, I will not dare come between your traditions on that and tell you that you are wrong. I agree that men shoudl only wear men's clothes and women, women's clothes...but it's the fine line...some need a certain type of fence. That's all.

As far as my rabbi...My concept of thinking doesn't come from this particular rabbi, but the one I had before him does.  And he has an interesting way of approaching Judaism that is different from many Orthodox Jews..Very thought provoking too..Not just going out and saying, "oh Rabbi so and so said this on this parsha on this chapter on this page and therefore..."  I think it's a good thing to have that in one's education. HOwever, as Jews, we have to be careful not think too much like robots, but sometimes questions what we are reading and learning and seeing everything in perspective.

Now with that current Rabbi on Yom Kippur...I believe he is very mistaken with what he is saying and being misleading.  Till this day, I want to go up to him and say, "what was your point? Are you trying to change the Torah because of current times? because, you konw, we aren't supposed to do that.  Maybe perhaps it's mistaken with what you said.  That in reality times have gotten worse and we need to return to Torah."
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein