Ben Gvir betrayed by politicians he praised; Yigal Amir's wife runs for Knesset

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Even if Rabin was a pursuer, the Israeli voters could have removed him by electing a new official.

What if Israeli voters did not remove him? After all, Israeli voters elected him in the first place, so there was certainly a reasonable chance that they would elect him again.

This same argument would be used against someone who would assassinate Hitler in 1932: Why not give the German people the chance to vote against him? We all know what happened to the 6 million Jews who depended on the German people to reject this madman.

Moreover, the Israeli election was scheduled to take place the next year (1996). In the meantime, Rabin was signing agreements with the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat to surrender more sacred Jewish land and was offering to surrender the Golan Heights to Nazi Syria. As a result of these treasonous policies, Jews were being murdered on a regular basis and all of Israel was placed in grave jeopardy.

[Hrvatski Noahid]

בס''ד

What if Israeli voters did not remove him? After all, Israeli voters elected him in the first place, so there was certainly a reasonable chance that they would elect him again.

This same argument would be used against someone who would assassinate Hitler in 1932: Why not give the German people the chance to vote against him? We all know what happened to the 6 million Jews who depended on the German people to reject this madman.

Moreover, the Israeli election was scheduled to take place the next year (1996). In the meantime, Rabin was signing agreements with the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat to surrender more sacred Jewish land and was offering to surrender the Golan Heights to Nazi Syria. As a result of these treasonous policies, Jews were being murdered on a regular basis and all of Israel was placed in grave jeopardy.

As you see, the situation is too complicated to clearly justify the application of the law of the pursuer.

If Rabin's policies endangered their lives, there is reason to believe that Israeli voters would have elected someone else.

As far as I know, Nazi Germany was a one-party state, so it was impossible to remove Hitler through elections.

In the end, Hashem will consider Amir's actions according to His true understanding of the situation.       

[Israel Chai]

I removed my previous comment.

I agree with with this.

He had to die then right before he could cause lots of other Jews to die. Some of his blood is on the hands of Jews that supported him and thus put him in this position. Giving land to Arabs so they stop killing just Jews but not each other and everyone else. Someone who believes that is mentally retarded. It's like voting for Greta to be leader. You're going to have to kill her when she starts lighting oil execs alive in plastic, but it's your fault she's dead for voting for her.

[Noachide]

He had to die then right before he could cause lots of other Jews to die. Some of his blood is on the hands of Jews that supported him and thus put him in this position. Giving land to Arabs so they stop killing just Jews but not each other and everyone else. Someone who believes that is mentally retarded. It's like voting for Greta to be leader. You're going to have to kill her when she starts lighting oil execs alive in plastic, but it's your fault she's dead for voting for her.

I'm little more sensitive to this topic, because we had a same situation in my country when prime minister Zoran Đinđić was killed. I'm of opinion he was a good prime minister. Maybe Rabin was a bad person but I think everthing could be solved politically.

[Dr. Dan]

In the end, Hashem will consider Amir's actions according to His true understanding of the situation.     

exactly!!  Even if in Heaven it was against the rules for him to do that, him serving time in jail and learning Torah will undo the heavenly punishment.

[Zelhar]

Yigal Amir murdered Rabin. He is guilty in every respect.

When Arab Gentiles accept the Seven Noahide Commandments, they will prove their loyalty to Israel.

Are you sure that Yigal Amir was not guilty? Are you talking about guilt in the eyes of Heaven or guilt before a court of law? According to my Torah sources, Amir is guilty in the former and not guilty in the latter.

[Hrvatski Noahid]

Yigal Amir murdered Rabin. He is guilty in every respect.

There is no objective standard of morality in your godless worldview, so how do you expect us to see your comment as anything more than your subjective opinion?

[JudasMaccabeus]

בס''ד

Yitzchak Rabin yimach shmo vezichro was a mass murderer of Jews. He murdered 16 Jewish heroes on the Altalena in 1948 in cold blood. Rabin as Prime Minister murdered hundreds of Jews with his Oslo policies. Furthermore, his treasonous policies endangered Israel's very survival.

Authentic Torah Judaism is not like Christianity or modern Western humanism. Judaism has din rodef (the law regarding a pursuer of Jewish blood).

We have the same earlier sacred books, and we do draw a distinction between personal forgiveness and mercy, and showing no mercy towards the enemies of G-D and the Nation, like the Maccabees of old. Of course distinctions need to be made, rational practical and prudent decisions, etc...

[Israel Chai]

Yigal Amir murdered Rabin. He is guilty in every respect.

You don't ascribe to the position that he's innocent due to police entrapment?

[Zelhar]

You don't ascribe to the position that he's innocent due to police entrapment?

I am speaking from a perspective of the law as I understand it. Even if the shabak agent Avishay Raviv incited Yigal Amir I don't think by Israeli law it means he is not guilty.
He willingly committed the crime and was of sound mind. To my understanding entrapment is a situation in which for example somebody asks
you can get him drugs or sex etc. and tempts with money to agree and receive money. So maybe if the situation was that Raviv asked Amir to assassinate Rabin and Amir 
agreed and received weapon etc. to commit the crime, at that point that may be still entrapment
for conspiracy to commit murder or whatever. Once he actually committed the crime in my opinion, and I think the law's as well, he is guilty of murder.
I also think the involvement of the shabak and Raviv should be fully publicly disclosed.

In my godless perspective indeed at the end of the day the law is enforced by force or threat of force and is not voluntary. We try to devise methods and means to allow society to control the legal system
and rule of law to the benefits of the individual, and give the individual means to make their case and fight injustice and not be subject to whimsical enforcement etc, but it's far from perfect.

If you perceive leader X is 'like Hitler' then in your perspective maybe its justified to take him out by any means.  I think "mortem omnibus tyrannis" is in the right direction in this case.
But Rabin was not a tyrant. So it's just the perceived danger that he posed that might justify assassination. By that logic should rabbi Akiva have been assassinated because he lead us to a huge national disaster.

You don't ascribe to the position that he's innocent due to police entrapment?

[Israel Chai]

I am speaking from a perspective of the law as I understand it. Even if the shabak agent Avishay Raviv incited Yigal Amir I don't think by Israeli law it means he is not guilty.
He willingly committed the crime and was of sound mind. To my understanding entrapment is a situation in which for example somebody asks
you can get him drugs or sex etc. and tempts with money to agree and receive money. So maybe if the situation was that Raviv asked Amir to assassinate Rabin and Amir 
agreed and received weapon etc. to commit the crime, at that point that may be still entrapment
for conspiracy to commit murder or whatever. Once he actually committed the crime in my opinion, and I think the law's as well, he is guilty of murder.
I also think the involvement of the shabak and Raviv should be fully publicly disclosed.

In my godless perspective indeed at the end of the day the law is enforced by force or threat of force and is not voluntary. We try to devise methods and means to allow society to control the legal system
and rule of law to the benefits of the individual, and give the individual means to make their case and fight injustice and not be subject to whimsical enforcement etc, but it's far from perfect.

If you perceive leader X is 'like Hitler' then in your perspective maybe its justified to take him out by any means.  I think "mortem omnibus tyrannis" is in the right direction in this case.
But Rabin was not a tyrant. So it's just the perceived danger that he posed that might justify assassination. By that logic should rabbi Akiva have been assassinated because he lead us to a huge national disaster.

So a cop convinces a kid to kill a cop, really impressionable young guy, gives him the gun and loads it and the kid kills the cop that the cop told him to. I'm all for it's the cop's fault, but can we at least agree we reprimand the cop? It's worse than entrapment, they ran an organization to kill him and recruited him. In cases like this, you get the patsy to snitch and give up the leader. But the leader is you the cop. If that were legal the cops could run gangs everywhere and a hundred other equally stupid things.

[Hrvatski Noahid]

I revisited this discussion because Chaim mentioned Yigal Amir in the newest video. I want to give the specific sources of my arguments for my own reference and for the benefit of others:

"If a person committed homicide because another person was threatening his life (or limb or severe torture), this killer has committed an offence and is a murderer and will be punished by Heaven. However, a court of law does not have permission to punish him, because he was severely pressured" (the Divine Code by Rabbi Weiner, Second Edition, p 403, citing Rambam, Laws of Kings 10:2).

"It is not permissible to save someone by killing his pursuer unless this is the only way to save the victim. If it is possible for one to save the victim without killing the pursuer - for example, by appeasing him or confusing him with words, or by wounding him, as by cutting off his hand or foot - and instead he killed the pursuer, this considered murder with liability to capital punishment" (the same, p 407, citing Rambam, Laws of Kings 9:4).

"Whoever bears the sin of murder without proper repentance is considered an absolutely wicked person (and he has no portion in the World to Come), and not even the sum total of all the Divine service and good deeds that he accomplishes in his life can outweigh the gravity of this sin" (the same, p 462-463, citing Proverbs 28:17, Rambam, Laws of Murderers ch. 4 and Laws of Repentance 3:6).

"Some topics apply to both Jews and Gentiles, but this book only comes to teach the Noahide Code. Thus, Jews should not use this text to determine their own obligations, which are more restrictive and numerous" (the Divine Code by Rabbi Moshe Weiner, Ask Noah International, 2018, p 22).