The Bermuda Triangle and The Existince of an Overseas Solomonic Empire

[Lubab]

Last week on Ask JTF someone (I think it was Sarah) asked about if the Torah had anything to say about the Bermuda triangle.

While there is no direct reference I'm aware of to this specific area, it is interesting to note that Rashi on Talmud Berachos 8A says that "there are parts of the ocean that do not tolerate metal", and he goes on to say that sailors would somehow tie ropes to their ship to avoid this problem.

Could it be the magnetism from rocks at the bottom of the ocean pulling those ships down because of the METAL used on the bottom of the ship? Could that be what Rashi means "that parts of the ocean do not tolerate metal"?

Is this another example of the Torah being way ahead of the curve, while others are speculating about UFOs and other craziness?

I'm not looking for a debate (JDL4ever), I'm just throwing this out there.

There is a book written about what the Torah says about this called: Nachalei Yosef, by Rabbi Ba-Gad,
if anyone is really interested.

[Maccabi]

this is interesting but doesn't seem very specific.

maybe it could also refer to the constitution of the water which affects the metal?

Also, the bermuda triangle supposedly affected many airplanes too, and these are way above the water.

It does make sense that some areas of the ocean won't tolerate metal on ships.

Were early Jews sea-faring people at all? 

Were there lots of boats around in the days of Noah's arc?

I usually associate most of sailing as a European thing.

I am curious about the timetable of the invention of boats/sailing.  I guess oar boats were probably around for many years before sails were invented (capable of transatlantic voyages)

I have dreams about being on boats a lot.  I think this is odd because I have not spent much time on any sort of boats and am not nautical.

[Maccabi]

An absurd superstition is an “old wives’ tale”:

I'm not sure the Bermuda triangle is...but I somehow doubt there is refernce to it in the Torah

[Sarah]

I was just thinking about this lubab and if it is mentioned in the Torah then why haven't scientists even attempted to research such a thing and identify the triangles mysteries because it is still unexplainable!

Have you ever heard about the two seas, one with sweet water and the other with salty water, meeting at a point yet never mizing together? Is there such thing in the Torah?

[Lubab]

I was just thinking about this lubab and if it is mentioned in the Torah then why haven't scientists even attempted to research such a thing and identify the triangles mysteries because it is still unexplainable!

Have you ever heard about the two seas, one with sweet water and the other with salty water, meeting at a point yet never mizing together? Is there such thing in the Torah?

Oh there's lots of stuff in the Torah the sceintists haven't discovered yet! Maybe I'll post about them later.

I do believe scientists have looked into the notion of examining the rocks down there, but they keep going with ships that have metal on them which is very dangerous obviously.

I'll ask my Rabbi about the 2 seas question and get back to you. I have heard of this, but I want to give an informed response.

[Lubab]

this is interesting but doesn't seem very specific.

maybe it could also refer to the constitution of the water which affects the metal?

Also, the bermuda triangle supposedly affected many airplanes too, and these are way above the water.

It does make sense that some areas of the ocean won't tolerate metal on ships.

Were early Jews sea-faring people at all? 

Were there lots of boats around in the days of Noah's arc?

I usually associate most of sailing as a European thing.

I am curious about the timetable of the invention of boats/sailing.  I guess oar boats were probably around for many years before sails were invented (capable of transatlantic voyages)

I have dreams about being on boats a lot.  I think this is odd because I have not spent much time on any sort of boats and am not nautical.

One of the 12 tribes (Sons of Jacob) was called Zevulun-his tribe's business was they were seamen. So I guess it was common back then.

One interesting thing that supports this hypothesis about the magnetism is that people always report that they're compasses go crazy over there. It could be that the magnetism causes the airplanes navigations systems to go bizerk and that's what brings them down.
Or maybe the magnetism is so strong it could pull them down from them there, I don't know.

Maybe I'll try to get a hold of that book.

[Hail Columbia]

I've heard Zevulun traveled to The Americas. That is why there are some American Indians in Central America who claim to be lost tribes. Ophir in The Bible may be America.

According to David ben-Ariel's site, Zevulun is supposed to correspond to today's Netherlands.

[Maccabi]

Everyone says Columbus discovered The New World which is not true.

Here is the order of things:

American Indians came via The Bering Strait Land Bridge to Alaska about 12,000 years ago (First people to arrive. They were Orientals.).

Orientals reached South America by boat about 6,000 years ago.

Phoenicians and Jews sailed to The Americas in Biblical times. My Earth Science teacher told me Phoenician remains were found in Maryland (First Caucasians to arrive.).

Vikings came to Greenland and Canada (First Europeans to arrive.).

I learned in History class in college that fishermen came to The World chasing after after cod for hundreds of years. These included Basque fishermen and Scandinavians. They reached down The Atlantic Coast up to New England. That is how American Indians knew English. That is how they knew how to communicated with The Pilgrims.

Christopher Columbus came to The Caribbean which made The New World known to the masses. It is a huge myth that he was the first European to discover America.

I would not be suprised if this was true.  To think that ancient people crossed the atlantic in a boat is amazing.  That is so adventurous it's unbelievable.  I'm kind of in awe of early sea-faring explorers.

[Maccabi]

this is some really fascinating stuff. and actually it all makes perfect sense.

it makes sense that egyptians started the aztec empires because the pyramids are very similar.

I wonder where the pygmie like tribes came from? maybe they were in modern s. america earlier and the people of the middle east mated with them eventually producing people who are dark skinned south americans now?

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Who got there first"

All of this conjecture is quite interesting, but is nothing new.

There is no shortage of archaeological anamolies worldwide.

However, Worlds In Collision, written by Jewish scholar Dr. Immanuel Velikovsky in 1950, provides evidence from every ancient peoples' written records and/or oral myths, which might indicate another plausible explanation as to why anthropological as well as geological artifacts from various ancient peoples and nations are found far from home home in places on our planet.

The theory that Egyptians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians sailed the world and settled the Americas thousands of years ago may be totally fallacious.

There is more than one way that cuneiform stone tablets, tools, jars, and yes; even entire boats, could find their way 6000 miles or more from their origins and to be buried deep in mud or sand, to be "discovered" and theorized over millenia later by academicians.

And...as I am always fond of telling various "Experts in their Field", who insist that only "such and such" could have...only "so and so" could have, I always say "After all is said and done, it always comes back to my famous Jewish Traveling Salesman Theory!--The theory that accounts for why imports and exports are found all over the world in unexplainable historic timelines!--Simply some old Jew in a canoe sailing around selling pots and pans and stone tablets."

A little humor:

When a university student, my earth science professor was offering the latest "proof" explanation of why the dinosaurs became extinct.

For at least 100 years, the very same academicians forced you to repeat verbatim the maxim that "climate change" killed off the cold-blooded reptilies.

Then, just recently, the "academic community" changed their party line to insisting all students repeat verbatim that "an asteroid hit earth and obliterated all life".

Then, adding insult to injury, some nitwit decided that "the dinosaurs weren't cold-blooded at all!...they were warm blooded just like us!".

Tired of being brainwashed with "the latest", I raised my hand and said "Professor, I am certain of what caused the dinosaur's sudden mysterious disappearance from earth."

"Go on"...she insisted.

"Well, ma'am, Aliens from Outer Space landed here, rounded all of them up just like cattle, herding them into gigantic ships, took them all to another planet in another world, and made Bar-B-Que out of them!"

"Why...That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard!"...she said, a disgusted tone in her voice.

"No offense, Professor"..."but it makes every bit as much, if not more sense, than all of the other things I've been hearing "the experts" tell me!"

[OdKahaneChai]

Yacov, where is that article that you said was posted on the Kahane.org forum?  I can't seem to find it there.  I realized you posted it here, but there are a few links in it I want to follow.

[ScotcH]

The White Man conquered America !! Him and only him ! He didn't need help and didn't need no wellfair...Umm-hmmm

The Bermuda Triangle is a Very MYSTERIOUS Place !  Perhaps it's a black hole opening up to a new WHITE World !!

If so...I'm on the next Ship to set sail !!

[OdKahaneChai]

It's on the old Kahane Forum.

I know that.  Can you post a link?

[Sarah]

Have you ever heard about the two seas, one with sweet water and the other with salty water, meeting at a point yet never mizing together? Is there such thing in the Torah?

Is that mentioned in The Muslim Nazi Koran too?

Yes it is mentioned and described as a barrier with different types of fish living on each side.

[Shlomo]

This thread is fascinating.

A lot of people just assume the ancients were idiots and only in more modern times are we more aware. It's quite the opposite, I'm afraid. The further we get away from the source... the more crazy we become. It's one of the main reasons that we have no more prophets.

[Sarah]

That is very true jeffguy and i blame technology!
The ancients were wise but also ignorant, what enabled them to be so at times is that fact that they were able to believe without questioning too much. They knew what was morally correct and didn't need the same teaching we do today.

[Lubab]

Have you ever heard about the two seas, one with sweet water and the other with salty water, meeting at a point yet never mizing together? Is there such thing in the Torah?

There is, but I've yet to locate it.
This is the closest thing I can come up with right now.

The tenth verse of the Torah states (Genesis 1:10)
10. And G-d called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas, and G-d saw that it was good.


The commentary Rashi writes:

"He called it 'seas' But is it not one sea? However, the flavor of a fish that comes up from the sea in Acre differs from the flavor of a fish that comes up from the sea in Spain. — [from Ekev 39]"

My friend I spoke to said there is a talmudic passage even more on point which is probably where the Nazi Koran got it from, but I haven't found where the quote is yet.
I'm going to ask another friend of mine when I see him.

New Edit: I once heard from a reliable source that the Nazi Koran was written with the help of an Italian JEW, as Mohomed was illeterate. This probably accounts for the basterdized resemblences to Talmudic passages that appear there.

[Lubab]

That is very true jeffguy and i blame technology!
The ancients were wise but also ignorant, what enabled them to be so at times is that fact that they were able to believe without questioning too much. They knew what was morally correct and didn't need the same teaching we do today.

I blame modern psedo-intellectuals. Today many of these folks feel that they make themselves into big geniuses when they take a superficial reading of an ancient passages and mock them.

They don't have the humility to think for a moment that what the Torah was saying might have been something deeper than the way they understand it.   

The ancients were not nerely as ignorant as these folks would have us believe.

They would have us believe that the first man was a caveman or better yet an ape and today we're the smart ones.

In fact the first man was Adam, who had more wisdom than all the generations that came out from him put together.

[Sarah]

Beautifully said lubab.

[Lubab]

Have you ever heard about the two seas, one with sweet water and the other with salty water, meeting at a point yet never mizing together? Is there such thing in the Torah?

Okay. With the help of my Rabbi I was able to locate where in the Torah it talks about the non-mixing of the salty and sweet water.
The quote we were looking for is in the Midrash. It's Midrash Rabba Parshat Korach (last weeks Torah portion) Parsha 18 Chapter 22.

The Midrash for those that don't know is one part of the written version of the Oral Torah handed down from Sinai, and ultimately written down before and around the time of the writting down of the Talmud in around the 5th Century.

In this section the Midrash is discussing the wisdom with which G-d created the world so it's all prepared to take care of humans and their needs. (it got on this topic by discussing that the hole which swallowed up Korach and his men was there from the beginning of creation).

It cites an anthoropomorphic "discussion" between the sea and G-d, when the sea was being created. G-d told the sea that all the waters would be one sea really, whereupon the sea "complained" and "said": "Master if so, my sweet waters will be mixed in with my salty waters, [lubab: it appears the sea was "complaining" that no one would be able to drink from it b/c the sweet waters it had would become contaminated by the salty one's"-to which G-d responded "No. Each one [of the waters] will have it's own domain"

The Midrash goes on to say that if you don't beleive that waters can be together without mixing, then just look at a person's head which contains several liquids that are all very close to eachother, and yet don't mix, as we see that the fluid that comes out of one's eyes, ears, mouth and nose are all very different and have different flavors, some salty some not etc.

Lubab: Now put this together with the quote above about the fish, and now you know where the Koran got it from.
It is truly a great wisdom in the world that there are parts of the ocean from which humans can drink and yet they don't get contaminated by the salty waters, when in fact all those seas do touch at some point. So there must be these natural barriers that block the flow at some point. And thank G-d for that.

[Lubab]

Last week on Ask JTF someone (I think it was Sarah) asked about if the Torah had anything to say about the Bermuda triangle.

While there is no direct reference I'm aware of to this specific area, it is interesting to note that Rashi on Talmud Berachos 8A says that "there are parts of the ocean that do not tolerate metal", and he goes on to say that sailors would somehow tie ropes to their ship to avoid this problem.

Could it be the magnetism from rocks at the bottom of the ocean pulling those ships down because of the METAL used on the bottom of the ship? Could that be what Rashi means "that parts of the ocean do not tolerate metal"?

Is this another example of the Torah being way ahead of the curve, while others are speculating about UFOs and other craziness?

I'm not looking for a debate (JDL4ever), I'm just throwing this out there.

There is a book written about what the Torah says about this called: Nachalei Yosef, by Rabbi Ba-Gad,
if anyone is really interested.

Update: My Rabbi never ceases to amaze me. Above I posted his speculation that the reason why Rashi says there are certain parts of the ocean that cannot "handle" metal-was because of rocks that have strong magnetism.

He was learning this Talmudic passage today and found that the commentary on Rashi known as the Rashash (Rabbi Shimon Strusher) says exactly this. On berachos 8a He says that what Rashi means is that the rocks down there act as very strong magnets which pulls the metal towards it.

This would even account for why sometimes planes went down-b/c when the magnetism throws off their navigation system (which was commonly reported to happen)-they would start to fly lower and then they would get pulled completely down.

I think this mystery is solved.

[Maccabi]

good explanation.  I think commentaries like this could be extremely useful today to help make Jews observant or at least more curious about the Torah.

[mord]

Where's the sambata river

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I was just thinking about this lubab and if it is mentioned in the Torah then why haven't scientists even attempted to research such a thing and identify the triangles mysteries because it is still unexplainable!

Have you ever heard about the two seas, one with sweet water and the other with salty water, meeting at a point yet never mizing together? Is there such thing in the Torah?

Sarah, I'm afraid you've been misled by Muslim charlatans because actually this is not in the Koran either, but some of them say it is in order to trick people into believing Islam!  I just saw a video on it the other day.